I've worked with / been around 2 pre QLA TCs and 2 QLA TCs. The two pre QLA rifles both shot (or shoot) conicals pretty well. The two rifles with QLA did not / do not. Among them was 1 .50, 1 .54, and 2 .58s, all Renegade/Big Boar sidelocks.
I was wondering if anyone else has noticed a pattern of the QLA interfering with accuracy instead of helping it, especially with conical bullets, or if other people are seeing improvement and I've just been unlucky.
Tom
Thats TC's biggest problems today with their inlines. Most get by with using powerbelts when they have to use a conical. I wont spend the $$$ on one of their inlines due to the fact that i will be stuck using one single projectile that may or may not shoot.
QLA is a fix for a conical problem, that came into being with manufacturing for the conical shooters, and the sabot shooters.
That is my take, anyway.
My Fix:
Make a short, lightweight, false muzzle. It seems to be more of a problem of getting projectile (conical & sabot/bullet) started straight to rifling.
In essence, would have to agree with you. If you want best accuracy with conical, the rifling has to be concentric on the end cut to bore. Kind of like the muzzle crown issue on any rifle barrel. Unless the taper portion of the rifling to QLA is noticeably bad, I have no issues with 2" accuracy at 100 with the right charge and conical. But I use a homemade false starter that is lightweight, loaded with a projectile I'm using for quick reload if needed.
Just guessing, but think the reason not much issue with sabots. Believe the sabot petals begain to open away from projectile in the QLA area, while the cup of sabot is still sealing gas flow. Just a theory, have no idea if I'm right. Just observation over many QLA equipped barrels.
See, I never had any accuracy problems with conicals BEFORE I had a gun with the QLA. I think the intent was to improve accuracy with them but it backfired making things worse instead of better.
My ol' .58 Big Boar, without QLA, would put 5 of the TC 555 grain bullets into about 4 to 4.5 inches at 100 yards which was not awesome but good enough for elk at any range I'd try a shot. The current TC custom shop renegade .58 I have which has QLA won't hold 5 of those in an 18" circle at 100 yards.
I've tried changing powders, caps, tried some other brands of bullets ... nothing does any better.
We can use sabots if we're hunting in a regular rifle season here but in the muzzleloader-only season they're explicitly banned so there's not much point in even trying them for me.
My most recent previous gun was a TC Renegade .50 with the QLA. It was not much better than the .58 with QLA with conicals, but it didn't do very well with patched round balls either.
Buddy of mine has a .54 Renegade w/o QLA ... it's a real good shooter.
Tom
Reading about this over on modern muzzleloading forum and guys there have cut the barrel down to get rid of the QLA. I don't shoot conicals so have no experience with that, but my Omega with the QLA shoots the saboted barnes very well.
Does anyone know exactly what year TC switched to the QLA?
I came across two Super XR Black Diamond 45s. They're the older ones with the 1:20 twist. Shortly after they were released, TC switched to the 1:28 twist. I'm sure they're AT LEAST four years old.
Should be on the porch by next week. Man, I sure hope they don't have the QLA on them...
I wanted the fast twist bc I'm going to attempt to stabalize a .358 200gr bullet. I've tried it with a 30 twist 45 and it just won't work. If this does work, look out!
The QLA doesn't get along with patched round balls very well for me. I use TC's "speed loaders". The QLA is just deep enough the patched ball doesn't quite hit the rifling and I've had a ball fall off the patch a couple times. Growl hiss snarl. Pour it all out and start over.
Doesn't seem to affect accuracy with round balls as drastically as it does accuracy with conicals, but it still rubs my fur backwards once in a while. (If you have a cat, you understand the results. :-))
As far as when it came out .. not sure. I would guess 4-5 years ago. When I got rid of the ol' Big Boar (a mistake, I should have tried a little harder to fix the ignition problems) and got the .50 Renegade when those were reintroduced, the .50 had it.
Tom
Not sure, but I'm guessing about the time of the Black Diamond/ThunderHawk or the one that you could buy interchangable/switch barrels for (can't even remember name of that one right now).
I'm gonna guess between 10 - 15 years ago,
.
Edit: Just remembered, T/C introuced the QLA shortly after the time saboted projectiles began to catch on due to the use of pistol bullets (availibilty) sub-bore to barrel caliber. Seem to recall T/C's answer to getting the pistol bullet to seat square to sabot, with a short starter.
So these things are going to have the QLA.
Dawggoneit!
I think the problem with the TC QLA is that its so darn long! What is it, about a 1" long qla? CVA/traditions i know only use MAYBE a 1/4" QLA and these rifles "Atleast cva" are not picky with conicals. Atleast i have never owned one that was fussy.
Nimrod,
Those rifles are likely 5-6 years old. I had a 1/20 twist .45 barrel, not sure what it was good for. I had T/C replace it.
Doc
T O M,
T?c has turned out some "QLA" barrels where the QLA was not cut correctly just as a bad crown on a center fire will not shoot accurately..
SKANE had a bad QLA on a new T/C Triumpth he bought last fall. T/C replaced the rifle.
I don't shoot conicals much anymore in my T/C Hawkin but there is a difference in conical rifling VS. sabot rifling.
I would send the barrel back to T/C customer service...you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
Doc
Doctor Encore is right about the 1 -20 twist. Will only handle light bullet/light charge loads. I got stuck with one in the new Contender. I think they went to 1/24 for the new Contender.
He is also right about the rifling depth. They optimized it for sabots, not round ball, or conicals sometime ago also.
At one time Green Moutain made the drop-in barrel for rifled/without QLA for round ball and conical. Don't know if they still do or not. Cabelas also listed the Green Mountain barrels, and several ML shops handled them also. Search might turn one up for the Hawken and Renegrade if they are still around.
Here is link to the info on bullet twist.
Search Precision Bullets for home page, lot of info there, along with chart mentioned before.
There is a guy here in states that handles all PB products, which save the international problem. Will try to find it, and maybe one of the Green Mountain barrels.
Here is link to the info on bullet twist.
Search Precision Bullets for home page, lot of info there, along with chart mentioned before.
There is a guy here in states that handles all PB products, which save the international problem. Will try to find it, and maybe one of the Green Mountain barrels.
http://www.prbullet.com/s45.htm
Here is link to the guy in the 48, located in Iowa IRC.
Have dealt with him bulk orders 3 or 4 times, and good man to deal with each time. Basically all of PBs products available, and same page. Note the shipping break on bulk orders.
http://blackpowderbullets.com/accurate%20muzzleloading%20shipping%20information.html
IMHO, QLA is at best a solution to a non-existent problem and at worst turns good barrels into bad fenceposts.
I'm surprised T/C still hangs on to it.
Let's put the QLA to bed. An answer to a question that was never asked. Pure BS. Argue that, and you don't shoot conicals.
Now let's get back to the idea of a fast twist 45. Why did the 20 twists fail? We were shooting the wrong bullets through them. It was an idea before it's time. Way too fast for a .40 bullet.
Not only that, but we didn't have a BP sub that would get us the velocity needed for a 45. Enter Blackhorn 209.
I agree, when shooting a .40 saboted bullet out of a 45, yes a 28 or 30 twist seems to be the balls. In fact, I have done some crazy $hit with a 30 twist Knight Elite and a .40 dia 200gr SST at 2500fps. Stupid accuracy.
Now, consider a .358 bullet out of a 20 twist 45 cal MLer. EVERYONE abandoned them bc they wouldn't shoot a .40 bullet (not surprisingly). We were shooting the wrong bullet. Thankfully MMP and PR now make a sabot for us (actually they're both made by MMP).
I initially played with this out of my three 30 twist 45s. Terible results.
The twist was wrong. I resurected a couple of the pre-recall Black Diamonds with the 20 twist 45s and now I've got something to play with.
Think about it, everyone who is rebarreling their MLIIs are doing it with 20 or 22 twist Pacnor 45 bbls. Shooting sabotless or a Barnes 195 saboted out of these seems to be the balls.
Now, why not use either MMPs or PRs .357/45 sabot and put a .358 bullet down the bore shoot a rifle bullet out of that charcoal burner.
More to come.
All this being said, my dream front stuffer is a Ruger #1 action threaded to a .45 krieger 28 inch 16 twist bbl.
Until then, I will continue to get my $200 Black Diamond 20 twist 45s to gobble up BH209 and give me a "cheap" alternative to smokeless.
NimrodRX,
When T/C was marketing the 1/20 .45 barrel their bullet offerings were the re-packaged Hornady 180 gr and 200 gr bullets.
I have range shot 5 T/C Encore/Omega 1/20 twist rifles. One Encore and 1 Omega shot sub MOA.. 3 other barrels would not group at all. Most shooters blamed the twist..yet for whatever reason T/C replaced more .45 barrels regardless of twist (1.20 vs 1/28).
My conclusion is that the .45 was more succeptable to pressure curves and barrel harmonics in relation to powder charges.
I spent time talking to Cecel Epps on this issue years ago. A T/C .45 barrel has to be internally "perfect" to shoot well.
T/C should have used smaller diameter bar stock on the .45 barrel instead of the standard .50 caliber bar stock. The .45 is over 1/2 pound heavier than the .50 caliber rifle.
Doc
Now, why not use either MMPs or PRs .357/45 sabot and put a .358 bullet down the bore shoot a rifle bullet out of that charcoal burner.
Been done for several years already, and not only out of the .45, but also the .50. With a great deal of accuracy too.
All thanks to Del Ramsey and his sabot genius. One reason today's 1 -20 will work with .45.
And the depth of the rifling has a little to do with it also.
My 1:20 twist Encore barrel wasn't bad because of the twist, it was just plain BAD. Washboard rifling and QLA that was surely way off center.
The G2 barrel I had was deep cut grooves, and required charges of 60 to 70 gr. equivalent charges for averages of 3 to 4 inches at 100 unless air temps were high, or barrel warm. Then it required further reduction of powder charges.
Worst pile of destroyed sabots I've ever seen. No consistency at all in their appearance. Everything from completely burnt through base or side of base, to about any kind of petal destruction you can imagine. It appeared those sabots were getting ripped/burnt badly with the higher equivalents of powder charges.
Groups with T/C maxis ran about 3 to 4 at 100 also, and required the light charges for that. Finally give up on it. Junked the barrel. What with all of the hoopla of replacing barrels, not replacing barrels, some guys not having issues, predominately most here having issues, the scuttlebutt here pretty much killed any sales for the G2 .45 ML here for a good while. Ended up with a 50 cal. on mine. Greater selection of components, and it handles the .357 Duplex sabots very well.
My 1:20 twist Encore barrel wasn't bad because of the twist, it was just plain BAD. Washboard rifling and QLA that was surely way off center.
I was waiting for you to join in on this thread, you shoot a fair amount of lead boolits if I recall.
Doc
TC is about selling muzzleloaders. The biggest market for selling muzzleloaders is the chap that wants to send a couple pellets and sabot down the tube as easily and maintenance free as possible. They market the QLA as easy to load - and that makes sense for the person that's going to use his/her muzzleloader once or twice a year. Same reason for the speed breech - easy to clean etc. For TC, it's simple numbers. Easy to use & maintain, means more sales. QLA is just another tool in the toolbox for them.
Now, I've heard similar complaints on the conicals not flying where they're supposed to fly - that flat out sucks. I've never run a conical down the tube of any of my muzzleloaders so I can't speak to the cure for that. But, like Doctor_Encore stated, I had a bad QLA on my brand spankin' new Triumph and they sent me, not just a new barrel, they sent me a new GUN. And, did so in less than a week. (help from Doc Encore didn't hurt
) In my eyes, yes, my eyes, the Triumph is the perfect muzzleloader - lightweight, easy maintenance, simple/rugged styling and the one they sent me is wonderfully accurate. My solution, if they weren't going to help me on the QLA was to have it cut off, I liked the rest of the package too much to say buh-bye.
If it's not shooting, send it in, especially now, in the off-season where you don't have to sweat an upcoming hunting trip or something.
sk
Skane -
You 'n' Doc 'bout got me convinced to call TC. I guess I knew I should do that, sometimes I just gotta be clubbed upside the head with the obvious.
Not a huge rush, I won't have a ML tag again 'til 2009, if I use the .58 it'll be in regular rifle season. (I do that sometimes just because I feel like it.)
Tom
NimrodRX,
When T/C was marketing the 1/20 .45 barrel their bullet offerings were the re-packaged Hornady 180 gr and 200 gr bullets.
I have range shot 5 T/C Encore/Omega 1/20 twist rifles. One Encore and 1 Omega shot sub MOA.. 3 other barrels would not group at all. Most shooters blamed the twist..yet for whatever reason T/C replaced more .45 barrels regardless of twist (1.20 vs 1/28).
My conclusion is that the .45 was more succeptable to pressure curves and barrel harmonics in relation to powder charges.
I spent time talking to Cecel Epps on this issue years ago. A T/C .45 barrel has to be internally "perfect" to shoot well.
T/C should have used smaller diameter bar stock on the .45 barrel instead of the standard .50 caliber bar stock. The .45 is over 1/2 pound heavier than the .50 caliber rifle.
Doc
Most interesting. Maybe I'm going to end up with a custom sooner than I thought. I was really counting on getting these to shoot. Maybe, I'll get lucky and mine will be "internally perfect." That never happens to me.
Without a doubt the pressure curve and steel come into play. I still think the fast twist is key though to shooting a .358 200-225gr bullet. I know my 30 twist 45s will shoot the lights out with a 200gr .40 bullet. Shove a .358 of any flavor down em and accuracy goes WAY south. Gotta be the twist. Look at what most of the .358 rifles (Rems, Wins, Whelens...) are at, 14-18 twist.
When Toby did some initial testing with the .357/195gr Dead Center he got mediocre groups at best out of his test rifel. Some flavor of a Knight 50 with a 28 twist I believe. After switching to a rifle with a 22 twist, groups shrank dramaticaly.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Cecil is ONLY shooting his bullets, all lead. Can't blame him really. They are a great product and he's a very knowledgable guy. However, the dynamics involved with a jacketed bullet are going to be VERY different. They're going to obturate much less with a stiff charge and will stand up to considerably more fps.
So let's assume that when these rifles show up, they're not cut worth a darned and the rifling sucks.
Given that they are five+ years old, but still NIB, what's the chances of TC standing behind them and rebarreling them for me to the 28 twist specs that they switched these rifles to?
remseven, do you personally have any experience shooting anything other than the DC (other .358 rifle bullets) out of a 45? If so, what twist worked for you. The only guy I know who is doing it with STELLER results is using the 20 twist TC Super XR 45 Black Diamond.
I will say that TC's warranty service is excellent and they stand behind their products generally even beyond reason. At least that was the case before S&W bought them - I would hope it still is.
Remseven outlined his difficulty with a G2 muzzy barrel, my G2 in .45 has been a delight (aside from kicking the snot out of me) from day one. Excellent barrel. And I see that as reflective of a lack of consistency of product that should most definitely be addressed. The very BEST warranty is one that is never needed.
Brief as per your questions, got to get hay equipment ready to go today.
NimroRx - I'm fairly certain what was wrong with my G2 1st barrel: A combination of things = 1/20 twist cut too deep. sabots not suitable for high pressure charges, and the lack of components available at the time to experiment with different combinations for .45cal. The bore seemed to be smooth enough and cleaned well.
As for the rifles you mentioned I would have no idea to their performance. I did buy 3 of the Wal-Mart blister pack deals for friends I knew who wanted the black diamond (not the XR version). This from three seasons ago. they were .50's and shoot sabots very well.
The G2 duplex I shot in the .50 cal. barrel, during the time frame Precision first offered them. The 195 shoots the best, and carries more energy. The first group with that barrel was one of those spooky things you occasionally get with a OTB product. I had to set a backer paper behind the firt target to prove to myself what I was seeing with three shot groups. This with a 2X8 at a 100. Don't recall ever checking twist, was no need too, but it is shallow rifling cut visually apparent. And the sabots for it were the experimental configuration that Del Ramsey formulated for some guys researching for a .45 and .50 sabot at high pressure, or flatter shooting powder charges. Believe Del found away to harden them for the higher pressure, or simply a plastic recipe that would work. I really have no idea how they perform in a .45 cal. fast twist.
As per your rifes, you might compare the rifling depth to your buddies barrel to see any difference. It is visbile to the naked eye if clean barrel. Would suggest if you think your barrels OK, to start loads in the neighborhood of your buddies for comparison.
The only projectile components available to try at the tme of the 1st G2 barrel, were limited to choice. It appeared mostly to me sabots were the critical point for failure of the system to be accurate, and the fast twist had a secondary bearing on the destruction of sabots.
Underclocked is right about the recoil. The .45 will knock the snot out of your with those "magnum" charges in the .45. Another reason I put the .50 on the G2. I have a Gonic barrel for it, and can not keep from splitting forearms. Even steel-bedded forearm, and still splits the wood portion.
Hope this made clear on your questions, and your project works out OK!!!
I have 2 50 cal T/C rifles with QLA - a Thunderhawk and an Omega. The Thunderhawk which I think has a 1-38" twist shoots lead conicals extremely well. The Omega shoots sabots extremely well but is not particularly good with lead conicals. I have been shooting 100 Gr charges of loose 777 ffg in both rifles.
I've had other T/C rifles and have never had one that wouldn't shoot something well whether it was a conical, sabot ot ball.