Over the years I have been on a continual quest for coming up with the "perfect" rifle for me. Its a journey, not a destination, but here is my current stop. It is a Kimber hunter in 6.5 creedmoor. As pictured, there is a Swaro Z3 3.5-10 scope with a 4a reticle. Rifle immediately went to a gunsmith to be cut to 16" and be threaded. Silencerco Scythe is mounted in picture. 6# 9oz. Should be firing factory 147 ELD-M's at around 2500fps. It has performed well on multiple pigs now. Furthest shot around 250 yards. Penetrated to resting just under the hide after going through both shoulder on a 75 pound or so boar.

So why am I here and where is left to go? Well the right answer to what is the "perfect rifle" is "it depends". It depends on what you want to do with it. I hunt a ranch here in Texas. Most shooting events begin with me riding in a buggy or a truck. The ability to deploy the rifle quickly is important. So I want it to be short to stick out a window or exit to get on foot. That is why the barrel is cut short to maintain a handy length while also wearing a suppressor. I also like to go for walks around the ranch looking for game. So it is not uncommon for me to walk 4-7 miles over the course of an evening. A light rifle with a good balance is important for those purposes.

The Kimber 84m is an action no longer than is needed for the Creedmoor rounds. The action itself is slimmed down to be lightweight. The stock from factory isn't my favorite but it is functional until I identify a better option. Balance and handling is phenomenal even with the suppressor. Below is a picture of the piece of barrel removed and the scythe with ocl mount and Hansohn brothers titanium end cap.






Less than 3 ounces gained by adding the suppressor vs leaving the barrel at factory length. Rifle still balances well and it is comfortable to shoot without hearing protection. Allows me to shoot faster vs having to put on ears to shoot. Also makes a light rifle well mannered when shooting.

I do not love the feeding's smoothness at this time, but it feeds reliably. The detachable magazine allows me to have a round chambered and three down. Magazine holds three but can chamber around, drop magazine and go plus 1. For myself, I rarely use more than 4 rounds before running out of shooting opportunities on pigs, but three is often times not enough. The factory bolt handle is too short. The chris84's titanium tactical bolt handle's added length helps significantly with all aspects of bolt manipulation. chris84 has agreed to make a longer version of his ascent style handle that I think will work with this rifle phenomenally. I look forward to getting some of those in. The bolt can bind a bit in factory form. The longer handle aids in pushing through that. I have also been talking with a smith about more significant changes to aid in that. Perhaps going so far as to add something akin to a pre-64 anti-bind lug. I will also likely go to an aftermarket stock of some variety with an internal magazine that holds at least four down.

The Kimber being CRF matters significantly to me. When I am hunting, I will usually be shooting at sounders of multiple pigs. I am manipulating the bolt as fast as I can. My rifles are usually dirty and dusty from riding and walking around a ranch in Texas. Mausers, Winchesters and so far the Kimbers do not fail to feed and more importantly do not fail to extract and eject. The faster and harder I work the bolt, the more extraction and ejection force I apply guaranteeing that empty case gets out of the way. I cannot say that about other action types I have used. I have had more failures caused by failures to fully extract and eject than by failures to feed. I also appreciate as a reloader being able to ease a spent case out with a crf action.

Kimber packs the most features for the money into a rifle that will work based on what I have found so far. However, I wish they would offer a broader caliber selection and would sell their rifles from their factory with a 16" threaded barrel. If the ATF continues to process form 4's at their current speeds, I believe suppressor use will continue to grow more ubiquitous. As people grow more familiar with suppressor use, I think the market will grow less tolerant of 20+ inch barrels. This is especially true when the current trends of smaller bore+higher section density bullets are proven more and more effective on game. I have found myself moving away from a 7mm bore diameter minimum. A smaller bore allows you to maintain enough velocity from a short barrel while still maintain a high enough section density for bullet performance. I have found the heavy ELD-M bullets from 6mm - 30 caliber to be nearly equally effective on pigs at least. I would have disagreed even a year ago that 6mm or 6.5mm were just as good. I haven't had the opportunity to test 223 bores as well yet, but I suspect I will find them to be sufficient at 77 - 88 grains.

I believe Kimber lengthening the factory bolt handle and adding 16" threaded barrel options to their Hunter line would go a long ways towards what they are making now being better. My wishlist would be for them to add a 223 or Arc cartridge scaled action with 223, 22 arc, and 6 arc options with 16" threaded barrels. No one is really making a stainless mini-action and selling it here in the US. Just look at the Howa stainless thread on this forum to see there is interest. I think that interest grows from here with the massive numbers of suppressors going out into shooter's hands right now.

I have 4 BGR’s. They sure feel good in my hands. I wish I’d discovered them years ago, even though some have issues. Mine shoot well.

The good news is if you want a ridiculously short barrel you can take the longer barrel and do just that to it.

I would say I am obviously aware of that fact based on photos of me doing just that above, but please define ridiculously short for me?

This rifle launches a 6.5mm 147 grain bullet at 2500 fps. This bullet will expand down to around 1800 fps. It doesn't drop below 1800 fps until after 600 yards. Not many need more initial velocity to shoot further. The muzzle blast is non-existent due to the suppressor. What factor makes 16" ridiculously short?

It would have been nice to be able to pick it up from the factory ready to go as I have it now. My argument here is, with suppressors becoming more and more common, why would it not make sense for a factory rifle to be offered to pick up that segment of the market?

I've not put a Montucky together,since yesterday and only had it out to 1300yds(147's at 2680fps). Hint.



Kimber is doing favors,by not getting cute and painting themselves into multiple corners. Montucky Morning today,like most others and had atmospherics to really stretch legs(OEM Ascent Kreed/147's,Custom 7" Lilja Speedmire/88's,Custom PN 9" Mouser/180's). Hint.



Let the niche,niche. Hint.

Just sayin'................

That's a good way to put it and I've been down that path. Had a Kimber and thought I was there, but decided it was too light to be an all-around rifle. I think they are great rifles that fill a specific role. I have some Winchester 70's and a Rem 700 with some modifications and sitting in McMillan Edge stocks, but they just don't get used as much anymore.

I'm 66 and a lot more of my hunting days are behind me than in front of me. I've settled on Tikka. Pick your favorite cartridge, 6.5CM, 7-08 or 308 and call it good. I have the 6.5 and 308. I had the 308 barrel cut to 19" and it does everything I need a rifle to do at minimal cost. Mine are blue and cost me under $600 each.

I knew it was gonna be a CM before even reading your post.

Hell the CM cartridge can be shot from a slingshot…..and remain deadly out to 1K yards! 😜. memtb

Way too short a barrel, hung a schitcan on it, and too big a scope.

“Let the niche, niche”. I hear you on that. I will grant you my use profile turns the dial up a bit more than most hunters with how often I carry a rifle and how hard I push them. However, I would say that my use comes closer to the common hunter and shooter than someone who shoots as long range as you do. However, I do strongly value your knowledge and opinion on lower velocity bullet performance as you have a lot that is relevant due to your shooting and hunting at longer ranges.

I would say there are more hunters who are shooting inside of, and most well inside of, 600 yards. So which shooter is more niche for NEEDING more velocity for the bullet to perform. The 6.5 creed isn’t really ideal for this concept. It’s just one of only two calibers Kimber offers right now. The 6mm creed or the 22 creed probably work better. The 6mm creed 108 ELD-m out of a 16” is going to be nearly 2700 fps.

The market as it exists may favor longer barrels, however I think the benefits of suppressors are so hard to deny, as they get more exposure as they are easier to obtain now than ever, a rifle optimized for their use is going to be the more attractive choice. At least for a significant segment. The primary downside will be for those looking to shoot truly long range. That segment is one that is prone to modifications to rifle to eke out ever more niche needs for performance.

I look forward to this. We are all slaves to the perspectives we have from our own experiences.

Again I will ask. Why is the barrel too short? How much more velocity do you need? That’s all that is gained by a longer barrel?

If you don’t like a suppressor, have you ever shot a rifle with one?

Too big of a scope? Well that’s fairly subjective. Do you mean by physical size or magnification? If magnification, I rarely have issues with maintaining targets in my field of view and I like to get close. Perhaps you need to try rifles that point more naturally for you if that’s an issue. If weight, I’m not aware of many with better optical quality for the size. If you know of some, point me to them. I hunt until well after sunset. Brightness is very important for my uses.

I require GOOD Riggin',simply because I'm hard on schit. I have no centerfire barrels shorter than 14"(XP-100) or longer than 30" and I'd be VERY fhuqking surprised if there was a contour that I've not bought,got or shot. Hint.

"Distance" is convenient excuse for Drooling Window Lickers. The ilk are easily discerned,due the schit base/rings/glass they embrace. Hint.

My toolbox isn't factored by Joe Average's "abilities",as few barometers of evaluation are fhuqking lower. I prefer static wares,because Murphy understands/heeds same. Hint.

Mechanics are of far greater concern to me,than contrived Emotions. Hint.

Just sayin'.................

^^^

Don’t sweat those that don’t run suppressors or much less carry them in the brush, in and out of vehicles, box blinds, Treestands, etc.

First, I’ve got an Adirondack in 6.5 in a Montana stock, that’s around 6# with sling, scope, suppressor, and ammo. There are days I’d cut that 18” factory tube to 16”. It’s likely one of the best shooting/hunting setups I have. Heck, I even had a 70 classic stainless in 270 chopped to 18” and threaded. It’s a much heavier setup, but shoots/hunts like a dream and is extremely quiet and easy to shoot well. I’ve got other, noodle barrel rifles, but they sit much more now. Next 308 or 7-08 I set up will be 16-17”, for sure. Anything longer is too long.

Not to slight The Haybale & Crockett Barbed Wire Fence Automated Feeder Gang,let alone their "version" of Topography,Vegetation or Atmospherics,that's as fhuqking farrrrr from fhuqking REALITY,as one could possibly get. Hint.

Pardon my shooting everything thus far cited,along with a schit load that has not. Hint.

Just sayin'..............

Ur the only dude I can think of that throws rifles in tha bushes 🤷‍♂️🤣🤣

The less one "knows","sees" and "does",then the lesser the "requirements"...as you obliviously quantify. Hint.

Fortunately for you,Emoji's are free,so even YOU can "afford" to "contribute". Hint.

Just sayin'............

As for a scope, to 250 yards half the magnification is way enough, and more versatile.

outkast arms will put it in a good stock if your looking

I've come around to "can's" over the last few years, and the Kimber platform is ideal for their application. Start out with a quite light rifle, cut the barrel, and screw on a can. Put a relatively heavy dialing scope on top and you're still well under 8lbs all-up weight.

Nice job, thanks for sharing. It's where I'm headed with tinnitus ringing in my ears as I type this...

You threading 7/16 with a 5/8 adapter?

I think an important point that may have been missed here is that there’s a segment of the market, not insignificant in size, that:

1) wants to hunt with a suppressor
2) wants a well balanced light rifle
3) wants a rifle with a reasonable OAL with suppressor
4) wants this in a CRF factory rifle

I don’t think it’s asking too much of manufacturers(well, primarily Kimber, with their Hunter line) to offer this. Just doing a 16” and threaded fixes this, even in the currently chambered cartridges. That said, I’d sure love to see the cartridges offered to expand with .22creed, 7mm08 and 358 win.

Well, that’s why the scope has a dial and a range of magnification. I like to have magnification to take a closer look at things sometimes. I usually keep it set around 5-6. But I rarely have binoculars, so often my scope is used for scanning at a distance.

I just bought an Adirondack in 300 blackout off here that a 2-7 Kahles is going on.

Kimber would DESTROY the Market,if they went Montucky 223(again)(2.500" COAL),22 ARC,22 Kreed',6 ARC and 6 Kreed'...all twisted 7" and 22" long. Hint.

Just sayin'...............

Always wanted a kimber 308

I like the looks of those stocks and they seem like quality, but most of my shooting is standing or kneeling. I’m different from most in that regard. I like a stock with a bit more drop. My ideal is going to be something close to a British express style made of carbon fiber.


I think close to 7 1/4 is doable following this pattern with a bigger scope. The picture is with steel handle. The titanium saves near an ounce.


1/2” threading with the OCL mount. 7/16 may have been better and then used the silencerco titanium 7/16.

I agree with you there. I would gladly accept them never offering a 16” threaded barrel if they had all those available. I can have a smith cut and thread (would just be nice not to have to).

I know you like the 88 gr ELD-M’s in the 22’s. What can you do with the 22 arc? Will it handle the 88 like the 6mm can do the 108’s?

Funny, Brad - I've got a touch of the tinnitus ringing away as I was reading your post! I've been thinking about cans since VT started allowing them for hunting last year.

Keechi_kid, Glad you're on one of those all too brief plateaus in the bi-polar cycle of your Rifle Loonyism. Enjoy it! It won't last...

Only you can decide what is perfect for you.

I shoot a goodly herd of 224 Grendel/ARC's,in both Turnbolts and Krunchentickers,as I do 243 Grendel/ARC's in same. Hint.

The .224" 88 has a .545 BC,the .243" 108 wears a .536 BC. The 40gr shift in mass,connects dots and makes the 88 plum fhuqking AMAZING. Hint.

To hang with a .224" 88,you need to go .243" 112gr .620 BC MB's. The 243 Grendel and 6 ARC arrange same,assuming 7.5" RPM or better(Howie). Hint.

As Utility goes,the 88's are without peer. Hint.

Just sayin'.........

I could see myself ending up with something very much like this. Much prefer the Montana stock to the Hunter stock, though.


Okie John

This!

I've been wanting a small stainless action like stick just spelled out for a while. I did snag 1 stainless mini grendel and it shoots well but I'm not sure the action itself is actually stainless it appears to be coated.

Someone needs to make a small body stainless mini action consistent enough for shouldered prefits. I'm thinking I'd like maybe a flat bottom with integral lug like a howa mini. A 3 lug 60 degree bolt similar to my cz 600 lux, the 2.5- 2.6" mag box room, compatible with rem 700 triggers, a flat ejection angle so you can mount a scope low and not bounce cases off the windage turrets. Stainless action body but a 1 piece 4140 dlc coated bolt. There were a few other ideas a few months back when some of us were posting about it.

It'd probably easier not to build the feed rails into the action but let them be part of the mag box so they could be tuned or have different mag boxes for different rounds. I need to get a Jefferson bdl box to see how he does it for the minis but I always miss them when he gets more made up.

I don't think it needs to have a bunch of extra cuts to lighten it to keep the cost down. There's a big cnc shop in Idaho Falls that does a lot of production for a bunch of different industries. They had several 4 and 5 axis machines all running making airsoft gun parts last time I was in there. I didn't count but there were at least 20 machines each the size of a small suv all cranking stuff out in just 1 of their rooms.

They said most of the cost is the prototype and set up costs but that once the design is dialed in if designed for efficient machining they could be cranked out fairly quickly and substantial cheaper than I might guess. They said over the last few years the precision and speed of their newer machines have increased dramatically.

Unfortunately whenever I mention the idea to anyone in the gun industry they don't think that such an action would sell. Legacy guys recently told me they only brought in a few stainless minis from their sister company this 1 time because there's no demand for stainless rifles in the US. They said they sell way more blued guns than they do stainless. I said maybe thats because you don't make any stainless ones. Defiance told me that they don't need a smaller action because the anti was already available and it's light enough. I told them it could be shorter with a shorter smaller footprint for a smaller round. The others like kelbly and zermat I've spoke with have basically said there's enough Remington clones already and the only real market is with the competition shooters who want sturdy actions etc etc.

I really think the time is right for a good stainless mini action especially with the 6mm and 22 arc out now. I guess we'll just have to wait long enough and pound the industry with requests for long enough that one morning one of them will finally wake up and go hey, I just had a great idea.

Bb

Tell us you've never tried a setup like this without telling us you've never tried a setup like it.


Keechi_Kid - very nice setup you've got there. While it might not quite perfection in your eyes, it looks pretty solid from here.

I’m wondering just how much of the bolt action buying market is gonna prop up that entire market by buying 22-6mm (perceived as mainly paper or varmint territory), high BC/LR optimized, lightweight 22” sporter, un-threaded, >$1k bolt actions? Wonder how much of that market is for the same lightweight hunting rifles in generally accepted medium game chambering from 6.5-308, and handier barrel lengths for hunting use and/or suppressor use? Wonder how many load, shoot past 300, or care about how long of a 223 bullet they can fit in a magazine box? Is there a niche for a stainless, mini action, with good twist and mag box? Sure. I’d likely fit in there somewhere, for a specific use. I figure it’s TINY, vs the rest of that market right now.

I get that the majority still don’t own suppressors….yet. Those that don’t have their reasons. There’s also a portion that can’t get approved, even though they can own firearms under NICS. I’m not pushing my wants/bias/use on anyone else, just speaking to possible market from my turkey lounger.

A tiny stainless CRF will sell. Kimber could shorten theirs and I’d be satisfied! The new hotness is small cartridges, I don’t care what anyone says. One of my favorite rifles now is my howa mini in 6ARC, in a Pendleton carbon stock, bottom metal and Timney trigger. With the Razor 1.5-8x scope, it’s 6.5lb, and this 20” barrel(wish it was 16”) is no lightweight, but it’s such a joy to carry. People are catching on to this, it’s desirable, I’ve had the rifle less time than my friends as they all want to try it out, then make their own afterwards.

Why Howa? They’re the only ones making it easy for us today without a gunsmith and 6month wait. The market is wide open and ready for a short Kimber.

This mf'er is beyond retarded. Don't listen to a single thing he spews.

Every single time he posts he reinforces how stupid he is. If you look up "fudd-tard" in the dictionary, it's him.

Bullets do the killing, not the cartridge brass. Certainly not the name stamped on the end of the cartridge. This new class of smaller cartridges shooting high sectional density and high bc bullets are very capable of killing. They can do it with less recoil, noise and cost. I think rifle manufacturers would be wise to look at building some rifles optimized for those rounds.

I think Kimber is well positioned to do that. Just using the 84M with an ARC bolt face and a 223 bolt face would get them there ahead of nearly every other manufacturer. However, if they could scale the action down while maintaining the ability to feed these rounds loaded to proper length, that would be huge. I think it’s clear the market is growing for a rifle like this if you follow all the trends in the industry. It all points to something like this.

I rather like the ability on 84M's,to choose my COAL for things like 223AI,6x45 and 6BR...mainly because I do. No need to alter anything,just simply reintroduce the 223 and add ARC's. Hint.

Just sayin'.................

This would be a great starting point.

Cool rifle Keechi..

I’d stand in line for a 22 or 6 ARC Montana myself.

I'd take some Stainless 82's as well,especially in a Montucky stock for a dupe/dupe. Hint..............

I truly like the Kimbers and, if I was starting out again, I would have the Montana, in 308, for a primary rifle. I think I would go with a scope in the 2.5-8 range, but I could live with a good fixed 4. I like the slim midsection and the balance. The trigger is good. I've been carrying rifles pushing nine pounds+ for more than sixty years and the lighter, slimmer, rifle sure feels good! Why 308? For the hunting I do, it works fine. I have a ton of brass and bullets, and I confine my long range shooting to inanimate targets.
Brad, I don't even notice the ringing in my ears unless someone mentions it. Thanks a lot! GD

Absolutely! What others blabber on endlessly about may or may not hold shucks. As for me, I’ve handled a few Kimbers and none of them raised any desire to own one. According to the ‘Fire and other blogs, there have been quite a few issues. I don’t see that completely going away moving the factory to Lower Alabama.

Kimber just needs to get some Montanas out into the market place. You can't find one around here.

Brokedick Joe Average,isn't very fhuqking bright,as you eloquently attest obliviously. Hint.

Last "bad" Montucky I scored,replete with schit mounting system and Reupold glass. Hint.












Just sayin'...................

It has been my impression that the average hunter isn't going to go to the effort or spend the money to get a suppressor. Maybe if they were an over the counter unregulated accessory with a cost in sync with the materials and effort necessary to manufacture them, but not in the current situation.

I have no use for a suppressor. I hunt on private land where the noise from an occasional gun shot isn't going to cause anyone to call the LEOs. If I'm hunting or shooting I wear Axil GS Extreme electronic ear buds to protect whatever is left of my hearing

I have 4 Kimber Hunters in 22 CM, 243, 6.5 CM, and 308, enough to cover the spectrum of whatever I'm likely to shoot in the lower 48.

I hear you the bar for suppressor ownership has been onerous, but if you are following recent events, the timeline is significantly shorter. I have seen approvals personally in under 48 hours. A long wait now is a week or two. I think suppressors will be getting much more common.

Also, suppressors are getting better and cheaper. I’ve had suppressors for 20 years now on AR’s. I had no interest in them on a bolt until recently. With titanium suppressor like the scythe and TBAC ultras and now the diligent defense S TI you can have hearing safe rifles without much more added weight than the barrel you remove. The diligent defense can be had for not much more than a decent scope costs. There was a time the “average hunter” used open sights.

I hear you on your current setup works, but once you try a suppressor it’s a game changer. I recently had a very experienced and knowledgeable friend out hunting. He works in the industry so I won’t use his name, but he was there for the first shots out of this rifle. He builds very nice rifles not traditionally associated with suppressor use. After his first shot with one, he was on the phone ready to order one. There was a time no one used scopes. Now a few people don’t, but most rifles use optics. I believe suppressor use will be similar.

Wasn’t there a group buy organized on here once upon a time for a fast twist 260 from Kimber? How was that accomplished? I bet we could put together some numbers for a 1:7 22 arc order.

I certainly don't recall anything like that,as COAL is too trite to eek the RPM increase...thus the 264 Kreed' from inception. Hint.

Kimber PPC'd in the past(PRE-Montucky/PRE-84M) and though rather unlikely,I'd obviously be in on Montucky ARC's. A 7" RPM 223 is THE easy button,but NONE of the Manufacturers actually fhuqking shoot. Hint.

Just sayin'...............

If you live in a very liberal state like I do, suppressors are illegal to own. Doesn’t matter how cheap or easy to obtain or wonderful they are. And if I could own one I’m not sure I would, given the expense.

I think I was mis remembering. Google tells me it was a Montana rifle co group buy, not a Kimber Montana as I was remembering.

MRC has been a fhuqking EPIC Schit Show from inception and in multiple hands. Hint.

My latest Montucky(Ascent) is mind blowing fhuqking AMAZING,in how well it shoots 147's. It doesn't even make sense,how exceptional it is. Hint.

Need to rebarrel a 243Win OEM Montucky to 7" RPM Speedmire,if I can get it's ammo whistled through and get it in the mail in the next couple days. Hint.

Just sayin'..................

Not having hearing protection,has DISTINCTLY saved my Life three times. Hint.

I've oft wondered,about the number of pards killed,how that affected their final outcome. Had (5) killed one Winter,in obviously separate incidents,none of which were paper cuts. Hint.

Case in point..."that's the schit that will kill ya".Hint.






Just sayin'..............

Maybe so, but I can't envision a scenario in which I'd do the paperwork to set up a trust to own any Class III item. Different folks, different strokes as the old Yamaha ad read.

I protect my own hearing and expect others to do the same on the range. I mostly hunt alone on private ground, 640 that I lease and 4,300 that my wife and I own, so noise is not something I need to be bother about.

I find it makes shooting more pleasant for myself than even muffs do. Not as much pressure in your face. Muzzle blast also bothers me more than physical recoil does. However, it does also lessen recoil like a muzzle brake but without the extra blast obviously.

I dont worry about the noise for other people, but it definitely does not disturb other game in the area as much as unsuppressed muzzle blast will. Keeps the deer at home and gives me a better chance of hitting another sounder of pigs in the same trip.

If I was shooting pigs on a regular basis, there aren't any (yet) in Nebraska, I'd probably go for a short barrel AR with a suppressor, since the objective is to kill as many pigs as possible or as many as you want to haul off and bury.

Not sure if I read this right, but I had a smith turn the knurling off the screw collar on the muzzle. The smith had to make his own mandrel because Kimber chose to use a non-standard threading. It's called screw the customer.

x2 but a 16" barrel and can sure isn't it for me.

AR’s work well. I just prefer the challenge of running a bolt gun hard. That’s why I focus so much on feeding/extraction/ejection.

I’ve seen it stated several times in this thread that suppressor hunting isn’t for them. I understand the opposition to further government intrusion by filling out information for the ATF to get what is essentialy a muffler. It’s crazy, I agree with you. But I think there’s actually a majority of people that simply haven’t ever done it.

You don’t know what you don’t know.

There’s the other, minimally more educated response from those that have used a can on a hunting rifle, and forgo frequent use because hanging a heavy can on the wrong end of a 24” barrel sucks. It does. It kills the balance point, speed and carriability of a rifle vs simply having your 22-24” barrel naked.

Then there’s Keechi_kid’s rifle. I’ve handled it. I’ve shot it. It’s a completely different thing from what 99% of suppressor experiences have been before. It’s worth the effort and expense, plain and simple. It’s like nothing out there that hasn’t enjoyed such a careful and targeted parts selection process. It balances like it should. It carries like it should, it shoots like a nice hunting rifle should shoot and it’s fast to bear and swing.

Another point I’d like to make is this: millions of people already own suppressors and hundreds more are new owners daily. It’s becoming very common. The point of “the average hunter doesn’t need this” was made. Well I know the average hunter, and so do you. 1 or 2 center fire rifles, a Rimfire or 2, a shotgun and maybe an AR are all they’ve got. Am I right? You know these people, they’re your coworkers and neighbors. They’re not gonna have 50 rifles. You know who will though? People who own suppressors. People that have taken the time and effort to go through the process, people that probably know and have utilized a couple gunsmiths services. Now why oh why would a gun company not cater to that guy and instead put out more of the same rifle configuration the market, and our gun safes are already saturated with? Let’s evolve, let’s make something amazing, let’s market to the guy that will probably buy more than one rifle a year. This rifle is a perfect example of what that should be, and so is catering to the newer smaller cartridges with appropriately sized actions.

If you haven’t had the pleasure of trying something similar in the field, treat yourself. It’s a real eye opener.

^^^^I know a LOT of fellow shooters who continually purchase firearms. You know what they are NOT looking for in any new hunting rifle they WILL be buying soon? Anything with a non-threaded barrel over 20”, period. As you say: you don’t know what you don’t know. If you don’t have or want suppressors, you can have all the opinions you like….but that’s all they’ll ever be: opinions. At least go try some and various firearms with suppressors, so you have an informed opinion and basis for your stance. As it usually is, the arguments against suppressors make most who actually use them roll their eyes at the instant realization that; the person making THAT point doesn’t realize how uninformed they are to begin with. I get that there are some who need to validate themselves around here and maybe they truly can’t own suppressors, so the validation means they need to bash those that do, just so they can see over the snail turds they shade in….but that’s not most who haven’t taken to suppressors. Most just think they don’t need them in their justifications….much like some folks didn’t ‘need’ cellphones or computers or whatever. They don’t ‘need’ them. They sure would want them, if they had any idea of how much better they could make the things they already do.

The cost isn't an issue for me, I just lack interest in a product that I think is way over-priced and something that I don't see any practical use for me in my situation. If I lived where hogs were a problem, I'd probably own a suppressed AR fitted with a thermal sight to kill them and a tractor with a backhoe to bury them, but I don't live in that scenario, so I don't have a use or need for those things.

Firearms manufactures have marketing people who, at least in theory, research the market to determine what potential customers want to see in their product lines and react accordingly. Sometimes they take a Field of Dreams approach, build it and they will come, but they are usually more conservative. Winchester's WSSM line of cartridges looks like a build it and they will come marketing decision that didn't work out well for anyone. Not many people bought rifles chambered for the WSSM cartridges and 20 years later the factory ammo is almost impossible to find and way overpriced when people who own rifles chambered for the WSSM cartridges do find it. If there is a large enough market demand for a short barrel suppressor ready bolt action rifle, somebody will build it to fill that void and meet that demand. The Ruger American Ranch is a short barrel suppressor ready rifle that has been on the market for several years, but I don't see many of them at the range or in stores. A lot of rifles made today come with treaded barrels, Ruger American Predators and Ranchers as well as some of the Mossberg Patriots and some of the Kimbers, etc., so there must be a sustainable market demand for suppressor ready rifles.

I am probably among a small minority of gun owners, in that I am a tinker and few of my non-collectable firearms remain in their as cataloged configuration. Most of the gun owners who I know, probably 95% or more, don't go to the effort or expense to modify their firearms to better fit them and their perceived needs. I know that the few people who I invite into my gun room look at and possibly handle my accumulation of stuff and then go home and shoot whatever they hunt with whatever they have. Like I've said many times, different folks, different strokes.

Sorry Bill

Aside, you described above my go-to rifle and all the reasons I like it!

These work well on Kimber's. Inexpensive too.

https://hughesprecision.com/product-category/thread-protectors/?filters=firearm-specific-protector%5Bkimber%5D

I get you don’t ’see any practical purpose’, and think of hogs and night hunting as a singular purpose to ‘need’ one, etc..but those very statements indicate you don’t have any first-hand understanding of what they do….aside from maybe ditching your ear muffs or worrying about noise if you have neighbors. Those things are merely side benefits that some suppressor owners never even consider…..not why they buy them to begin with. I also have suppressors that cost less than used VX-3s.

I understand how you feel. If you aren’t interested in suppressors, you just aren’t. I do believe your mind may change if you try one.

However, I disagree with you on there already being rifles like this available. Most of the suppressor ready rifles available have major shortcomings. The Rugers are cheap and feel cheap. A lot of others are built with barrels that are too heavy or too long. A rifle needs to be put together with the suppressor in mind. People like rifles with barrels that are 20”-24” long for the most part. Adding a suppressor doesn’t negate the fact anything over 24” feels really long in most situations.

Most manufacturers are treating suppressor ready rifles as if the only people who want to shoot a rifle with a suppressor are among the shooters with a less sophisticated palate. My true argument is that a market exists and is growing for a manufacturer to cater to someone who likes and appreciates a quality rifle with good handling characteristics AND a suppressor. I think Kimber has the product that is closest and easiest to bring this to market. I have handled Ruger Americans. I helped my brother put one together for his kids (kids overwhelmingly prefer suppressed rifles by the way) for Christmas this year. Even with the timney trigger, it’s never going to feel nice.

https://hansohnbrothers.com/shop/di...ber/diligent-defense-enticer-s-ti-black/

This is a can that I think most people would find works really well on a rifle with a shorter barrel. All reviews say it suppresses well. It’s a titanium constructed can so it’s relatively lightweight. It’s slightly longer and slightly heavier, by about and inch and an ounce, than the can I chose. But on the other side it’s cheaper. At right around $700, I think it’s in the ballpark of a good scope.

On a 20”+ rifle, I think it would feel unwieldy. On something closer to what I’m advocating, I think the overwhelming majority would find it makes for a comfortable to shoot and nice handling rifle.

Keechi, you own the new to market Silencerco Scythe - it's the can I plan on acquiring once it's been around for a bit. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it? How quiet do you find it, and how well does it limit recoil?

As to your 16" Kimber idea, a lot of us would rather go a touch longer (17-18") so, given that, I think the mfg's smartly understand that not everyone will want a barrel as short as 16". Really, as you know, it's not that big a deal to have a smith cut and thread a barrel.

Anyway, I like your setup a lot. Some really solid thinking there.

Not SS & stock is a little short for me, but cheaper, lighter & ready to go out of the box than a Kimber..
pg. 11:
https://www.legacysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/2024-LSI-Catalog.pdf

I don’t have any criticism of the scythe as I have it set up. I removed the brake that comes on it. So it could have a bit more recoil management than my set up. I am using the hanohn brothers flat cap. I also picked up the silencerco version of the titanium flat cap. The Hansohn version is a little lighter. I wanted as short and light as possible though.

As for sound suppression, I have no qualms about shooting it without muffs. I tend to be a bit sensitive to muzzle blast too. I had friends shoot it and hear it ears uncovered as a I shot. Off to the side, it sounds similar to hitting 1/4” plate steel with a hammer with moderate force. Behind the rifle it’s more of pneumatic type noise. Not unpleasant at all. I shot a 6 arc just this afternoon with a hybrid 46 on it. The scythe on the 6.5 creed is more comfortable despite being a smaller and lighter can.

Recoil reduction is noticeable. I started this project somewhat by accident, and the story of that will be informative for recoil reduction. My brother had picked up a Kimber hunter in 6.5 creed that had been cut to 19” but not threaded. He was planning on it being a rifle for one of his kids. When he shot it however, he decided it wouldn’t work as a kid rifle.

The reason for that was the rifle moved too much when shot. He tried to explain it to me, but basically said it didn’t kick as in hurt, it just came back too fast and moved too much. So I ended up trading him out of it. It didn’t take me long to fall in love with the handling characteristics of the rifle. The length was great for quick movement and deploying out of tight spaces. I culled a few doe and shot some hogs with it. I did not like the scope that was on it. It had came with an SWFA ultra light. The eyebox was small and it made it hard to shoot rapidly because of how much the gun would move being light. I was also hunting with a friend at that time who was using a suppressor. I didn’t like us both needing ears because my rifle wasn’t suppressed.

So I decided to use that rifle as a donor action for another project and picked up a second hunter. I had it shipped straight to smith. I decided on 16” because my calculations on Gordon’s reloading tool told me I would enough velocity for bullet performance based on my testing with a 6.5 swede with the 147’s. I looked at the 19” rifle and figured I could deal with 2-3” more on the rifle for the gains of the suppressor.

So, recoil reduction. It is significant. The rifle was never painful to shoot, but the rifle wasn’t very easy to shoot. It would move a lot in your hands. That is no longer true. It stays much more steady like a much heavier rifle.

Before you decide on a longer barrel, I would again urge someone to consider how much velocity do they actually need. Only reason for more barrel is more velocity. If 16” is fast enough for the bullet you use to perform at the ranges you actually shoot, I wouldn’t add more just because previous experience tells you a short barrel is uncomfortable. The suppressor solves all those issues other than velocity. Velocity is a factor where enough is enough.

Before I respond, are we talking about the Howa?

Yep.

The Howa is a fun rifle, but it’s not as good of a start as the Kimber. This is a 20” barreled action mini 1500 in 6 arc. The action was placed in a Pendleton carbon fiber stock with the Pendleton bottom metal. Scope is a Vortex 2-8


Rifle with Hybrid 46

Rifle without Hybrid 46


As you can see here, the rifle itself is heavier than the Kimber with supressor. Kimber also has a bigger scope. I will say this. The Howa is a friends rifle. It shoots really well. When he first brought it to me to test, I told him I didn’t like his idea (the idea I’m advocating for now) and wasn’t going to like the rifle. However, I absolutely fell in love with the concept (obviously). The Howa shoots very accurately. That Pendleton stock feels very nice. Trigger isn’t very good though. I feel like I’m fighting with it every time I shoot it. The safety feels cheap and breakable. Nowhere near as nice as the potential for the safety on the Kimber. The Kimber could use some cleanup on its detents as well. The bolt handle is too short on the howa without as easy an option for lengthening it. That hurts the feeding. The action feels coarser and feeding is rougher.

Also, do not discount the lack of stainless being an option. I would have bought one of the howas when Brownells got that run of stainless, but I had already latched on to the Kimber as the next step in this rifles concept. Also, I didn’t care for the 7.62x39 ( I don’t like the .310 bullet options. Case capacity is good though) or the 6.5 Grendel for this rifle concept. I have to take steps to take care of this howa I don’t have to take with the Kimber. I don’t abuse my rifles, but they get used. Before a typical hunt for me even starts, a rifle is probably going to be covered in talcum powder consistency dust. Having a rifle that has to be oiled to not rust compounds this. The threads yesterday when I mounted the suppressor had rust. I had to brush them and oil them. A non-stainless bore is much harder to care for in Texas dirt and humidity. Especially if you factor in taking a rifle out of air conditioning into humid air.

Also, cost. The barreled actions are $400–$550 for the stainless. I bought my Kimber from buds for $775. By the time you buy stocks and a bottom metal that isn’t trash for the howa, you have paid enough to buy the Kimber and cut and thread your barrel. The howa can be nice too, but legacy has so far failed to acknowledge they need to bring in a stainless barreled action and offer it with a better magazine system. There’s a thread here on this forum discussing the stainless howas and their deficiencies.

I like the howa. I like the potential they represent and the fact they are close to the concept I’m advocating for. However, I have had both in hand today even, and will tell you the Kimber is better for me. Your uses may be different than mine.

Open the link to the LSI catalog I provided and go to page 11..
The rifle shown is a Howa Super Lite w/ 16.25" threaded barrel and weighs 4lbs 3ozs..
It is not a "Mini" nor is it a standard sized 1500.
Chambered for .243, 6.5 Creed, .708, & .308
BTW I agree with you on wanting SS as I live in the Central Interior of B.C. and condensation is a bitch in the fall/winter.
The last Kimber I bought was probably around 2008 (.223 M84) new in the box was around $1425.00 w/tax & shipping.
The 6.5 G Mini Carbon Stocker I bought last spring cost $1600.00.
I haven't seen a new Kimber up here for sale on line since covid.
I install rubber ball slip-on bolt knobs from our Tikka importer for $8.00 cdn$..
Cheap & work great!
The Amazon knobs suck in comparison.

5 killed one winter. Thanks. I'll bet they were all taller than you and forgot to duck

I have fired rifles with suppressors and I just don't see that they add anything of value that is worth owning for me. What other people, particularly other people's children, choose to buy or do is of little interest to me. My kids have all been shooting multiple firearms without suppressors since they were preteens and seem to have come through the experience without any noticeable damage to their hearing or their self-worth.

Manufactures generally try to build products that they can sell for a profit and in a volume that is in sync with their production capacity. If you believe that Kimber would be able to sell a lot of units and make a profit selling rifles with the same or similar specs to the one that you've put together for yourself, you should share your thoughts and blueprint with them.

Among my accumulation of rifles are 14 Ruger Americans. Does my ownership of the Rugers indicate that I have an unsophisticated palate?

How many more ways are you going to tell us that you don't care for the OP suppressed rifle?

I’m glad to hear that no one has had severe hearing damage. You’ve already indicated though that your hunting opportunities are limited. It is a certainty that every shot fired without hearing protection results in damage, and that damage is cumulative.

As for sharing it with Kimber, I certainly hope there is some opportunity for these thoughts to reach them.

There is no judgment on my part against someone for liking Ruger Americans. I find them lacking in certain areas regarding their feel and function, but they are certainly an accurate firearm that I would expect to function. Also, owning them alone doesn’t indicate you’re unsophisticated in what you like. You may have 14 more rifles built by Echols, Simmillion and Penrod for all I know. A man can enjoy a nice prime ribeye and a McDonald’s hamburger.

Basically yes. A rifle configured like that Howa from Kimber. With a preference for them trying to chamber it in 6mm arc or 22 arc. Edited this because I went back and looked again because I was intrigued. Yeah. The 16” 6.5 and 7-08 would be nice to play with. The 243 is too slow a twist.

My issue with the bolt handles isn’t the size of the bolt knob as much as the length. I can see where the larger know would help, but I want the longer handle for more leverage in manipulating the bolt as well as being easier to grab. The Howa and Kimber both are deficient. The Kimber is easy to unscrew and replace though.

Never had a problem working Kimber OR Howa bolts. But I palm them, don't 'grab' them...

All a matter of reference I guess. I didn’t think much about bolt handles until I had felt some on nicer custom rifles. The first two that really made me conscious of it were a Simillion 270 built on a Winchester classic action and a Richardson and Roberts action which is a copy of the pre-64 with square bridges and the bolt handle set out a little more and longer than is typical. That bolt being out farther and longer gives you a lot more leverage to push through an action that’s sticky from whatever life has thrown at it. Especially true when you’re palming it. I especially like it when the handle has some checkering on it. Makes the engagement much more positive.

If you really believe in your Kimber project you should pursue it. You'll never know unless/until you follow through and reach out to Kimber. Who knows, it could be your legacy, your once in a lifetime opportunity knocks moment. Good luck if you decide to move forward with your Kimber project, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

That’s kinda the point of this thread, isn’t it? Hell I’d love to be part of a group buy. Who else?

$75 gets you the shorter barrel length you want. It’s a pretty easy process.

All I’d need them to do is offer the Montana with full bottom metal!

People collect Legos, baseball cards, stamps, miniature cars - some collect fungus and spores. Each individual has their own jam and it should only matter to the individual.

NO! Leave Kimber alone. Buy yourself one of the NewUltralightWilsonfuckedemup rifles if you want to add weight and a failure-point where it doesn't belong.

Agreed

I would be interested in a “proper rifle” designed for a suppressor. I don’t own a suppressor, yet, but it’s only because I perceived the paperwork hassle as more onerous than it probably is… but, my first ever new rifle is going to have a suppressor when I get it (starting with a .22 LR for plinking). After that, I'll be looking for a handy, scout-type rifle with a suppressor.

I like traditional, old-fashioned walnut stock and deeply-blued steel bolt action rifles. I think the OP is on to something suggesting that there is a market for higher end rifles that are built and designed to be suppressed. Not everyone wants a purely functional rifle. Not everyone’s ideal of beauty is the same. I carried tactical rifles throughout my military career. They have a definite use and appeal. But I don’t want to hunt with one.

If I could get a new bolt action, that looked, felt, handled, and shot like a 1950’s FN, BRNO, Winchester, etc., chambered for a readily available modern cartridge, for under $1000 (then add cost of scope, suppressor, ammunition, dies, etc.), I would be interested in it. But expecting a rifle manufacturer to offer an affordable rifle with a nice walnut (or even maple) stock seems a tall order these days. And just ordering the plastic stocked one and getting a new stock takes it right out of the price I am willing to pay for a new rifle. I priced out a Boyd’s stock to replace the plastic one on Tikka T1x I was considering purchasing and it would have been almost as expensive as the rest of the rifle.

Maybe my tastes are considered expensive, but the factory offerings from 70 years ago, even from the cheaper brands, look and feel better designed than all the new options I checked out at my LGS this weekend. Is it really impossible to make an affordable J.C. Higgins M50 or M51 equivalent today? But designed to take advantage of modern cartridges and ballistics?

I’ve got a custom .270 Winchester built on a K98 action sometime in the early 1970s. It’s very accurate and reliable, but probably my least favorite rifle (accuracy and reliability are basic characteristics of any acceptable rifle. There’s nothing wrong with it, it’s just the least favorite in my gun safe.). Because it has basically no collector’s value, that might be a good candidate to use as the basis to build the rifle I describe above.

CZ 600 Lux would be awful close to what you're looking for. Classic lines, blued (matte, not deep/shiny), walnut stock, walnut bolt-knob for a little panache, Bbl-length short enough to add a suppressor without it becoming a pole-vault and threaded for same from the get-go.

The street-price is just at or a little under your $1K ceiling.

In my police career I’ve used suppressors a lot on AR’s I’ve also hunted and shot a pard’s suppressed 220 Swift. I don’t see any benefit for my needs. That said I don’t have any problem with them and they should be unregulated.

First, I will say that I know Kimber only by reputation. I like their 1911s, but I never have checked out their rifles before. But one thing jumped off the page at me after reading this thread and looking at the Kimber website. The website is bad. This is not unique to Kimber, all the new gun manufacturer's websites which I have viewed recently are pretty terrible.

https://www.kimberamerica.com/montana

I cannot even look at a 360 degree view of the rifle on the Kimber website (or, if I can, the interface does not make that readily clear). The options are akin to the Model T's "you can have it in any color you want, as long as it's black." The options are not comparable side-by-side. Are they actually trying to sell rifles?

Compare them with any PC manufacturer's website and look at how much customization you can have when you order a new PC. Compare it with most automobile manufacturer's websites. I can go on the Ford website and select a ton of options if I wanted a new truck, then have it delivered right to my local dealer. Why can't I do the same with a rifle? It cannot be that much harder to stick on an 18-inch threaded barrel and a walnut stock on a rifle than it is include a 26" monitor and the latest graphics card or to throw in full leather seats.

It should not be that hard to make a basic model to sell to stores (the same as PC manufacturers make basic models to sell in stores or the truck on the lot down at the local dealership), but have the option to build and design your custom rifle on the website. And to see the changes in price, weight, length, balance point, etc. as you do that. If you want to add full bottom metal to a Montana, that should be an option. If you want it all stainless, that should be an option. If you want it with a shorter barrel and threaded, that should be an option. Is there some reason you cannot do this with a rifle?

Why does this matter? Because otherwise there is no way I am dropping the kind of money they want on a new rifle. This weekend, I went to a few gun stores around a major Virginia town to try to look at a CZ 457 and a Tikka T1x. Not exactly uncommon rifles these days. Nor are they expensive. Yet none of the stores - even the ones that are dealers for those brands - had more than one rifle of each kind in stock. They cannot afford to carry any real inventory. So, if I cannot handle the rifle myself before I purchase it, then why on earth wouldn't I at least be able to customize it from the website?

And I really don't understand the mentality that "Kimber shouldn't do this." If they are already offering a lightweight mountain rifle with a 26" threaded barrel in .308, why couldn't they offer the customer the option of an 18.5" threaded barrel in .308?

Yes, I know. I don't want to derail the thread, so I will start a new one if I want to discuss that particular topic further.

Cooper's Custom Shop will be your huckleberry when/if they ever get back up and running. But, it'll be about 3x over your $1K budget.

IIRC Palmetto State is working on a customizable modular bolt-action but I doubt Wood/Blued will be an option.

Sauer 404 is very customizable but about 5x over your $1K ceiling. Same for Blaser.

It's not like the Kimber rifles which are the topic of this thread are exactly cheap. For that price point on a basic rifle, I would want to be able to adjust at least some of the most basic features and get what I am willing to pay for.

The OP has some very solid ideas about what he wants in a perfect hunting rifle. A number of other people have quibbled with his choices. Everyone's idea of the "perfect rifle" is different. With the variety of options out there in the aftermarket and the way rifles are made these days, it's absurd that customizable factory rifles are not a normal option. It's as if rifles are still being made on an older business model, unlike cars, computers, houses, etc. Unless I am buying a used item, I should expect to have some choice these days. Even if I want a basic Ford F150, I can pick the color out of a dizzying array of colors.

Again, the issue is not what I want per se. The fact that the OP has different ideas than I do is the point. If Kimber wants to sell more rifles, then offering more options (within some basic limitations), seems to be a reasonable business decision. Not just more set configurations, but a true, "start with this action, select your caliber, cartridge, stock, etc." And the rifle should not cost more with a 20" threaded barrel vs 18" vs 26". Unless, of course, some of those lengths are truly niche and therefore an extra cost is justified by needing to offer it. But it makes sense that if I want to get the rifle with a walnut stock, I should pay a premium. Telling a customer, "if you want a rifle with a walnut stock, go find another brand," seems a bit silly with the way rifles are made today.

It's a crowded marketplace. I used to assume that companies were intelligent. That their marketing departments were data driven. That they were making rational decisions with what they offered. But I don't think that is always the case. There are too many half-baked ideas that get released and flop for that to be the case. When selling $2000 rifles, it makes a lot more sense to sell each consumer the rifle they want - within reason - than to count on an everyman consumer walking into the LGS and choosing your rifle versus any other brand and going away satisfied (and therefore becoming a potential repeat customer). If a company could see through its sales department that people are being offered a range of cartridge choices, but everyone and their dog is ordering the 6.5 CM, that should tell them something.

A while back, I was considering purchasing a new-built house. I was leafing through the catalogue and playing on the builder's website to see my options. One option was a fireplace. I tried to select it and it said, "no longer available." I called the builder to ask why. His answer was "less than 10% of buyers chose that option, so it wasn't worth it to us to keep that option available." I told him that while I might be in the minority, a fireplace was really important to me and I was willing to pay for it. He still wasn't interested in adding it. That annoyed me, but his position was supported by actual data. It helped cost him a sale (and I am glad, in hindsight, that it did, since I am very happy where I now live). To him, keeping the materials and workforce on hand to offer a fireplace that 90% of people didn't want just didn't make business sense with the way houses are built today. But rifles are not built like houses. And offering a wider range of options, rather than trying to force feed the customer, gives the company real consumer preference data.

One of the problems for manufacturers would be that people aren't always rational in what they want when it comes to rifles. People get wedded to an idea because it has worked in the past and don't take the time or don't have the opportunity to try something different. Rifles are expensive. It can be tough to get a different version of something just to see if it works. Not everyone has the opportunity to put a rifle in a situation that challenges their current status quo. I spend as much time as I can out doing my version of hunting. I spend the rest of it thinking about what I want to do and what rifle and bullet I want to try the next time I go. I am blessed to live on a ranch large enough I can practice my unique style of hunting. What I do is closer to an African plains game safari than what is normally though of with Texas style box blind hunting. I push my rifles harder because of that.

All that to say, its easy to hold to an idea if its never challenged. People want what they want until they learn differently. I did not want a rifle like I posted up here until the paradigms I believed were challenged. A year ago I would have told you my Winchester classic stainless featherweight in 30-06 with 22" barrel pushing a 208 grain ELD-M was the ultimate. Its in a Mcmillan featherweight stock and it is comfortable to tote. It kills like a lightning bolt. However, it kicks like mule being that light and pushing heavy bullets that hard. I have to carry ear muffs with me. The recoil jars you off target and it takes longer to get back on. The rifle has a lot of positive qualities. I still love the rifle and carry it some.

However, playing with the Howa pictured earlier in the thread, experimenting with a 6.5 swede I have, and stumbling up on the other Kimber Hunter in 6.5 creed I had challenged things that I previously held to be true. Prior suppressors I had told me a suppressor was either ineffective as a muffler or too long and heavy to place on a bolt rifle without messing up its handling characteristics. New suppressors have come out that gave options for light, short AND effective. All these things changed the factors in my calculations. Thus, a new project that I am happy with and is encouraging me to continue down this path.

Basically, new information has told me I can have an even smaller, lighter rifle, that shoots less heavy recoiling rounds that still kill quickly and effectively, just more efficiently while also wearing a suppressor that lets me leave the muffs in the truck and not get a sweaty head and a headache. I believe everyone's perfect rifle depends on the hunting they are doing. However, I would invite everyone to take the opportunity to try a rifle configured similar to what I have done here. I doubt at the ranges most hunters shoot, they will find this configuration lacking in killing power. At least, until you get beyond 500-600 yards, your rifle will not fail to kill because of a lack of velocity if you are choosing the right bullets and matching them to the quarry.

Enough animals have died to .243s and .30-30s that anyone suggesting the OP's rifle lacks killing power at normal hunting ranges needs to have his head examined. The limitation holding back most modern weapons is what is behind the rifle, not in it or on it. My unit captured an Afghan sniper who was reliably pinging .303 rounds into my Marines' chest and back plates at 800 yards with an Enfield rifle that looked like it had been dragged from England to Afghanistan and stored under a rock pile for almost a century, using ammo that I probably would have thrown away if someone gave it to me. We captured him when he crawled right into the hide my snipers were using for overwatch. Tell that dude that he needs a high BCE bullet going 3000 FPS and he would laugh at you, at least until he cut your balls off and fed them to you.

Growing up as a kid, I was frequently exposed to reloading conversations that could all be summed up as "faster is always better." If your bullet wasn't going "Mach 3 with its hair on fire," it wasn't going fast enough. And rifle companies and component manufacturers catered to that. People around the literal campfire would argue that the .30-06 was obsolete because it wasn't a X magnum.

The current discussions of BCE have taken on much of the flavor of the old "faster is always better" debates. Even back then, people knew that bullets with a high BCE were better at long distances. I remember when I first got my .25-06 being super impressed with the .435 BCE of my favored 120-grain bullets. It was the best affordable option I had available 25 years ago. A simple Sierra spitzer boat tail accounted for many, many deer, even if I never really stretched the rifle's capabilities. But if I chased the new hotness, I would be trying out 135-grain bullets to get marginally more performance that I will almost certainly never need. Because apparently anything less than .6 BCE is utter trash.

Back then, my father taught me that it usually wasn't worth it to try to get the extra 50 FPS and certainly not at the expense of accuracy. That our goal was to tune the round to match the rifle's harmonics. All things being equal, at our hunting ranges, the bullet going 2700 or 2800 FPS made zero difference. That the most important thing was to minimize as many controllable factors as possible from the equation, but never to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

The only people who really benefit from the "must have maximum in all categories" mindset are the people who sell rifles and components.

I remember watching an interview with a seal about them. He said if he didn’t require it for flash suppression he wouldn’t use one.

How about a Snickers candy bar? Damn.

Despite the BEST efforts of Blue Haired Cat Ladies telling Bedtime Stories,bullet always have and always will matter more than headstamps. Read that again. Now one more time. Hint.

I rather like .620 BC's at 2820fps in my 21" Dasher,with 3fps SD and 32grs of powder. Perhaps that's due to all the Bob's,Better Bob's,25-284's,25-06's,25-06 AI's and 257 Wby's I've had/have? Hint.

Just sayin'...............

I’ll tell you, in a gas driven AR they really foul the action. You spend a lot more time cleaning than usual.

You can. You hire a gunsmith. Other option, you order a rifle from a manufacturer that specializes in customization. Just be prepared to pay 3x-5x+ what your $1K ceiling is.

The 18” Fieldcrafts are perfect for me

My idea of perfect. Handles like a rapier!

WBY MK V Backcountry Titanium 2.0
6.5 RPM
Maven RS2 2x10x38



Always under .75" at 100. 127 LRX at 3150 plus FPS. Will do for just about everything

I feel you. I hate schitcans. Never gonna happen for me.

The "perfect" hunting rifle........

What's the old bromide.........

Opinions are like noses, everyone has one, many of them smell.

Not perfect, but mine.



Kimber Hunter, 280 AI, crowned/threaded @17", Dead Air Nomad 30 can

I own/have owned a bunch of different brands/calibers/styles.



Bolt actions......




Merkel B4 Bergstutzen, 223 Rem./30-06



Lyman Sharps, 45-70



Savage BA Stealth , 308 Win

AR-15, 223 Rem.



Browning M71, 348 Win.
Browning B-78, 300 H&H
Browning 63, 218 Bee




Browning BAR, 7mag.



H Burgsmuller & Sohn S x S double, 405 Winchester

Not one of them is/was perfect for any/every application.

JMHO.

GWB

Very nice collection of rifles there. I like the Hunter in 280ai. I had a Montana in 280ai once upon a time. I wish I had kept it, but at the time I was somewhat frustrated with the lack of quick expansion on lighter pigs from 160 grain partitions (I know, too heavily constructed of a bullet. Would use 180 ELD-M's now) and chasing what I perceived as expensive brass. You should take a look at some of the lighter titanium cans out now. My buddy has the nomad and I have shot with it. The Scythe is much lighter and performs better to my ear. Despite my request to Kimber being to make rifles geared to smaller cartridges, the 280ai would be nice for them to offer in the Hunter again. I really don't like being limited to choosing between the 6.5 and 308.

If it's a kimber. Their QC needs to be more consistent

That may be true. I’ve read that for years and never had an issue with their handguns or long guns.

Either way, they have the market cornered currently on new production lightweight (under 6 lbs) , stainless, hunting rifles in the $1500 +/- ballpark. You can get a used one for $1200.

Just picked this one up yesterday and got it sighted in this afternoon. About to take it out and see what I can kill. Going to use the Barnes 110 TAC-TX. Adirondack 300 blackout with a Kahles 2-7 and circle plex reticle.

Not going to say there aren’t QC issues possible, but I wonder how often they get a bad reputation on the internet simply because rifles that light are hard to shoot well.

You’re not. Buy a used Kimber and rebarrel to whatever you want.
FWIW, I had a couple Kimbers put together similar to yours, about 8-10 years ago. Very effective prescription for a suppressed hunting rifle.

It is definitely a nice recipe. Even nicer with the suppressor options available now.

However, a rebarrel can’t get you everywhere I’d like to go. A .473 bolt face will not allow for an ARC build. It would also be nice to not have to send it to a gunsmith but just buy it as I think its effectiveness justifies it being a factory option. I could also have Stuart Satterlee machine me a custom mini-Mauser out of titanium to have exactly what I want, same as he is doing for me now with a 300 H&H, but that is also significantly more money and years of waiting.

The 6mm creedmoor I want could be done with a rebarrel though. The action I have at a gunsmith could end up as that. I’m still undecided.

No pigs this evening, but the blackout was blooded.

My 6BR Montucky is one of my favorite rifles of ALL time. Hint…………..

Is the feeding hard to get worked out for the BR cartridges on the Kimbers? I was concerned that would be difficult. I was considering a 30 BR before I found the 300 blackout. Also was thinking a 6mm GT with the 109 grain ELD-M’s could be an option for that other action.

The Gay Tiger will be fine,in issued guise. Hint.

For a Montucky BR I prefer a Reverse Bryant. Shim the fore of the mag and keep caseheads riding high in relation to boltface,in the stern. Hint.

I like aluminum and shape it as a pre-feedramp funnel. Hint.

Tough to post pictures from the tarmac. Hint……….

Help for the slow kid please;
This interests me. Are you shimming the front of the box so that the CRF Extractor can catch the rim better while further back (that momentary pause between bolt going back then forward)? ...compared to Mike's pushfeed Rem box modification that needs to hold onto the BR case as long as possible as it's fed?

For me... the Kimber roulette is a real thing.
Bought my boy the Hunter in 6.5
Had to send it back in and have the chamber repolished as it would scratch/ gouge the brass. It's also a Very tight chamber to where I Had to get small base dies. My tikkas shoot better and are less finicky.
To each his own.

I’m a Winchester CRF guy, but the thing I like about these Kimbers is that you can actually have CRF in a tremendously lighter rifle. Just look at the bolts back to back, it’s shocking how much smaller and lighter they are, a lot less material. Yes, the Winchester classic or pre64 is a smoother action, but maybe there’s some hope for that in the future. That said my next rifle will most likely be one of these Kimbers, QC be danmed, there’s always gunsmiths happy to help. Still trying to decide if I wanna copy OP’s rifle or play with another cartridge. Either way it’ll be closer to what I wanna see.

6creedmore is very interesting, and has a lot of great attributes especially with kids (16” 6creed will probably best the velocity of my 6arc 20”), but I keep having intrusive thoughts about a 358 16” and a YHM R9 suppressor. I need to sit and think on this for a few months maybe.

That's absolutely not my experience.

Just shot my Kimber in .257 Roberts. Its accuracy has greatly been improved once I found a problem with the stock touching the barrel and fixed it. Went from 3" gun to under an inch for most loads tested. As far as smoothness of the action goes it is very smooth, but I don't think it is better than my pre64s. They are like butter. I would have to have both out at the same time to confirm that.

The Winchesters benefit from the anti-bind features on the bolt. Takes some of the potential play out of working the bolt. I am interested to see if there is a way to modify a Kimber to add that feature.

Good to see the BO is settling into its new home. Waiting for pig pics. My boy wants to see one killed with it.

Bb

We’ve had more than 10 inches of rain over the last few days that’s slowing me down, but I will try to get some on the ground soon. Will post them up here when accomplished.

+1

Love my p-64's and love my Kimbers, like picking between my daughters, but wow that statement made me jump in my seat

I have the opposite experience to Brad. Thought it’s with probably smaller numbers for Kimber (a couple of Montanas) and atypical Winchester’s (match rifles with hundreds of thousands of cycles).

Not all Winchester’s have the Anti Bind feature. I believe they started in the later production post rifles.
The pre-64’s didn’t have it (didn’t need it with the claw extractor running the length of the bolt).

These are on a pre-64. They engage the rear bridge opposite the bolt handle to keep the bolt in line as you apply force to the handle driving it home. This is what I’m referring to. I have been discussing adding something like this to a Kimber.

Hey look a 3k dollar piece of shìt lol

Ps crf is dumb and pointless

We are speaking of different anti-bind features.
The one I’m referring to is the longitudinal slot cut into the lug (right side iirc) that rode on a corresponding rib alongside the raceway. I’ll try to get a pic up.

I also find the Kimbers as smooth as Win. M 70s. I also don't need to carry a 9# rifle anymore.

Kimber montana SS in 280AI, Leupold Varix III 2.5-8 in silver.

Just compared my Kimber to my pre 64. The Kimber is smoother until you lock the bolt down than it is harder. The pre64 won't slide back and forth like the Kimber (depending on the angle of the barrel), but it goes into battery easier.

Which is often said about CCW, 4wd, etc


Maybe…..until it isn’t.

This isn't 1940. Crf is pointless.

Interesting point. I forgot how the calendar affects reliable feeding, extraction and ejection. However, this thread isn’t really a discussion debating the merits of CRF alone. This thread is a discussion of a rifle concept. Primarily a rifle designed to be lightweight and compact while incorporating a suppressor and maintaining reliability under harsh use.

Your first post was to denigrate a rifle that seems to be exhibit some positive qualities without really expressing any specific criticisms. Perhaps you can expound further on why that rifle isn’t worthy of further consideration.

Oh boy.

The lowered, noisy Honda civic crowd just found the thread.

LOL….CRF is definitely not pointless, but your first sentence is.

Because Weatherby, and especially that model, sucks.

You want a lightweight rifle that works? Buy a tikka, cut/thread, and go shoot. Or fiddle-fùck with garbage (kimber)...your choice.

My big game rifles in order.

1. CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery. Action as solid as a bank vault, smooth too. Shoots sub MOA even with me shooting. Has Wayne's (AHR) CZ #1 upgrade (single stage match trigger, 3 pos M70 type safety, straighten and fill bolt) Nothing to improve on.



2. 1968 BDL in 270 Win (bottom in picture) My only rifle for almost 30 years. Have taken many elk, 9 bears dozens of deer etc. Still shoots nickel sized groups with 150g Partitions at 3000 fps

3. Top in picture. Rem XCR II in 375 Weatherby Mag, weighs 7 1/2 lbs with scope. Mods include Sako extractor, heavier firing pin and spring, bolt welded on. Shoots 375 H&H factory or 375 Weatherby. TriNyte coated.

Evidently.... Nothing wrong with that combo. Light and accurate. Killed truckloads of game with my Bees and everyone of them is sub moa.

Lol of course they are...

Of course.....

If Kimber would just make a Hunter in 223 (1/7, 2.5" OAL of course) and/or 6 ARC, that would just about make the perfect rifle.

That answer seems to satisfy nearly everyone is this thread. Or if they don’t wanna do another bolt size, maybe 6 GT or 6 creed.

Changes from the original post. I swapped the bolt handle to a titanium handle. I removed the gel from the stock and sprayed a foam in it.

Just for entertainment, what does that mean to you?

This

460 Bee


338 RPM Bee


270 Bee


30-378 Bee


257 Bee

6.5x300 Bee



240 Bee



300 Bee



338-378 Bee



378 Bee





well you get the idea (I hope) ....... This is what MOA means to me. Some sub Half MOA.

Lol lol lol impressive

3 shots. Statistically irrelevant. Good job on hitting the orange dot a couple of times lol lol.

Fudd clown shìt right there....

Correct, just like you and your opinions. You have nothing of substance.

Now do us a favor and go test yourself for extra chromosomes. Thank you.

Do yourself a favor and actually zero your p.o.s. Weatherbys. Should be easy since "they're all sub moa" lol lol lol

Another unsolicited premature spew by Jackin Handlob…

The ignore button is there for a reason.

Boo-fùckung-hoo lol lol

My advice still stands, fotard should actually zero his weatherturds

^^^^

Sure: it occasionally becomes apparent that some insist on only offering vitriol, or insisting their vitriol outweigh any value they bring to a topic. However, there’s a particular group that are just idiots with enough $/time to support their habits. They usually aren’t a problem, until they decide to take up forums and put their idiocy on blast.

well, if you're gonna take on the x39 case then better make sure the 6.5 Grendel and new 22 Arc get the chambering also

totally agree and have said it long ago, the Grendel in a Kimber mountain rig would be dang nears perfect, as it is literally a 3/4 scale 308 in every way, 3/4 scale cartridge/bullet (123gr 6.5 vs the 168gr .308) and those featherweight stainless Montana's etc. would shoot well and keep recoil ft/lbs in the very shootable ranges, likely similar to a .243 to creed in a tikka recoil range

as it is...the universal cartridge 308 in the new sako peak 90 is 5 lb 10 oz and has a 20" threaded fluted barrel, no plastic, stainless or aluminum, wr fastest lock time, unreal trigger, flush detach mag (no plastic) that you can top feed like any decent crf, and unbelievable stock....it is the closest thing to perfect that you can get currently....oh can't forget to add that it has integral picatinny bases that let you actually get lower than useful for absolute proper cheek alignment, it's got a higher comb than tikka's, it's the first gun that with x-low options I actually had to come up to just low ring options to get the perfect match on alignment....

here's the kicker though....sako has an XS length action, in the 85....you could get the .223.....now imagine this sako 90 peak in XS length action with those unreal detach mags and everything else I just said....If I could have that in 6.5 Grendel my .308 would maybe go for sale....but we wait forever for the market to meet the brain don't we, how long did it take for the Finnish wizards to chamber 6.5 creedmoors lol....anyway, the Sako 90 peak in the x39 case cartridges with XS length action would out perfect anything Kimber could do, they would out shoot it, out fit and finish it, out feature it, a completely different class of quality...crf vs push....but when you consider that the only thing that cycles slicker than a sako is a tikka and after that it's semi-auto....the crf argument goes away really fast, so it's all sako 90 peak all day if this conversation is about the perfect stainless mountain type set up....nothing competes with it

I gave up waiting so just bought the universal cartridge as it's pretty perfect also in .308. Off the shelf availability globally or North America, the sheer volume of factory ammo options (I think 75 different options on cabelas usa website last I checked) which I think only the .223 came close to with about 62, 30-06 maybe had 42 options and it was downhill from there for everything else). It's as close as you can get if not there for perfect. Including .308 if you're actually looking for the perfect cartridge and you include being able to feed it from a shelf from anywhere anytime or find it during an apocalypse.

update, things are different on cabelas usa but still same story, the 308 is the number 1 by types available still, at 69 types of ammunition today, the 30-06 has come up 2nd at 57, the 300 win mag, 7 rem mag, .270 win are in the next tier down...6.5 Creedmoor is in that 2nd tier with 43 now...the .223 has tanked to only about 36 choices...I've seen that much higher....anyway, 308 is king and the universal cartridge and has been for ages and will be for ages, don't want to shoot the 30-06 in 5 lb guns lol

cabelas ammo choices, scroll the left column, see all calibers

Well now you got me drooling for the micro Sako...

That dream ended quickly once I saw the price. I bet they're sweet though!

lol, sako's slogan is 'demand perfection' and it's on the box....which I have, it took me a long time, and the 90 model to finally get in the game, and it really is the closest thing to perfection you can get your hands on....but I had a lot of fun spending gobs of money chasing this and learning all this...so that's worth something lol, you can do it right once though...and sako 90 peak is it

but you're not going to see the XS length version on the x39 cases anytime soon....the Finnish may be perfect but the price is more than just dollars....it's time....and lots of it lol, the x39 based cartridges of the 21st century are definitely worthy of this perfection as they are the most efficient use of 30 grains of powder on the planet and it's a great powder class to cross all disciplines.....so hopefully people are catching on in the higher end firearms markets, build it....and we will come, 6.5-Grendel (the original gangster of 21st century 30gr powder burners), 6-Arc, 22-Arc....er....is it 6-Grendel and 22-Grendel? lol...same thing...they are all grendel's imo....anyway, it's a brilliant case and way to burn 30gr powder, I had to setup into the low 40gr powder class to get the perfect rifle...but I would have gone the 30gr class with the 6.5g if I could have, I'll be long gone by the time they get this right though

so keep dreaming

Call me crazy, but I’m not buying into paying over 2x what a used Kimber would run you these days, and getting even 25% more rifle for the $. Maybe 25% more weight?

One of the things you are missing in these discussion is the bullet choice. I don’t really need a lot of bullet choices because I believe a heavy for caliber bullet like an ELD-M or a Sierra TMK or some of the Berger choices is the ideal. The 308 won’t do that particularly well. So in these lighter rifles, there’s a reason we are spending so much time looking at cartridges like the 6 and 22 arc. Because they can shoot really long bullets out of these short actions at adequate velocities. Even the Grendel doesn’t really allow you to shoot a 140 or 147 gr ELD-m at sufficient velocity. It’s an interesting cartridge for sure, but not the ideal for the concept most are seeking here.

What ARE ‘most’ seeking here?

A light, short rifle that handles well while wearing a suppressor and maintaining the ability to launch a bullet that is capable of taking game out to a sufficient distance. The distance needed would likely be the biggest variable affecting choice. I believe a 22 arc or 6 arc comes closest to matching that, with some needing slightly more push on a bullet necessitating slightly larger case capacity.

By “most” I mean the people who are discussing the concept being sought, not just stating their thoughts on the perfect rifle for them.

Really?

So what makes a 6.5CM, 7-08, 308, etc weighing as little or less, as short or shorter, suppressed, less desirable to everyone in this conversation than a similar gun in smaller bores?

I have and have had many different, small case, mini action rifles. There is zero reason I’d dump an Adirondack in CM with a suppressor for the same gun in a smaller chambering such as 6ARC or other. Would it be neat? Sure. Would it play in the same league as the CM/708/308 for medium game use? Nope.

Point is: I think you’re making some leaps and assumptions, while applying some limitations on the discussion that are imagined. While mini concepts and high BC small case stuff is the ‘cool’ topic, it’s not the core of anything yet.

I'm one of those people, but this is a reasonable point. There is something great about the porridge being not too hot, not too cold, but just right though. A 6 ARC would be perfect for all hunting I'm ever likely to do (up to elk, <600 yds), and better than the Creed because of less powder/blast and recoil, but that doesn't mean the Creed wouldn't work just fine and I'd probably never notice the difference.

What makes those larger bores less desirable is in order to obtain the same sectional density in a bullet it has to be heavier. A heavier bullet requires more powder to drive to the same velocity. It is especially more difficult in the shorter barrel lengths. My calculation with reloading tool for the 7-08 with a 16” barrel for example show a 180 gr ELD-m can only be pushed to the mid 2300’s. A 162 to the mid 2400’s.

The assumption you are making is that these larger bores will necessarily perform better on medium game. So far, my experimentation with the smaller bore match bullets isn’t showing a drop off in performance. If I can get the same performance with a smaller cartridge and rifle with less recoil and easier to carry, I don’t feel the need to use a larger one.

So just buy or assemble a 6 creed, 6gt, or 6arc, and move on with your life (and ditch the p.o s. Kimber while you're at it.

Though I can "only" speak in the first hand to multiple 100's of rifles,my Montucky 6 BR is easily one of my Favorites of ALL time. Hint.

Pardon reality. Hint.



Just sayin'...............

Oh boy, out comes the SD voodoo.

I’m not making any assumptions.

95% of hunters never shoot an animal past 300 yards.

BC is generally irrelevant inside 300-400 yards, for the stuff we’re talking here.

You’re doing a lot of work to try to say the mini can be ‘as good’, while ignoring that it can’t ever be better than the common, proven, comfortable case capacity cartridges already available and covering the market.

Experience on game and various bullets indicates bore and velocity often trump SD/BC on medium game at normal hunting ranges, for time to expiration, blood loss/trail, bang flop, etc. We can use the same types of bullets across configurations and see differences in performance based size, weight, and impact velocity for the same exact type/make of bullet. Suppressors tend to do more for recoil and blast reduction, the more you push through them.

I own most categories…..I’m just under no illusions regarding practicality vs effectiveness vs common sense.

Tiny, long bullets, from tiny short cases are fun. They don’t outperform anything but tinier, shorter, less combinations…..without inventing a new ‘requirement’ here and there that never existed before….Lots of that these days.

Nothing can,will or do matter more,than bullets. That simplistic constant,reliably fhuqks with the heads,of them who shoot the least. Hint.

Just sayin'................

That’s about the nicest I heard you explain that in the many years that you’ve been saying it. Well done.

In a general sense, you aren’t wrong. Let me ask you this, have you experimented any with heavy for caliber “match” bullets on game? Because here’s the deal. I don’t use them because of their long range capabilities. I do find that high bc is helpful when starting with lower velocities because you maintain what you start with further at all ranges.

So what you are describing as matters on game is bore size and velocity. What you are telling me is you recognize the same factors I do as being important for killing. Basically we know that killing his caused by tissue damage. If you are using traditional controlled expansion hunting bullets like the partition, then your “cone of destruction” as I like to think of it is heavily dependent on caliber and velocity. The smallest part of your cone is where the bullet enters. The bullet starts to deform within a few inches of entering the game and will continue forward cause a tunnel roughly twice the caliber size to be drilled through the animal causing bone, nerve and tissue damage. The bones break and help stop the animal. Tissue damage results in blood loss which means the animal bleeds to death. Nerve damage can cause some paralysis helping the animal stop. The faster the bullet went, the further it was going to go before it stopped. Because a tradition bullet mostly holds together you need a fair bit of velocity to deform it and drive it forward as it expands. All basic stuff right?

For the longest time, I used primarily Nosler partitions. I have killed a whoooollllleeee bunch of animals with a 140 grain partition out of a 7-08 and a fair number with a 150 grain partition out of the 270. I used these bullets as replacements for more tradition cup and core bullets out of the same 7-08, 308’s, 270’s, 30-06’s etc. I liked these bullets and thought this was the best compromise for expansion AND penetration for a long time.

Which brings me to what I use now. Primarily ELD-M bullets that are heavy for caliber. They expand faster, they cause a wider cone of destruction going forward. Not because they expand and make a pretty mushroom like the partition, but because they fragment violently and launch secondary missiles all through the shot area. The amount of tissue damage is hard to comprehend until you have seen it. I enjoy doing little necropsies just to see what these bullets are capable of. The reason you go heavy for caliber isn’t just the flight through air characteristics, but because you get this violent wounding AND deep penetration in game. Most shots I’ve taken with these bullets exit with a half dollar or so sized hole. Nearly all the rest sit under the skin on the off side. The secondary missiles from the animals own bones encountering primary missiles and shattering are devastating.

When I first was put onto this concept and began playing with it, I believed 7mm and 30 calibers were required for this effect. I have now played with 6.5mm 147’s enough to emphatically state they work in the same manner. I am still shooting game to see if the 6mm and down will match my experiences with the larger bullets. So far, I will say they do. I am not entirely to the point that I will commit to a full custom rifle in a 6mm, but I’m pretty close to being there based on what I’ve seen so far.

Agreed, i need a boot in the ass for not buying a Kimber Caprivi 375 H&H for 1750 cash with one of the prettiest sticks of walnut i've ever seen, the rifle was flawless!!!!!

When bullets are equal, it’s everything else that matters.

It’s like saying the tires matter most, while ignoring everything else…..but then everyone can run the same tires. It's often a dead horse used to cover for lack of common sense elsewhere.

….and yes, I’ve put plenty of ELD-Ms and other ‘match’ stuff into meat. They can work spectacularly. They can fail spectacularly. A case where they placement and what they hit matters far more than BC.

It is a Contrived/Delusional World,that projectiles are "equal",let alone close. Hint.

Feel free to use your Imagination and Pretend,to salve Reality in the manner you NEED most. I rather enjoy the concocted excuses,of those who do the least,while bitching the most,as they obliviously extoll their Dumbfhuqktitude. Hint.

Just sayin'.............

In no world are bullets equal. The bullet strikes the game and does the work, or fails to do the work. Everything else just determines the velocity the bullet is being asked to perform at. The bullet itself doesn’t perform differently just because the name on the case head is different.

ok, you're crazy

you want half the rifle, pay half the money...not a wrong choice, not perfect though...perfection costs double

No I'm not missing that at all. I've been shooting eld-m's heavy for cal for awhile. I can't remember when I migrated away from the lighter more delayed controlled expansion bullets driven harder to my preferred formula of moderate velocities with heavy for cal, or more specifically high SD, bullets of rapid controlled expansion characteristics and have been getting way more drt's and shorter recoveries burning a fraction of the powder, I was an early adopter of this, my 308 is eating 168 eld-m's....not the eldx or mono's or fusions etc.....my grendels eat 123gr eld-ms......I've been banging on about this formula for a long long time, heck maybe you understand so well because of it lol. So we are on the same page. It's subjective though and some simply prefer more insurance and tougher bullets but they have to spend more time tracking lol. Free world.

6.5 CM is still not the universal cartridge, it is so very good though and will become just as universal one day perhaps, splitting hairs. I understand it very well. I have hunted exclusively with a 6.5 Grendel for 6 years fyi...I had to be different. Moose/sheep/wolf/muley/whitetail/black bear and antelope from 10-420 yards, average shot distance 160-165 now and average recovery distance about 11 yards with 123 gr eld-m....all Alberta Big Game.

And because I wanted a perfect rifle I bought the sako peak 90 and my fav 6.5 grendel 123gr combo is literally the 3/4 scale version of a 308 168gr. So I could have gone creedmoor but eh....I have my grendels....the easy choice and smartest choice imo was the 308...very few can drive well enough to kill past 550 so it's not really an issue and it's actually got lots left at 600 for deer size game and regular white box 168's. Only immortals are consistent killers past 600, the 308 with modern ammo fits the bill without any fat. I have traditionally hated all 30 cals I've ever owned...so this is a departure but logic prevailed on all categories possible.

Why it's the universal cartridge and important to me? That if somehow my eld-m's didn't make the trip...I could grab any 308 regular pointed soft point off a shelf and still finish a hunt to likely 400 although my 168 eld'm can take me to 550.....Majority of hunts exponentially end up closer to the barrel from 400 than anything else by a long long margin. Also resale I consider. Vanilla does have some benefits but I definitely use the most up to date understanding of modern terminal ballistics in my bullet choice. Nice derail you started though.

I’m the op. I don’t derail my own thread lol.

Those are good data points for me though. Me and rocpyro or however he’s spelled it in this thread, have been debating how light the eld-m bullets can be and still get the necessary penetration. Specifically in the context of the 308 as he has a couple of projects in that direction. I’ve been skeptical.

If you are getting it done with the lighter bullets and the Grendel, I’m surprised but encouraged by the possibilities.

Throughout my life I have watched my father kill untold numbers of hogs with a 20” barreled 308 shooting federal 165 grain game kings. I have seen a lot die, however, I’ve seen a significant number of them keep going or jump back up with bullets in them and some things that I don’t like. That has been significantly less likely with the 208’s out of an ‘06.

In EVERY world, the SAME bullet is the SAME bullet.

A 108 ELD-M is a 108 ELD-M, whether it’s a 6 ARC or a 6 CM or a 6 BR…..and the difference between them all and how the bullet performs? The velocity. The range of variables you’d base a velocity window on is designated by (drumroll here) that dirty, nasty, DIFFERENT case head stamp.

Shocking, I know…..but you can’t run from the fact that your 6CM won’t work in your 6 ARC, and one will flat out perform the other, based on everything BUT that bullet…..which can be stuffed in either of them.

The point is that too many folks get tunnel vision on all of this and way over think and over emphasize the simplest of things…..that can be checked off across the board, right up front.


We’re seeing some great developments that are maximizing efficiency and performance in ways we haven’t seen to this extent. None of it makes any bullet or new case design exclusive or that can’t be applied to all the other stuff that’s come before it. Some act like the wheel is being reinvented and that physics can be altered. I’m just saying there’s a point at which we’re chasing stuff that’s been caught long ago.

Right, then we are saying the same thing. The cartridge is just a means to achieve a certain velocity. I am generally looking for around 2700 fps at the muzzle. I am wanting a cartridge that can give me that velocity with a high sd bullet out of a 16” barrel and as little powder burning as possible to achieve it.

^^^^….and that can be had in the exact same setup that’ll give you 3000 fps, by just loading down, and still have the option for 2700 with a heavier bullet that comes along later, in the same size/weight/recoil/etc setup…..without reinventing a bolt setup for such a narrow niche. That’s supreme inefficiency in the name of efficiency. Lol

I’ve chased my tail on this very thing plenty. Also, I’ve got too much time in my hands recovering from more surgery courtesy of Sam right now.

I have several Kimber rifles I love but am losing faith in the company to make any forward strides in the rifle category. I went to an elk expo today and stopped by the Kimber booth. Two reps were there and apparently one had the southeast region. I asked them when rifles were gonna be produced at Troy again. They were unaware of the limited edition run that had been made there, and while speaking over each other they gave two wildly different answers on the status of their factories. I asked when the Talkeetna would be produced again. The guy who I took as the sales manager for the southeast said it would be a while because they could not get wood stocks. Hmmm. I tried to articulate the demand for used Montana 223 rifles and requested they highly consider returning that to production with an 8 twist barrel. He told me 223 was very regional, maybe folks in KY would shoot it but nobody else in the southeast does therefore there is not a market. He said 22-250 would be much more popular. So apparently no hope for a 223. I was blown away by their lack of product knowledge and unwillingness to take customer feedback.

thats corporate people for you they live in another world of daily meetings...

The NRA show is in Dallas next weekend. Maybe I can have a discussion about some of these ideas with someone who matters there.

haha, fair enough, you can derail you're own thread, and you did haha...

my 123 gr eld-m in the grendel are not light....they are heavy for cal lol, the SD is .252.....the SD of a 168 gr .308 bullet is .253.....basically identical, and in modern bullet shapes they are basically the same BC as well,

so applying the rest of the formula looks like this then....game, deer size game the general rule is .2 SD and elk size game .25 SD.....people usually think that with the .25 SD for elk size game rule also means you need a tougher construction, not so....it's about matching construction to impact velocity range for game intended....it's not hard to get this formula wrong, ie; 6mm ARC with 108 eld'm which are very heavy for cal....will perform better than that same bullet from a 6cm the larger the game goes as it will stay together better retaining more SD and going deeper....put the 108 in a hyper fast 6mm and it will be good for only wolves or smaller because it's not tough enough to stay together so it's going to make a bigger grenade over a shorter distance,

308 velocity, or moderate velocity cartridges with bullets above average SD .25 or higher, in lighter construction are amazing for most big game we chase....you get your 18-24" penetrations over the useful ranges and dump the most work through that range.....run a 130 gr ballistic tip super fast though and you can knock those penetration differences in half and possibly only take a shoulder out...for visual, that's why guys run a 130 mono super fast in this case for big game...to hold together and keep all of its pathetic starting SD as possible, the mono guys do tend to end up doing much more tracking though

so the faster you drive a frangible bullet construction the more SD you need to start with so enough holds together to maintain required penetration depths

anyway, there's no calculators for this yet...so we have to live in the subjective and imagine how it all works, why a 6.5 creedmoor with a 120 mono can do elk size game but the ballistic tip is going to a deer choice only....

so just remember the formula....SD, construction, impact velocity - for game intended, and you'll get it right more than not, I used to prefer much more hp behind much tougher bullets, but lifetime observing and student and asking questions learned to objectify it as much as possible, now can burn much less power and end up with way more drt's and much shorter recoveries due to that understanding

a 6mm 108 is not a light bullet, but if it's light construction and big game is on the menu then you need to slow it down to match the construction to maintain it's penetration, if it were a mono you could drive it as hard as you like.....I would choose the ARC 108 eld-m over Creedmoor, and I would expect more reliable and consistent performance on big game....the Creedmoor window on that option doesn't land in it's efficiency range until way past where most hunting occurs, so a great niche choice for the 2% of elrh types but mostly steel punchers lol.....the ARC is a better choice for big game 6mm if liking that bullet

for those that reload and continually say 'but why? when you can load down or load this or that etc.'....try to keep the discussions in mind that lots do it off the shelf and most comparisons are made based on the standard saami data etc. etc. Nobody gives a sh1t in these chats about how infinitely more versatile reloading may make any given load and bullet......try to stay apples to apples so all the readers understand what's being said and compared

you can do whatever you want with reloading, big whoop, doesn't help the discussions frame the perspectives etc., gentle reminder lol

You are Pretending aloud with your GoogleFu,regarding wares you have never even seen,let alone shot. Hint.

Just sayin’………..

Yes it is.

What?? That’s not correct. popped a mule deer on the shoulder at 125 yards quartering too and the jacket was under the skin offside near the hip, launch speed was just under 3k. And it didn’t suck at 100 on antelop, 200 on another buck. 350 on an antelope doe. 375 on a whitetail doe. Moved on from a 243 so not continuing the experiment. Killing enough to feed a family of six with a 108gr eld from a 6br now 4 seasons.

Can’t comment on what’s typical or average or whatever but that’s pretty near average Ontario and the e 108 is a monster.

And just under 500 it makes softball size exits from a 6br on elk.

Which is a more efficient answer:
Crafting a handload OR even picking a different factory load, or adding a new CASE to launch the same bullet slower, and building an entire rifle to fit the niche?

Some here attempting to act like SD is consistent/predictable enough for them to educate others on expanding bullet design, is just telling everyone else here that they probably should have stopped listening to the self-proclaimed SD gurus long ago.

Why take a smaller case that needs a maxed out load in a long barrel to get into a ‘window’ that an existing, larger case gets you into with short, handy barrels, runs suppressed as well or better, comes in just as light, etc?

I think there’s plenty of stuff going for mini-case loads/cartridges/bullet combos. I think all this attempting to argue that being smaller somehow makes them better or that they do more than other stuff, because they’re smaller?…. is patently ludicrous. You can’t argue for using less powder as a pro for a small case and against handloading as a factor for others. If you NEED them to fit into a smaller design or (gasp) an AR magazine constraint, THEN they can get far more practical vs other offerings.

There’s too much circular logic and logical fallacy being fed on BS with some concepts here.

Juxtapose a 6br to a 243, both 21” barrels.

A 6br burns 30gr of powder at a full case. Brass life, barrel life and load stability is very good. Stupid ez to load for. 2800 with a 108.. you can shoot a lot and expect almost zero vertical at distance

A 243 I need 40gr powderif we are using go to temp stable powders like h4350.Barrel life is halved. I gain 150.. inside of 600 yards the gains are absolutely minimal. Except I get more recoil, hotter barrels and my lands are moving quickly.

Now I could download a 243 to 2800 but experience shows my loads won’t shoot nearly as consistently. And I’m burning a lot more powder for absolutely no gain.

Real light on 6arc experience but it’s slightly larger cousin 6br is my pick for all round cartridge. Might have had a montucky in 6br that was pretty sweet. Traded it for a stainless 243.. that was a mistake. But then again montuckies are trash anyways.

Problem with Montuckies are the stocks suck in terms ofconstruction and ergos, the trigger is junk, the bolt is beyond junk… controlled round feed sucks, oh and the heavy stock/butt pad pencil barrel combo is dumb.

Does the 6 gt using the 109 ELD-M offer anything over a creedmoor shooting the 108 ELD-M?

Curious from an on-game standpoint and long range shooting view. I haven’t seen anything talking about the 109 and how it does on game. The 108 seems to be great.

this doesn't surprise me at all whisky 4 guy...the 108 has a little higher sd than the 123 6.5 I shoot from grendel with off the shelf everything including ammo, I stopped looking for it on a quartering to bull moose at 125 with a 2552 fps launch when it took near tip of lung, hamburger the entire liver and then off into the paunch I wasn't digging but easy 20" minimum speculation, moose went 15 yards

quartering fat whitetail doe at 420 inside one edge of front shoulder through 15" and exited drt and that's with a 16.1" barrel launch at 2386 fps, so about 1820 fps impact from recollection, either 1800 or 1820 fps impact at my elevation....

you understand the formula correctly, but driving a squishy bullet much faster pushes it's more effect 'consistent' window for game intended out further, you may run into more inconsistent results hitting tougher parts of these critters outside that window? sounds like you're hitting the squishy parts well though....that's what I was trying to say, the eldm will do more through more types of parts from about 2400-1700 fps impact window, that's it's consistency and reliability window from what I've seen...the faster impacts there's not much left but still going deep enough on our game intended, you're going much faster, don't hit the less squishy parts up close...you may find there's a chink in your armour

I've shot lots with it so that's my take, you're driving things pretty quick...but still getting there up close, you may have some shoulder issues up close one day perhaps, maybe not, maybe that sd is high enough to cover you even at 50 yards on a shoulder. Have seen first hand much faster and less sd shoulder hits that were only that, tripod deer never to be seen again so we know the magic lies somewhere in there....you've got it covered, you're going faster than I would but it's working and covered by enough sd, you can slow it down a fair bit and see very consistent....arc out of the box velocity for the 108 is about ideal, even from a stubby barrel...

we went (me and kids) 6 years, 20 animals, 7 species of Alberta big game, 10-420 yards, with a 6.5 Grendel and factory 123 gr eldm, not a huge sample size but I understood the formula when we started the grendel phase and only surprises were pleasant ones, average recovery distance is about 11 yards, average shot distance 160-165, I documented every kill, the fastest we hit anything was likely mature black bear facing at 10 yards, still saw 16" under the chin before core exited and some of the jacket hung up after spine under hide...that was 2386 fps launch, one huge body mature muley buck my other kid dumped at 192 from a really fast proof barrel at 2605 fps launch, it may have hit faster than that black bear but without running calculator, it was from up on ridge aiming down waiting for it to stand up, high shoulder, I dunno maybe 14" before same thing, core exit and jacket hung up under hide, jacket peeled back to inside the laster 1/4 of it's original starting length...most broadside deer etc. exit every single time at any range, need steep quartering for a chance at keeping things, I got one at 200 yards a whitetail buck broke second last rib on way in and then offside through brisket and in the last bit of meat just under hide just off the centreline in front of brisket, it was 81% of the bullet left, peeled back to aprox 40% of original length, 2000 fps impact (from the short barrel 2386 fps launch) again.....so thats what you can expect from a 2000 fps impact. That was easily 18" on that buck and some thick stuff on exit only thing stopping it, and of course a lighting drt....

so you can gauge how much of your 108 eldm will be left from various impacts and saved bullets. I saved data from a guy who killed a whitetail buck broadside at 1700 fps impact with the 123 eldm, he didn't weigh it but it was caught offside hide and the perfect mushroom, nice long tail, textbook bullet...easily 90% retention but probably a littler higher and maybe more like 95% retention....so from there it's acting like hard pushed accubond, I'm sure will do really well to 1600 but may get a bit pencil after that...that 1700 fps was pulled back to leaving about 60% of the original length...you're pushing that eld-m pretty fast but hey...it's working for you, we haven't had a need to stay away from shoulders though, you might in close? maybe never on deer? could be an issue on something bigger up close? you're still running a better formula than many who go afield though...

a 6.5 grendel with 16.1" barrel and the factory 123 gr eld-m load is 2386 fps launch...it's basically in the perfect eldm window from the muzzle to 500, zero fat...there's the min end benchmark....that same ammo went 2552 out of a 23.5" cz 527 American...around 2500 from a 20" howa....and from a 24" proof carbon it went 2605....nice to just grab off the shelf and nice low pressure and sound signature, game sticks around, no need to drive to dasher speeds/pressures imo...I think people sometimes get a little hung up on speed....these .25 sd or higher eldm are monsters at moderate velocities, we will get our own version of what window of performance we think the eldm is best suited....for game intended....my take is 2400-1700....now everyone can go see where that lands for distance windows in various rigs or possibilities they may be looking at

the arc factory 108 load basically pushes that same 6.5 grendel 123 window downrange another 170 yards, starts to get outside of the ranges I plan to hunt and kill these days but might be perfect for guys who set up to go to 600?....so is it still effective in those initial 170? oh I'm sure no deer will ever notice...might get a little dicey on some elk size game game on shoulders?...I've only tested in the 2400-1800 type windows though...what I've seen with near 2400 fps impacts is that's as fast as I want to hit things with a .25 sd eldm and still know I'll go through enough of most types of most critters front ends from any angle

Is 6BR even a commercial cartridge these days?

How did any debate about the 6BR become a thing here? ….or comparing it to a 243 as opposed to the 6 ARC vs 6 CM brought up earlier? How’s the SD compare between the two in a 108? ….how about if one just pics a different bullet for the velocities and game? I mean, sure…it’s a radical idea, but….;)

I guess maybe there’s this meaningful niche for seeing how far we can stretch the smallest of things these days. I’m fine with that….but doesn’t mean it makes the most sense.

I’m fine with what a 6.5CM (or 708 and 308 or 6CM even) does in 16-18” barrels, suppressed, on game at any range most would ever use it for. Off the shelf. Wonder if it burns up barrels too fast? Does anyone really care? I’m sure it recoils less than a 21” unsuppressed 6BR/ARC….especially in something with a great, lightweight, recoil-mitigating stock design like a Montana.
Doh

lol, agreed, I stick to what's off the shelf in all discussions so everyone can play, go to the calculators and build their imaginary rigs etc.

also agree on short barrels and why they are great at times, for slowing the right bullets down and getting them into the perfect performance windows for game intended

one 6.5 grendel we have at 8.25 lbs is about 6.5 ft/lbs recoil energy, you watch everything in the scope, it's awesome...kids dialled up deer at 300 and 355 and then I took one after at 420....could even see that slow ass 123 fly due to the lighting, we were only sending them at 2386 fps, watching them arc into those deer was incredible and wind slight in our face they didn't hear anything from that 52,000 psi slow ass launch....just fill the tags across the valley, no suppressor required lol

all exited as well, it's tough to keep these 123 eldm (.25 sd or higher eldm) in a deer in those impact windows (2400-1800 fps)...

no, it's not

I won't argue that it's not in theory and numbers etc. etc. but it's still not making it to as many shelves with enough options globally, or even north American wise, to out universal the 308. Is there data that shows the highest ammo sales out there? The 308 will be at the top still.

I'm not sure when the 6.5 CM will equal it and then finally surpass it....but we aren't there yet....I believe it will go there and deserves to become the 21st century universal cartridge while the 308 ruled 100 years or whatever...the CM will do the same as the next universal cartridge. Getting closer every year though but the 308 is still the king...I hate to say it as I hate 30 cals....but I can still say it lol. Lets just say the 308's days are numbered as the universal cartridge king.

I don't disagree with this post per se, but ammo availability with the bullets being talked about in this thread, IMO/E, greatly favor the 6.5 Creedmoor. I see a whole lot more factory ammo on the shelf with heavy for caliber, high BC bullets for it than the 308.

Stinkycoyote hasn't hunted with a 6MM ARC nor a suppressor, and his info on the 308 is something he came up with himself. He's completely and utterly full of hot air.

^^^^….and he’s bragging about a 123 ELDM in a Grendel, at low velocities and long range. Sorry, inside about 300, the 6.8 NAB 110s and even 90gr GD have been far more emphatic, penetrating, damaging, etc than the 123 ELDM from any Grendel was for myself and others. SD? LOL

Does it work? Sure. It’s not something I’d brag about over a LOT of other things though……at least if you’re not where you can prick stuff past 350 and watch it for the next mile or two. Why not just use the 140-147 ELDM in the CM instead?

lol, don't worry, since I had been running the grendel for quite awhile it took all of 2 seconds to run the 6 arc and weight things out, it is like splitting a c-hair, but....if you make the list of attributes and make the list of versatility as big as you can.....the 6.5g is the more balanced, while the 6 arc has a couple higher win points on that list.....that takes away from a couple other points and runs them below the balance....the 6.5g trades nothing and does the most where 30 powder burners will hunt and play, it is no different that people understanding the 6.5 cm is going to get the nod for better balance than the 6 cm....with wins on barrel life, bullet windows, actual hunting distance etc. etc. always balance better for all the 6.5 vs 6 comparisons in same cases

you can't go wrong with either choice imo and I love that the arc came out as it will simple further flourish a great case and keep everyone in the game developing the best 21st century interpretations of 30 gr powder burners that one can get off the shelf....

the Ferrari boys like to get all boned up for the hotrods and flashy new things so the arc is the flavour....but run the full list of pros and cons and apply to what you're going to use it for and see where things shake out....those that get hung up on just bc/sd will miss a few things here and not see where that pulls away from the balance as you add too much speed etc. on barrel life or bullet performance windows for construction and actual use on game by the 98%

and the Ferrari types very easily get butt hurt when their new hot rod gets the 'what's the retail on one of those things' treatment lol

prick things? with a .25 sd bullet at 1800 fps and built to open well at those distances still is different than what? it blows through deer and drt's them....that's a fairly common understanding in ballistic fluent world, don't get lost in the headstamps boys....we know thats a silly to do

the 6 arc puts it's final impact velocity whatever a guy chooses it to be about another 170 yards further than the 6.5g (108 vs 123) off the shelf compares, same barrel lengths etc. For quick perspectives. It's not hard to see though that even with a 16" barrel 6.5g 123 that it carries more than everyone else's usual impact velocity requirements to past where 95% of all game is taken. So to say the arc is somehow in a different league when it's literally a c-hair of minute differences to discuss is hilarious

some like to carry things they think they will actually fill tags with beyond where the 98% actually fill tags with, float your boat, I'll take a 123gr over a 108gr all day....in fact the 108 and all 6mms while on paper never did make my list because I already shot a number of things with 6mms and my lowest criteria limit on bullet was 120 grains.....so no 6mm will make it into my house, I only hunt

I know there's great options but there's more balance and benefit from the 123gr eld-m over the 108 for majority of what anyone who priorities hunting will do. Short barrel efficiency...add that to the list...slower fatter heavier stuff is more efficient in short barrels...another win for my list because I wanted a short barrel...it's threaded for if one day perhaps we can have a can up here....perfection, perfect cartridge choice for the barrel length desire etc. It would be a 700 yard set up in my old 24" proof carbon grendel launching at 2605 fps....4-500 is far enough

what did I say about 308 that you object to?

Sectional density is important to me for penetration in game with frangible bullets more than the bc for its flight characteristics. The high BC is a bonus that is also helpful with the lower starting velocities from short barrels. The ELD-M bullets fragment so heavily I do believe they benefit heavily from the added mass to aid in penetration.

The benefit of a wider bore in a shorter barrel for velocity isn't as great as you seem to be figuring on. It matters when comparing bullets of the same weight, not as much when you go to the lighter weights in the smaller bores. The 6mm 108's run faster than the similar sectional density 6.5's. The higher sectional density bullets seem to outperform the lighter bullets for penetration, and that just serves to increase the volume of tissue destruction. That has been my experience, I am always looking to add more experience to that. However, it has been true in 30 calibers, 7mm's, and 6.5's so far.

As far as comments on 308, I'm not sure what they are referring to? Maybe just your discussion about how many variants are available as loaded ammo. I frankly don't care how many loads are available. Most of the newer cartridges are coming loaded in the bullets I care about. It isn't particularly relevant to me in a search for the optimum combination how many variations of core-lokts I can buy in a cartridge.

it's a future proofing thing, agree with everything you just said, the 6.5cm is going nowhere and will likely surpass the 308 as the universal cartridge one day but that's thing about trying to dethrone a 'universal' cartridge that's stood the test of time, it came around in 1952....and it took awhile likely to become the universal cartridge which I'm guessing it had to dethrone the 30-06 (released 1906)?....look how close they still both are universally considered....anyway, the 6.5cm has joined the club....but it's not yet at the front of the pack, it's advanced it's position very quickly though....2008 release...some 102 years after the 30-06 lol, and 56 years after the 308....fun data for the day

and yes on figuring out the range of performance window for a given bullet (construction and sd) for game size class intended....for me the .25 sd rapid construction formula window is about 2400-1700 fps....that's what I've found, by 6 years of my own use over 20 animals and 7 species.....plus studying others experiences and data

does the little bit extra sd of the 108 6mm option add maybe another 100 fps on the front end of that? maybe 2500-1700 impact? maybe...does it offset having the extra weight and being over 120 grains for a say 'min weight' threshold? maybe not....guys will figure it out, if.....if....I were to go with a 6mm anything, it would be the arc in 108 eld-m....it would get me the closest to what I love about the 6.5g 123gr......but given the choice of either.....I'm 6.5g all day long, for me it does more, offers more, where it matters more

for the hot rod latest trend guys...the arc is going to be the shiny new barbie lol

and yeah, curious to hear what the goat has to say about the 308 comment? game on

The best “rifle” Kimber could make, if they went outta bidness, again.👍

LOL….I guess they’ve got a few left to get as good as a 700 then.

I think the ceiling for impact velocity is a bit higher than the 2500 you are factoring on. I was told to keep impacts below 2700 for the heavier bullets.


I’m not exactly a Kimber fan. Don’t any of their 1911’s despite owning quite a few different 1911’s. However, their rifles offer a package of features no one else is really offering. You may not value those features, but a number of people do. I have had discussions with people about offering actions built to a higher standard that offer the same features in a trim package. It’s all a numbers game though.

What features are you talking about?

I agree with you on the 308 Win as being a more versatile "universal" hunting cartridge. The 6.5 creed doesn't meet bison legal minimum caliber and minimum energy laws here in Alaska. The 308 winchester does.

Anyhow, here's my general purpose 308 win load for anything Alaska hunting:

46 grains leverevolution
Standard COAL
200 grain Norma Oryx
Standard primer
Winchester Brass
2600 fps
3000 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle

I've tested every 200 grain spitzer in the 308 win for over 13 years now.

The 200 grain oryx expanded the widest, far or near and always retains almost all its weight. Even at 500 yds, slight but acceptable expansion.

Where are you getting this data? What I've seen of recent vintage shows higher factory ammo sales of 6.5 Creedmoor.

The aspects of the rifle that have been discussed throughout this thread?

Oh gotcha.👍

Hopefully a guy doesn’t have to fuuck with it like other “kimbers”. Pass the push feed as well.👍

oh....that's what was bugging you...ammo sales, ok, well....if your observation of what's selling at vintage shows is better than my observations of how many options are available and more places etc. then ok...you win, maybe, I actually don't know where the best data for this is...I heard several times over the years that the 308 is still the number one selling factory ammo....not sure where guys get that info but it's probably out there somewhere

at some point if/when the 6.5cm does become the universal cartridge we'll all have a fairly similar 'feeling' about what's the highest selling cartridge.....if you think the cm is there already that's fine, I don't, I ran a thread recently on Canada forum for most likely to find cartridges on shelves in remote places...verifies that also, guys who were remote and going remote were checking.....the 6.5cm wasn't making any list there lol....308 was the winner....does that trump your vintage show observations?

not really worth arguing about just yet...the cm is at least in the wheelhouse now lol, could be awhile before it's clear it has dethroned the king

ouch, I can feel that one haha

great reloaders perspective

if the parameters are to include global a 30-06 might be the winner as it's known the .331 sd 220gr solids can take dg also....but even global you're likely finding 308 ammo on the shelves in more places and more readily...the 6.5 cm may never actually dethrone the 308....it's gonna give it a good run though, but a heavy factor and maybe the ultimate factor is which one sells the most factory ammo....that settles it, not sure if/where that data is available but heard it several times before guys saying the 308 is the most sold factory ammo.....makes sense but I never did bother to ask where you find that out, felt right...probably is right lol

Tried to post a link, but couldn't get it to work. Data I saw had the Creed at #3 in ammo sold and #1 in rifles sold. .308 was #2 on rifles sold and #6 in ammo. Data from 2022.

Yeah so vintage shows aren’t a thing. Not sure if you’re off your meds or doubled up but it’s time to figure out your dosage and stick to it.

you're the one who said it man....who's off their meds? anyway...I concede lol, you win, 6.5 cm is now the universal cartridge and outsells the 308 and is found on more shelves across the globe than the 308 and every other cartridge option

Attention to detail and reading comprehension would go a long way towards helping your dilemma.

Last winter I went to the three largest sporting goods stores here locally and tallied up all the popular factory ammo by SKU's on the shelves of each store. The 6.5 CM beat everything by a wide margin, including my favorite 308 Win.

coming right along, that must mean it's the universal cartridge then, your 'area' is same as 'all area' math...just saying

I never said that, but if Bozeman, Montana isn't a good, national average representative of big game hunting, and firearm ownership I don't know where that might be...

All right. So I am going to go find the Kimber booth at NRA show and see if I can’t discuss placing an order as a group buy type deal for a Kimber in one of three calibers.

What would be the preference ranked by those following this thread?

A) 22 arc twisted 1:7. Given the popularity now of the 223 montanas this seems like demand should be there for an order.

B) 6 arc with 1:8 twist.

C) 6 creedmoor. Should be the easiest request since just a different bore size.

Asking this in full recognition the answer could be 100% no with a point at laugh at me for asking it seriously. However, I want to try cause why not.

I’d be down to order any of the three. However beings they didn’t even recognize the popularity of 223 I would be prepared to walk away dumbfounded and pissed like I did last weekend…

Trying to figure out who's behind the stinkycoyote sock puppet???

None of the three. They won't do it. You'd be lucky to get them to do a .223 with a 1 in 7 twist.

Kimber will continue to concentrate on their handgun sales. Tuffshitt on the rest of it.

Shoot, I would take the 223 with 1:7 twist I think. Again, I recognize this isn’t gonna happen. I am going to try though. I want the smaller bolt face too bad.

Just buy a p.o s. Kimber and rebarrel it.

6 ARC or 223.

22 ARC has too much overlap with a proper length/7 twisted 223, without the universal brass and dies.

I can follow your thoughts there for sure. The main thinking for the 22 ARC would be having it geared up for using the 88 gr ELD-M.

Steelhead.....you sound silly Bro.

Somebody got poopy pants lol

1:7 22Creed.

Yeah this is probably the one that makes the most sense. The 22 Creedmoor is the new hotness and would actually sell if Kimber could get them onto shelves. Though they'd probably go with a 1 in 8 twist, and that's what was spec'd from SAAMI.

I think a 1/7 Kimber 223 with ~2.6" length would be the perfect platform for the 88 ELDM. LVR should be able to get, what, like 2700 fps out of it? Plenty to expand out to 600+ yards... now I'm drooling.

I shoot them faster than that,in a goodly smattering of custom spouts. 2.600" will do it all and nicely,which is how my 1-7" Rocktucky 223AI is massaged(Weatherby ejection port cut). Hint.

Supersonic to 1300yds at Low Tide in Winter and simply fhuqking AMAZING +P+. Hint.

Just sayin'.............

Cool. I hope all the folks after little bullets/cases and longer/faster twist barrels get what they want out of things. I’m after stuff that’s efficient in 16-18” and does its best work for medium game at under 400…..so I bought another Montana in 308 today.

Hh4 that’s why I jumped on a 308 Adirondack when it came up last year. Shoots nice. Just need to find the time to hunt with it, I am no stranger to the 308.

So I made it to NRA and had what I felt was an informative conversation with some people there at the Kimber booth. They were fairly guarded about specifics, but I felt like I could make some inferences out of what they did say.

In a general sense, I was assured over and over the entire line is being revamped and there will be major announcements at shot show. One thing he said was certain was the stock options were going to change and there would be some things that hadn’t been seen before in that regard.

He was also promising there are new calibers coming that hadn’t been offered before while keeping the ones currently offered. He didn’t want to give specifics about which calibers, but we did talk about some newer calibers out there in our general conversations that felt related.

I feel very hopeful about the potential for the new offerings that are being worked on. Will probably hold off on commissioning any new projects until I see what they have coming. I think there will be some things along the lines of what I am wanting.

I’m hoping Kimber do start kicking the long arms along a bit soon. They are not exporting anything at all to Australia. I’m hoping that changes soon too.

Tough to beat a Kreedmire,with a .697 BC 147gr clipping along at 2700fps+. Hint.






Just sayin'.............

Interesting to hear Kimber might have something new in the works, and thanks for talking with them. Though you shouldn't hold your breath or delay any projects waiting for what's coming, as by the time the rifles hit stores you may have burned out a barrel on your project. As in, it might be a while. Plus their new stock option will probably be some vertical grip or chassis mess.

If they tossed 'em into a AG Privateer, I'd be happy enuff....

Exactly, groan...

I described the projects I had in mind that I’ve discussed on here. I asked him the question as basically, with what I described to you, would I benefit from seeing what’s coming? He said basically wait and see what we have at shot and I think you’ll be happy you waited.

It would be encouraging if something like what you detailed does come to fruition, but those guys are also salesmen, and it’s in their best interest to sell you a new rifle, instead of you buying used and building.

From that guy’s perspective, I’m buying one either way. Either buying one they may make now to chop up or buying one later.

Also, was just looking at the numbers from Gordon’s reloading tool. Says a 22 creed cut to 16” using RL 26 and 88 gr ELD-M’s can do just under 2890 fps. That seems like it answers a lot of question.