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So I know some guys swear the muzzle loaders made in Spain have problems and are unsafe. However, I remember reading this was about early ones produced in the 90's that didn't have proof marks on them. Can anyone provide any evidence of ones that do have the proof marks on the barrels being unsafe?

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Shooter error. Theres a scare tactics website thats anti cva, this website was started by the ambulance chasing lawyer who is also a close friend of randy wakeman. Wakeman is the main problem, hes untruthful and doesnt tell you the entire story.

Last year i shot a good deal over 5,000 shots through my CVA's with a big assortment of bullets, powders. I've also been shooting them since i was 14 years old. I am now 27 and so my experience with them has many years behind it.

This BS going on with Swampman is just to stir the pot and ignite tempers of those shooting CVA or Traditions brand muzzle loaders.

Most often, muzzle loaders and even centerfires explode due to misuse. That being an unapproved powder used in the muzzle loader, short started projectiles,mud, snow in the bore. One thing a lot of folks never think of is when they fire the gun, the primer goes POP! and then they scratch their head, re-primer and BOOM! Gun blows up. Why? Because when your muzzle loader misfired the first time, the pressure of the primer pushed the BULLET off the Powder Charge. Now that doesnt happen in a good deal of cases, the lucky only end up with a bulged barrel and a sick feeling in their gut.

Its easier to blame the builder of the gun, rather than man up and say, "Ok, i fudged up!"

The early model CVA Inlines made in 1995 and 1996 did have a problem with their breech plugs blowing out. Theres a recall on these models still to this day. I think they've recovered up to 96% of these guns.


In an email to Toby Bridges, i called him out on him talking down on spanish made guns and then getting sponsored by Traditions and praising them in his reviews.

His Response:
My only beef with CVA, and Traditions for that matter, has been that in the past they seemed to do nothing to insure American consumers that they had tested their
barrels to insure they had the strength and integrity to withstand some of the loads these companies have promoted using in those rifles. It is now widely known that
some of the popular three-pellet Triple Seven 150-grain charges with a saboted 300-grain bullet is pushing peak pressures well above the 30,000 p.s.i. level. Yet, the
barrels are proofed in the Spanish proof house to only about 10,000 p.s.i. - EACH BARREL IS PROOFED. And, that is more than I can say about American made muzzleloading
rifles.

CVA CEO's Reply:
Actually, each individual CVA barrel was not proof tested, nor were any others, be they Spanish or USA, but rather the design was tested to levels well in excess of magnum charge pressures � which is a 24,000. CVA barrel were marked with a proof of 10,000 psi because that was the Spanish minimum for muzzleloaders, but this standard was established back in the side lock days and was not relevant to magnum in-line. However, because the formula was on the barrel, Toby and others got into an uproar due to their misinterpretation of its meaning.

Toby:
I believe if either Traditions or CVA made an effort to test their barrels, here in the U.S.

CVA CEO:
Why should they be tested in the US? Are Berettas and Benellis tested in the US. The best guns in the world are NOT made in the USA, so why this insistence on doing proof tests in the USA, to pressures of 80,000 p.s.i. Why 80,000 psi? That is quadruple the pressure created by a magnum charge (24,000). Centerfire proof testing is only done at 30% above expected pressures. Why is he suggesting such a higher standard for muzzleloaders � unless he want them to be capable of sustaining smokeless powder pressures?
------------------------------------------

Not even Knight or TC Pressure test every single barrel.

Now to show you some examples of simple shooter error:
This person forgot to ram his ROUND BALL down on top of the powder charge.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

This custom made Hawken exploded at a Rendezvous when the shooter loaded the gun, got distracted, loaded again, pushing the load only halfway down the bore due to another distraction.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

When you want to know about a certain product, you ask those who actually shoot them.

The writer Randy Wakeman who constantly smears CVA and started all these tall tales and lies works for savage, Henry Ball " Smokeless savage muzzle loader inventor" son or brother in law " i forget which" was actually injured by one of the recalled CVA's. So this will certainly make randy some extra funds every time he sells a savage rather than CVA selling one.

Wakeman himself used to product test - review CVA Firearms. Now if these were as bad as Randy claims, would he take them into his hands, shoulder them, put his face inches away from a CVA barrel and shoot it to review the gun? Absolutely not!

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Originally Posted by bigblock455
Shooter error. Theres a scare tactics website thats anti cva, this website was started by the ambulance chasing lawyer who is also a close friend of randy wakeman. Wakeman is the main problem, hes untruthful and doesnt tell you the entire story.

Last year i shot a good deal over 5,000 shots through my CVA's with a big assortment of bullets, powders. I've also been shooting them since i was 14 years old. I am now 27 and so my experience with them has many years behind it.

This BS going on with Swampman is just to stir the pot and ignite tempers of those shooting CVA or Traditions brand muzzle loaders.

Most often, muzzle loaders and even centerfires explode due to misuse. That being an unapproved powder used in the muzzle loader, short started projectiles,mud, snow in the bore. One thing a lot of folks never think of is when they fire the gun, the primer goes POP! and then they scratch their head, re-primer and BOOM! Gun blows up. Why? Because when your muzzle loader misfired the first time, the pressure of the primer pushed the BULLET off the Powder Charge. Now that doesnt happen in a good deal of cases, the lucky only end up with a bulged barrel and a sick feeling in their gut.

Its easier to blame the builder of the gun, rather than man up and say, "Ok, i fudged up!"

The early model CVA Inlines made in 1995 and 1996 did have a problem with their breech plugs blowing out. Theres a recall on these models still to this day. I think they've recovered up to 96% of these guns.


In an email to Toby Bridges, i called him out on him talking down on spanish made guns and then getting sponsored by Traditions and praising them in his reviews.

His Response:
My only beef with CVA, and Traditions for that matter, has been that in the past they seemed to do nothing to insure American consumers that they had tested their
barrels to insure they had the strength and integrity to withstand some of the loads these companies have promoted using in those rifles. It is now widely known that
some of the popular three-pellet Triple Seven 150-grain charges with a saboted 300-grain bullet is pushing peak pressures well above the 30,000 p.s.i. level. Yet, the
barrels are proofed in the Spanish proof house to only about 10,000 p.s.i. - EACH BARREL IS PROOFED. And, that is more than I can say about American made muzzleloading
rifles.

CVA CEO's Reply:
Actually, each individual CVA barrel was not proof tested, nor were any others, be they Spanish or USA, but rather the design was tested to levels well in excess of magnum charge pressures � which is a 24,000. CVA barrel were marked with a proof of 10,000 psi because that was the Spanish minimum for muzzleloaders, but this standard was established back in the side lock days and was not relevant to magnum in-line. However, because the formula was on the barrel, Toby and others got into an uproar due to their misinterpretation of its meaning.

Toby:
I believe if either Traditions or CVA made an effort to test their barrels, here in the U.S.

CVA CEO:
Why should they be tested in the US? Are Berettas and Benellis tested in the US. The best guns in the world are NOT made in the USA, so why this insistence on doing proof tests in the USA, to pressures of 80,000 p.s.i. Why 80,000 psi? That is quadruple the pressure created by a magnum charge (24,000). Centerfire proof testing is only done at 30% above expected pressures. Why is he suggesting such a higher standard for muzzleloaders � unless he want them to be capable of sustaining smokeless powder pressures?
------------------------------------------

Not even Knight or TC Pressure test every single barrel.

Now to show you some examples of simple shooter error:
This person forgot to ram his ROUND BALL down on top of the powder charge.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

This custom made Hawken exploded at a Rendezvous when the shooter loaded the gun, got distracted, loaded again, pushing the load only halfway down the bore due to another distraction.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

When you want to know about a certain product, you ask those who actually shoot them.

The writer Randy Wakeman who constantly smears CVA and started all these tall tales and lies works for savage, Henry Ball " Smokeless savage muzzle loader inventor" son or brother in law " i forget which" was actually injured by one of the recalled CVA's. So this will certainly make randy some extra funds every time he sells a savage rather than CVA selling one.

Wakeman himself used to product test - review CVA Firearms. Now if these were as bad as Randy claims, would he take them into his hands, shoulder them, put his face inches away from a CVA barrel and shoot it to review the gun? Absolutely not!


Yet Swampy will defend the walker trigger design on the Remington 700 that has maimed and killed people.

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My my still kicking this around after all this time.First off there not mag. second you surely don't need a 150 gr of anything to kill a deer

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While I have no experience with the modern guns , when it comes to the traditional ones made by CVA ,Traditions , I would have to agree with the others . 99% of the time , issues can be traced directly to the shooter . Either through improper loading to improper maintenance


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30 years ago ol' Toby was a pretty fair writer....then he got greedy. Ain't been worth spit in 20-25 years.


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Never had a problem with a Spanish ML (but then again I never owned one). Did have a problem with a Spaniard named Juanita one time though. She about wore me out!


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Ah, Randy Wakeman and Toby Bridges. Haven't heard either of these words in a very l-o-n-g time. Nor have I read anything published by them in a respectful publication or we page. Those of us that have been around for a while will remember back when Toby was a decent writer, 25+ years or so ago, then as has been mentioned he got greedy. His beef with Savage began when Rob Coburn of Savage canceled his public relations contract with them for non-performance and conflict of interest. For several years, while he was on contract with them, Savage muzzleloaders were the best thing since sliced bread. He even sent me two of them to hunt with for a year so that I could write about them and be filmed using them on the show. The year Toby lost his contract with Savage I had dinner with Ron Coburn at the SHOT show and he mentioned that Toby was going to be cut loose. We did not discuss specifics but he offered me the opportunity to replace Toby but as I already had a overflowing plate I declined his offer. Within weeks of his termination Toby produced a video supposedly showing the tragic failure of not one but two Savage muzzleloaders. It hit the web and went viral. I called Toby to ask him about it and he explained to me, in what he considered to be a confidential conversation, of which whose confidentiality was all one sided with him, that he had staged the failures to insure the most horrific results possible. He stated that his goal was to do as much PR damage to Savage as he could because he was going to show those guys that they could not mess around with him. As a result of this conversation I was later called to testify in the court case filed against Toby by Savage. As good citizen of these United States I told the truth of what I knew when questioned by both sides. Sensing that he was going to lose the case Toby settled things out of court. This also allowed him to avoid the public relations mess this would have caused for him. So take whatever Toby says these days with a can, not a grain, of salt.
Randy Wakeman is a whole can of worms altogether. Randy began his career working in a machine shop, I believe it was in Illinois somewhere, as a machine operator and worked heavily with power transmission systems. He claims that this is where he learned all about metals. Suddenly, out of nowhere, back in the 1990's Randy made appearance on the muzzle loading scene, claiming to be an expert in the field. Most of the early stuff that Randy wrote appeared to be paraphrases of works done by other writers. Unfortunately, Randy's approach did not do much to endear him to those in the field. As a result Randy, much like Toby did later, took the approach that if will work with me then you are no good and I am going to do my best to make you look bad. Thus he began his career of slandering Spanish made muzzleloaders. His "testing evaluation" results were used as a basis for this campaign. And for a time he did develop a rather large following of the uninformed; to the point that he and Chuck Hawk formed the Chuckhawks.com web site to use as a medium for him to spread his version of the muzzle loading mantra. Fortunately, as time went on, the results of most of his negative evaluations so Spanish manufactured barrels was proven false and most people soon ignored him and moved on.


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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
... Did have a problem with a Spaniard named Juanita one time though. She about wore me out!


gnoahhh,

You know the rules. You can't just tell a story without details -- and in this case pictures would be important as well....


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I own and shoot a Traditon's "Shenandoah" flintlock along with a pair of CVA Hawken cap-locks... never had a whisper of a problem of ANY of 'em... and they shoot pretty darned straight with those bad ol' Spanish barrels.

Hasta la vista... ah... er... I mean "See ya"... grin


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The Walker trigger system never maimed or killed a singe person. It has never caused a single accidental discharge.

Current production spanish made muzzleloaders are no better.


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Randy Wakeman didn't know Jack about muzzleloaders until he picked the brains of a bunch of knowledgeable folks on Huntamerica forums back in the late 90's. Most of his vast knowledge came from other folks experience and that's a fact. I was there and remember all the stupid, neophyte questions he asked back then. The man is a liar and a fake, plain and simple.

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Randy doesn't work for Savage. Even before he started shooting Savage products he was trying to save lives and limbs.


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Originally Posted by Blackheart
Randy Wakeman didn't know Jack about muzzleloaders until he picked the brains of a bunch of knowledgeable folks on Huntamerica forums back in the late 90's. Most of his vast knowledge came from other folks experience and that's a fact. I was there and remember all the stupid, neophyte questions he asked back then. The man is a liar and a fake, plain and simple.


You are the liar....


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Originally Posted by Swampman700
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Randy Wakeman didn't know Jack about muzzleloaders until he picked the brains of a bunch of knowledgeable folks on Huntamerica forums back in the late 90's. Most of his vast knowledge came from other folks experience and that's a fact. I was there and remember all the stupid, neophyte questions he asked back then. The man is a liar and a fake, plain and simple.


You are the liar....
[bleep] you you worthless little retard. I was there and know of what I speak. Randy got a good deal of his firearm information from me and a bunch of other knowledgeable folks on the Huntamerica forums. I remember your stupid a$$ being over there years ago too. You were as highly regarded there as you are here.

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Originally Posted by Swampman700
The Walker trigger system never maimed or killed a singe person. It has never caused a single accidental discharge.
I just can't figure out whether you're really that STUPID or if you're just that big of a LIAR ?

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I was there too and you're a liar. A trigger never killed anyone.


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Maybe not but Remington has paid many millions of dollars in damages to those who have been killed or maimed by bullets accidentally discharged from their faulty rifles. Of course, you'd have to be capable of grasping how a trigger is SUPPOSED to work and how it's design can mechanically fail in order to understand exactly WHY Remington has paid and we BOTH KNOW you're not able. Retard.

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It's cheaper to settle out of court. A big corp. can't win against a sobbing mom who shot her kid in the head because she's stupid. There's not one thing wrong with the Walker trigger.


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Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by Swampman700
The Walker trigger system never maimed or killed a singe person. It has never caused a single accidental discharge.
I just can't figure out whether you're really that STUPID or if you're just that big of a LIAR ?


He is both Stupid and a big nasty Liar...his stupidity knows no bounds

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