https://archive.today/20200110151356/https://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/easier-stuff/342415/elephant-killing-probe-heats-up

I’m guessing no one has tried it with 22 short or long though.

That's surprising that a .22 would kill one

I'd hate to be the guy that pisses that elephant off armed only with a .22

Elephants are pests. Do what you have to with what ya got.

Capstick related this in one of his books. Apparently a shot right behind the foreleg, the main artery is very close to the skin (which is over 1" thick) will punch through and the ellie will eventually bleed out.

Fred Bear killed one with a cedar arrow from a recurve bow!

Reading this book now, pretty interesting, using 4 oz balls from a muzzle loader in 1872.

Frederick Courteney Selous: A Hunter's Wanderings in Africa: Being a Narrative of Nine Years Spent Amongst the Game of the Far Interior of South Africa

There was fellow, Bell, who killed them as a livelihood with a 6.5 x 54 Mannlicher...eventually graduating to the 7x57. And the .303 etc.

Hunt them with a binocular & let them be.

That's where I'm at.

Perhaps you should read a bit more on elephant conservation and destruction of habitat. Here's a hint; EVERY place where elephant hunting has been banned, populations crash due to poaching and destruction of habitat by too many elephants...

The environment also got devastated everywhere they got rid of the elephants.

Now I AM confused...shoot the elephants, don't shoot the elephants, shoot the Africans, don't shoot the Africans...I'ma just stay home an' shut up.

One shot from a M-16 was all it took to lose the bet. Pop and flop. Cost me a case of beer.

Depends on the game laws of the country you hunt in. Certainly a 375 or larger.

I would use either my .404 Jeffery or .460 Wby.

In my opinion a 40 caliber or larger is the best choice

THIS. Sorry I forgot to call back, JW, on my way home today, I'll touch base with you when I'm back in the office Monday

I thought that .460 was dedicated to NM jackwabbits….

Your .404J looks to me to be way too fancy to take hunting.

DF

Yes, the .460 is dedicated to NM jackwabbits, but it might graduate to something bigger.

The .404 Jeffery is never too fancy to take hunting.

Yes. Bell nailed elephants with some rather small calibers, and if memory is correct, he might have gone down to 0.25 in a couple instances. He, however, spent a couple days dissecting his first to learn the animal's makeup. Before cartridges, folks poured dozens of 4-bore cap and ball rounds into elephants, and probably half of them waltzed away.

James Sutherland used a .577 NE for his elephant hunting and IIRC he killed more elephants than W.D.M. Bell.

.475 Linebaugh, loaded up with 410 gr. hardcast WFNGC bullets at 1250 fps.....

I was gonna say 6.5 Creedmoor but then some guys on here might think you’re over gunned! 😁

If that .460 seems a bit anemic and for something bigger than NM Jackwabbits......

Yeah, if ya gonna go Fudd, go big....

DF

I am sure your right but wtf anyone would pay big money to shoot a cow elephant is beyond me. Hair off the tail for bracelets, feet for trash cans , meat for the locals and no ivory. Nope don't see it pics would be better. Mb

You guys don't understand! Use the smallest cartridge that'll do the job. This guy successfully used a 22 LR. Ha ha.

Perhaos, you feel that use enough for the job and using a little more than absolute necessary is OK?

I was only in Africa once -1998 in Cameroon. One village I stayed in had an issue with elephants. The elephants would at times decide to visit the village. They would smash much of the housing and leave. The villagers didn’t admit to anything that would have upset the elephants? Furthermore the villagers didn’t have a 22 handy.

(My experience with the big beasts is only what I have read.)

I get a kick out of how someone uses a way too small a cartridge to do something and then promote their accomplishment.

I will likely never go back to the dark continent. But if I do, I’ll be carrying something bigger than a 22.

I have a 375 H&H AI. That might be ‘overkill’ or it might be marginal. My cousin is organizing a trip for Cape. I want to go and I’m thinking it might work OK and it will likely be filled with TSX or something that might work ok.

Bugger, you make too much common sense. Why people want to shoot something with the smallest gun possible is a stupid stunt.

Thus the label, “stunt shooter”….

DF

Bugger, when I built mine in ‘90…….Africa was part of the driving force for the build. Sadly, it will never see Africa.

Good Luck with your hunt! memtb

Send South Dakota’s governor over there and the elephant problem is solved…

I believe most countries require a 375 or larger. I hope to hunt one in '26 and have a 416 Rigby sitting here waiting for some work

Maybe a little off track but.....

I have read in an old book, can't remember the title, that was an early historical account of the first permanent European settlers in 1652 AD (the Huguenots) and later, that more or less established the Cape Colony at the Cape of Good Hope, that became Cape Town. They were also mostly part of what made up the old "Voortrekkers" that spread out throughout and settled southern Africa. Anyway....

In one of the written accounts, they talked about being amazed at how the natives killed elephant with just spears and their little poison tipped arrows. It claimed the most common technique was for a small hunting party to find a lone "sleeping" animal and for one hunter to sneak up on it and spear/cut one of its hind leg Achilles tendons. It basically "anchored" the animal in place and allowed the rest of the hunting party to then approach close enough to use repeated spears into the vitals until it was brought down.

I can't say it's true or not but.......

She could probably turn that into a commercial.

Bet she can shoot.

DF

Reading Mahohboh by Ron Thomson, who killed more than 5000 elephants and was a smart, educated hunter and Rhodesian/Zimbabwean senior Parks ranger will dispel many of the harmful myths stated in this thread. In addition, Thomson was an expert who understood that elephant overpopulation, especially bulls, destroy habitat for all species and create sterile deserts.

Anyone who’s hunted elephants around Hwange or in most of Zim’s prime elephant country can attest to the mistaken notion of “letting nature take its course.” That was the type of stupidity which ruined Kenya’s hunting fields and which leads to the permanent decimation of much sub-Saharan African populated habitat through inefficient subsistence farming and domestic cattle, goat, etc raising by rural Africans.

Hunting elephants in sufficient numbers yields the most return for rural Africans and fulfills the maxim that, in Africa the only wild game that stays is that which pays. If there’s no tangible benefit to the rural population from sport hunting, the game will quickly and ruthlessly be wiped out.

Elephant hunting and control of the herds is absolutely necessary. Sport hunting returns the greatest benefit and reduces the numbers that need to be culled, if done correcltly. The current problem in Zimbabwe, Namibia, Botswana, especially in the national parks and reserves, is too many elephants, not too few.

Thank you! Everybody needs to pay attention to this post.

Who here has actually hunted elephant? I have, and am scheduled to do so once again in July in Zambia. Let's face it, no sport hunter these days has enough elephant kills under his belt to to an expert, especially comparing to experience that hunters/poachers and game control officers had a century ago. (or half a century ago in some cases)

That said, listen to the PH's who guide hunter for elephant. Universally, they rather a client shoot a .375 well, and place the bullet where it belongs than a .458 that they are shy of. Recoil isn't for everyone.

Apparently it was something of a stunt. He knew where the artery was, and tried it once just to see, and did not further recommend it. That's my understanding of the story.

Hatari,

While you do your part in Zambia this Summer/Winter, I’ll be back in Zimbabwe. Elephant hunting is necessary for the survival of the species. For the dedicated sports hunter, it’s the pinnacle of hunting dangerous game. It’s a chess game when hunting the herds and IMHO, African hunting at its best.

Returning with the same expert PH and his team provides an opportunity to hunt with professionals who know and respect the elephants. As long as I can walk on the tracks and shoot an adequate caliber DGR, I’ll keep going back.

BTW, after reading and watching many videos on shot placement on elephants, Thomson’s photos and description illustrating and explaining the anatomy of the frontal brain shot is the best. It shows that he was clearly an expert on elephant hunting and provides the practical explanation which is quite useful in the field, when the action is close and needs to be decisive. He makes it clear that this is not the preferred shot for the inexperienced. But should it become necessary, especially in a close encounter, the practical use of external anatomical landmarks as the elephant’s head position changes is the best I’ve seen.

Cheers!

If that's your choice good on you. I would love to hunt them or anything else in Africa, but then I love to hunt North American game too.

If properly backed up I would use my 9.3x62 with a well made solid.

I agree with those who say that elephant populations need to be controlled. I've hunted in Zimbabwe and Mozambique in areas where there were quite a few elephants and I've seen the damage they can do to their environment. In the old days elephants could move when they had exhausted an area, but with much higher human populations currently, that option is mostly gone. As a result populations need to be controlled.

I've never hunted elephants, but based on what I've seen, it seems like the most exciting DG hunting one can do.

👍 on all that. I’ve talked to a number of ex Rhodesians that knew Thompson and give him highest praise.

I knew a fellow who some 40 plus years ago was hunting there and had taken along a guy to film it all. Great basic movies. They were hunting near a river for what I don’t recall when a bull elephant showed up heading for that river. In the film the guide is whispering to hit the ear hole, the elephant must not make the river, and the hunter did just that with the 7mag he had in hand. That elephant was dead before the next step. I have no clue what bullet.

Obviously not the preferred weapon but in that circumstance and at that angle it worked. If memory serves less than 100 yards.

Osky

Bell started out with the .303, then went to the 6.5x54 and 7x57--and the only reason he quit using the 6.5x54 M-S was the Austrian ammo became unreliable.

Yes, Sutherland reportedly killed more elephants than Bell. But Sutherland also used the .318 Westley-Richards quite a bit for his elephant hunting in more open country. He did not ONLY use the .577....

I just want to kill one.....a hundred pounder😜

$’s get in the way. I figure if I go I will have to prioritize and the one I might be able to swing is a Cape. Oh for the bank roll for the big 5.

this is a pretty cool thread. I never say much in here because I've never been to Africa and I'll probably never get to go.

but I'll just say this I've had a dispatch lots of wild cows that weren't supposed to be wild the domestic kind. as most people know the correct shot with a 22 rimfire will drop a cow. but you take an old cow that actually wants to kill you I mean wants to kill you you want to have something much larger in your hands. I can only imagine what a actual pissed off death raged elephant would be like...

I don't think anyone questions whether or not a .577 NE can kill an elephant.

As JB posted lots of smaller rounds have done well and the thread is about the minimum round.

I would love to poke a big bull up close in the noggin with a 6.5mm Creedmoor and a good 140gr mono or steel jacket flat point just to see what happens.

Burns,

You might want some back up. RIO7

No one has to hunt them. BUT they do need to be managed in some form or fashion. No hunting at all or harvest in some form simply will not work out. Never has. Never will.

No I don't.

Which makes it impossible.

Bell whacked them by the 100s with the little version of 6.5mm with no backup.

I just want one bull with out any backup but without becoming an international criminal it's not going to happen.

I thought I read it was because he found the 318 gave more immediate effect.

First time I hunted for a bull, I had a 404-375 Ruger - equivalent ballistics to a modern 404J load of 400 grain solid at 2400 fps. That hunt resulted in no shot as the bulls we saw, except one halfway across the river into Botswana with a broken tusk - were avg Zim 30+ pounders. After having been close to several small bull bands, it became clear that, back up or not by my PH, a larger caliber DGR was a more prudent option.

Unlike the hunters and poachers of the 1880s, today’s elephants are most commonly found, on final approach, in varyingly thick concealment. Not in the kind of open savannah grasslands that naive elephants were shot back then. From engagement at close range to withdrawal or shot, seconds count went elephants can turn and charge and need to be stopped. Bigger monolithic solid bullets, larger calibers, and more power, IMHE, are all better. There’s no sniping from concealment if one or more of the bulls or cows decide to have a go at the hunters, before or after the shot.

As a result, the next 2 hunts were done with a 500 NE 3” DR - enough gun from any angle.

IMHO, the large 400s - 416s, 404s - are adequate minimums. Having an expert PH for back up is reassuring, should it be needed, but at close quarters, all armed participants need to be relied on to shoot the elephant indicated and not shoot each other. You can’t always depend on the PH as the sole back up because angles vary significantly at close range in a fluid situation, as both eles and hunters may have to move about to get angles and shots in, rapidly, safely and accurately. Several elephants coming in at once - bulls or cows - is a scenario better avoided but not always possible. Avoidance and de-escalation are preferred and routinely practiced, but reliable large caliber DGRs are still the last line.

Well loaded 45 caliber DGRs, IMHO, used by a well practiced and properly PH-backed up hunter - infrequently needed - are ideal. Most of us have much greater experience with ‘affordable’ bolt actions, components and ammo are readily available for practice, and accuracy out to 50 yds and 100% reliability at speed trumps sniper-style groups.

I know the 404J works wonderfully, but the modern loads in the 458 WM, 460 G&A class provide straight line pass through penetration from most angles and deliver a definitive blow, while keeping recoil to a level that allows reasonably rapid, controlled follow ups.

Others’ experience may certainly differ, but this is my minimum-cartridge/caliber conclusion based on my own thin slice of experience.

Good post.

You have more experience than I do but Bell had quite a bit more than either of us.

He found the little 6.5mm to have enough penatration so I am differing to his much greater experience that the 6.5mm Creedmoor with good solids will stop and kill elephants if shot well.

I don't have much of a want to just shoot an elephant but doing it like Bell did has an appeal. Such a thing is not legally possible in todays world.

What did you use?

I've read a LOT of Bell's writing, and have never come across that.

Instead the general trend I've read is that he started using different cartridges (including the .318) due to problems with ammo, either functional or being able to buy it. He stated more than once, even in his later writings, that his all-time favorite rifle was his customized 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer (known to the British as the .256).

But the Austrian ammo often wasn't satisfactory. He not only had problems with cases splitting on firing, but the bullets weren't crimped in the case necks, and sometimes were pretty loose. There was one incident where he had a bullet stick in the chamber throat after he extracted the case.

He switched to the 7x57 because the German ammo he preferred was higher quality--and he liked that cartridge a lot as well. But eventually a problem with obtaining ammo also occurred with it, due to an "incident" known today as World War One. He started using the .318 when German ammo became almost impossible to obtain, but British .318 ammo was easy to find. But he also used the .303 British some after he started using the .318, as he did when starting to hunt in Africa--and probably because it was easy to get. And like the .318 it was available with appropriate "solids."

If you can carry it, it’s too small…😳😁

Bell does comment on the more “noticeable” effect of the 318 and the occasional inexplicable “misses” or off “off course” of the 256 solids that he attributed to bending inside the head. The “misses” stopped with the excellent ammo and the 7x57.
All of this is nothing that we don’t think today; placement is everything and you need a bullet capable of getting there.
F01

I've hunted elephant twice. The first time was during a buffalo hunt in the Save when we encountered the tracks of a wounded young bull who needed to be put down. We snuck into a large her of cows and calves and it was the most exciting yet scariest experience I've ever had in the field. My .375 definitely felt tiny as I watched cows bend over fully-grown palms to shake the nuts free. We never found the bull but I was bitten by the bug and would come back if it broke me.

11 years later I was in the Zambezi Valley, this time on a dedicated elephant and buffalo hunt. I carried a Krieghoff 450-400 double with Woodleigh solids. I killed a great buffalo after an incredible stalk on day three but we struggled on elephant, mainly due to shifting winds and bad luck. On day 12 we were charged by an old bull who was suffering from multiple infected shotgun wounds-- it happened FAST. I killed him with a frontal brain shot at 17 steps. In my sample of one, the 450-400 was plenty of gun-- especially since I shoot that rifle well. One bull doesn't make me an expert, by any means. I'll probably never hunt elephant again but I will chase buffalo as time and budgets allow so the 450-400 chambering is ideal for my needs. For a dedicated elephant rifle I'm sure that a larger chambering would make sense on paper but only if the user was comfortable shooting it.

AGW,

for my own education, I went back and read Ron Thomson’s chapter (Part 1, Rifles, calibers, and bullets) in the First Edition Mahohboh wherein his assessment of the 460 Wby appears (p. 95j, which paragraph I’ll quote verbatim, “The .460 Weatherby Magnum, for example, is a magnificent weapon for hunting elephant. The bullet does not break up, it has superb penetration and it has super knock down power. One would think, therefore, that even a novice would feel comfortable with such a weapon - even if he were hunting elephant in the thickest of thick brush. But the man may become shy of the .460’s (sic) very heavy recoil.”

I also note that the opening page of this chapter states the cartridges Thomson used on elephant. The “.460 Weatherby” is on the list, so this opinion
/assessment is based on his own experience. I assume Thomson used the original factory loadings available in the early and mid 1960’s which I believe were loaded to MV potential, even though the bullets may not have been as reliable as today’s monolithic solids or excellent thick steel jacketed bonded solids, still seem to have functioned as intended.

I interpret this assessment as the description of a very effective elephant cartridge, in the hands of a hunter very familiar with full power loads in the 460 Wby and
well accustomed to its considerable recoil. As in most things balancing efficacy, utility for the intended purpose and user proficiency provides the most suitable answer IMHO.

Good discussion. I know that I'll likely never spend Safari money for a Cape B, Big Cats or Elephant ect. but I enjoy reading about your experiences.

Honestly when I saw the latest thread "Elephant Cartridge" on the main page my first thought was....

Stacey Abrams discussion?

Yep, another reason he was happier with the 7x57!

But his comment on the .318 occurred after he started using it, and as I noted above the probable reason for his switch to the .318 was due to ammo availability.

Might also note that when he "retired" with his wife to his estate in Scotland, he became very fond of the .220 Swift and neck shots for killing red stags....

She’s a Ghettopotamus. No less than a 500 grain solid required.😉

Yes. Bell said once he went to the .318 WR the inexplicable misses went away

Several people have killed Elephant with the 45-70. I've read the accounts

A friend of mine killed an elephant with a 45-70 in a Contender

Which bullet?

I have no idea. JD Jones handed him the Contender and said "use this it will work" I don't think my friend knew which bullet. He shot the elephant through the heart ❤️