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But this is going to far.

LAKEVILLE, Minn. - A Lakeville man says he feels violated after two police officers woke him up at 3 a.m. to tell him his door was unlocked.

Their surprise visit was part of a public service campaign to remind residents to secure their homes to prevent thefts. Usually, officers just leave notices on doors.

But they went further in Troy Molde's case on Thursday. Police entered the house where four children under 7 were having a sleepover, and then went upstairs to Molde's bedroom.

The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.

He says the kids inside � Molde's two sons and two nephews � were afraid to wake their dad, so the officers went upstairs.
Originally Posted by Violator22
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

So in Minnesota I can't leave my garage door open, if I want... or leave the TV on, or put my truck keys anywhere I decide I want to... or leave the house door open????

God save us from the Nanny State!!!! mad

Penny
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why was it going too far? What would folks be saying if the cops had just ignored it and moved on and something tragic was occurring or about to occur?

If I was a trained officer, I'd be on alert,as well!
They probably should have announced themselves better, I can tell ya, I would have come up with something in my hand. Plus, I don't wake well to peopkle shaking me awake, the wife stands across the room and wakes me up, I tend to come up swinging. Les
Yea, I think that is a little too far. Why didn't they just shut the door for him? I have left mine open a couple of times and one time some kids took some good beer I had just brought back from Germany! mad I hope they enjoyed it

RH
He says the kids inside � Molde's two sons and two nephews � were afraid to wake their dad, so the officers went upstairs.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Kids knew better than to wake up dad after he stumbles home hammered and passes out.
Originally Posted by Violator22
I can tell ya, I would have come up with something in my hand.

Yah... Barak would have also. Please don't walk into our bedroom in the middle of the night for any reason... eek

Penny

Originally Posted by Violator22
...The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.


Hell, yeah!

If I'd been one of the officers, I'd have been expecting pools of blood inside.

- Tom
Originally Posted by isaac
He says the kids inside � Molde's two sons and two nephews � were afraid to wake their dad, so the officers went upstairs.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Kids knew better than to wake up dad after he stumbles home hammered and passes out.


+1

- Tom
Not being familiar with Lakeville, MN., I hesitate to say that they "went to far". There have been several instances in my career where serial murderers were entering unsecured residences at night in particular parts of the city and every effort was made to capture them and protect the citizens. I suspect however, that this PD just doesn't have enough to do, are over-zealous and probably over-staffed, a luxury very few cities have.
Heck, when I lived up in Divide, Teller County Sheriff's dept shut my door for me, the wife was in Texas and I had a bit too much to drink and left the backdoor open, Lucky I didn't wake up with yotes in the house. The deputy left a note and card on my car to give him a call when I read it. Les
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Not being familiar with Lakeville, MN., I hesitate to say that they "went to far". There have been several instances in my career where serial murderers were entering unsecured residences at night in particular parts of the city and every effort was made to capture them and protect the citizens. I suspect however, that this PD just doesn't have enough to do, are over-zealous and probably over-staffed, a luxury very few cities have.


Yep, I think it's all location dependant. Though, at my house, my lab would keep them from making entry, and his bark would wake me.

Yesterday morning I was awakened by my dog. I thought it was thunder outside. He has this incredibly low growl that he can stretch out for a long time. He was downstairs in at the front door and I could literally feel the growl. Some varmint had just crossed the yard, as was evidenced by the tidy fresh pile of turds just off the front porch. Since it appeared to have berry seads I ruled out dog or cat, and he would have barked at either of those. He's rare to bark or growl, but he sounds like he means business when he does.
Dang, that's only one town over from me. Better keep my Garage locked shocked
I suppose it depends on the particular location, and the policies and priorities of the PD. I live in a fairly safe area, and have left the garage door open on occasion. The police patrol won't bother to stop and ring the door bell if they see it, but they will stop and put a ticket on a car in the driveway if the rear bumper overhangs the sidewalk by a hair. Not to deny the responsibility of the homeowner, but it would seem to be a reasonable crime prevention measure.

I had words with the chief about this paradox, but don't know if the policy ever changed.

Paul

Not getting an answer at 3 am is unusual? WTF?

Too far. I could see maybe at noon but 3 am I wouldn't expect an answer. I guess if the TV is right in front of the window and they could tell maybe but I doubt it was like that. I fall asleep infront of the TV about 6 nights out of 7, keys in the truck (take it please!)

No one answering a knock at 3am is "suspicious" - slippery slope my friends....
Left my garage door open overnite on several ocassions. Only thing I worry about is finding a skunk in there eating dogfood some morning. Only had the local police call once in the middle of the night to tell me my neighbors garage door was open and would I go close it because he was gone! I said heck no, close it yourself!
Originally Posted by isaac
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why was it going too far? What would folks be saying if the cops had just ignored it and moved on and something tragic was occurring or about to occur?

If I was a trained officer, I'd be on alert,as well!


Basically because a person does not have the right to go into someone's house unless invited. Being a police officer does not exempt one from curtesy, respect, and the law.
There is no law which precludes a officer from entering a resdience where they might believe something dangerous might be occurring, including the over-all safety of those inside.Many things at this residence could have given the officers concern and reason to suspect there could be a problem inside.

We'll just have to disagree as to this and the fact I don't believe the officers were rejecting curtesy or respect, at all.

Really...where would you be if they just blew it off and a serious crime or life-threatening problem had befallen these family members?
Originally Posted by .280Rem
Though, at my house, my lab would keep them from making entry, and his bark would wake me.


At my house the guard lab would mix the intruder a cocktail and point out the good silver blush

Originally Posted by isaac
There is no law which precludes a officer from entering a resdience where they might believe something dangerous might be occurring, including the over-all safety of those inside.Many things at this residence could have given the officers concern and reason to suspect there could be a problem inside.

We'll just have to disagree as to this and the fact I don't believe the officers were rejecting curtesy or respect, at all.

Really...where would you be if they just blew it off and a serious crime or life-threatening problem had befallen these family members?


A person doesn't have the right to go into someone else's home uninvited. If you can't see that, there really isn't much point in discussing it.
Um Issac - usually I am on your side but according to what's presented - no one answered a knock at the door at 3am. Hardly suspicious.

As to the door being open and keys in the truck - again, don't buy it as suspicious. If his neighbors didn't find it weird enough to call the cops then why is it so unfathomable that someone would leave the door open or the keys in the truck as normal- it's Minnesota not Compton.
I wonder if the kids didn't open the door and let the officer in. Remember they didn't want to wake up dad. I would make sure my kids knew better than to open a door to anyone at night. To me that is a scarier thought than the officer actually coming in because he wasn't heard at the door.

The police came to Les's while we were visiting and knocked and told him his garage door was open and that there had been a break-in a couple of streets over. Sounded like a good cop to me.

Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Originally Posted by isaac
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why was it going too far? What would folks be saying if the cops had just ignored it and moved on and something tragic was occurring or about to occur?

If I was a trained officer, I'd be on alert,as well!


Basically because a person does not have the right to go into someone's house unless invited. Being a police officer does not exempt one from curtesy, respect, and the law.


Joe:

If the officers had minded their own business, went away and the next day found out there had been a couple of murdered people inside, there would have been hell to pay.

Been a few folks around here who've been murdered by someone who entered the house early in the evening through an unlocked door.

Now, as to a man's constitutional right to go to bed after leaving his front door ajar and his garage door wide open, I'll concede the point.

On the other hand, he had four children sleeping in that wide open house at 3:00 am. That kind of creeps me out.

- Tom
Maybe it's a reginal thing. Around here, if lights are on, TV on, garage and house door open and noone answers a knock, it's more than suspicious.
wow I guess it's just the difference in how/where you are raised.


raised on a farm, dogs would always let you know if someone was coming.


funny how even though I'm a "suburbanite" now (yechhh) I've still got a long driveway, well 1/10 of a mile, leave my house unlocked most of the time and sometimes leave the garage door open (though not often in winter, grin)

course 3 dogs make it all a moot point, but I don't like surprises, wouldn't appreciate anyone just entering my house uninvited.
So the cops go on and there are dead bodies laying all over the floor. What exactly could the cops do for someone already dead?
I've never had anybody fail to respond to me "knocking" regardless of the time (and I work mostly mids). Most LEOs that I know "knock" with the butt end of a maglight. As someone here once said "it never don't not work".

George
Think in terms of them not being dead or harmed but in 10 minutes that would all be changed.
Investigate it. The fear is that if they just drove by and it was later found out that they were driving by when the act was occurring, there's going to be a lawsuit.

George

Originally Posted by NH K9
Investigate it. The fear is that if they just drove by and it was later found out that they were driving by when the act was occurring, there's going to be a lawsuit.

George


I find it difficult to believe Teal was being serious.

Could be wrong, though.

- Tom
Yeah, I should have thrown a smile after the investigate it sentence. Dry humor doesn't translate well via the typed word.

George
I was about the fact people were concerned there might be dead people there. Unless you can raise the dead - they aren't missing much.

I didn't see anything to make me believe something was going on right that second though... 3am is usually pretty quiet and I would think an officer could hear something if there was cause for alarm.

Whatever.

Just know that if we keep loosening our definition of "suspicious" to allowing people to enter your home (think of the children! Oh wont someone think of the children!) then why bother to have the 4th amendment at all.
This isn't a probable cause to search issue, Teal.

It's a cop(s) making sure a family is OK. A safety issue. Now, if the cops uncovered a room full of cocaine and made an arrest, I'd have no trouble with filing a suppression motion.

Let's just instill a F 'em" attitude into the cops mind-set so they don't go through the trouble.

Poor guys. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
And cops drive by crimes all the time. Really think that no crime has been committed with a cop driving by?

Think of the people who are over the legal limit for DUI and pass a cop sitting on the side of the road. Crime committed and officer present, maybe later something happens - no one sued the cop for watching the car drive by.
Originally Posted by isaac
This isn't a probable cause to search issue, Teal.

It's a cop(s) making sure a family is OK.


How much you want to bet if there was say an "unlicensed" gun on the nightstand when they checked his bedroom there wouldn't have been a citation?

I am not going to get into this - I am just saying that if an officer went into my house based on the keys being in the ignition of my truck and the door open - it would bother me and I would talk to someone about it for sure. Sue? Nope but it would bother me. My opinion - didn't say anyone else had to have it.
Originally Posted by teal
And cops drive by crimes all the time. Really think that no crime has been committed with a cop driving by?

Think of the people who are over the legal limit for DUI and pass a cop sitting on the side of the road. Crime committed and officer present, maybe later something happens - no one sued the cop for watching the car drive by.


And if the cops drove by the open garage door/house without stopping I would agree with you. Once they checked the house and found it open, different story. In your example above, if the cop stopped the car for a violation, made note of the intoxication, and then left there would be issues if an accident occurred after the fact.

George
You can't be serious. Comparing dead bodies to speeders is "out there".
Because some may have missed it.

I am not going to get into this - I am just saying that if an officer went into my house based on the keys being in the ignition of my truck and the door open - it would bother me and I would talk to someone about it for sure. Sue? Nope but it would bother me. My opinion - didn't say anyone else had to have it.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Not being familiar with Lakeville, MN., I hesitate to say that they "went to far". There have been several instances in my career where serial murderers were entering unsecured residences at night in particular parts of the city and every effort was made to capture them and protect the citizens. I suspect however, that this PD just doesn't have enough to do, are over-zealous and probably over-staffed, a luxury very few cities have.

I agree with you.

The deciding factor here is that they didn't point their guns at him and arrest him...although one speculates that they probably would have--and perhaps more--if he'd heard the commotion downstairs, armed himself, and ambushed them.

What they did was stupid and likely to get their heads blown off if they keep doing it; but I don't think it was criminal, unless he wants to try charging them with trespassing. Given that they were just trying to make sure everything was okay, though, I doubt he'd be able to make a trespassing charge stick.
Originally Posted by teal
Because some may have missed it.

I am not going to get into this - I am just saying that if an officer went into my house based on the keys being in the ignition of my truck and the door open - it would bother me and I would talk to someone about it for sure. Sue? Nope but it would bother me. My opinion - didn't say anyone else had to have it.


Me too. But if you find a car with the keys in it in the city I work in, it's because whowever STOLE it didn'd take them when they bailed. If a door is open at night, it is whore house or has been burglarized.
Is it illegal to leave your garage door open?
In the UP it is considered rude to take your keys out of the car. Someone may have to move it. smile
Originally Posted by isaac
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why was it going too far? What would folks be saying if the cops had just ignored it and moved on and something tragic was occurring or about to occur?

If I was a trained officer, I'd be on alert,as well!
This story has generated TONS of debate on the talk radio stations in the area.. On one hand, I sympathize with the cops.. On the other hand, I think they were VERY lucky that the homeowner didn't wake up before they got to his room and when they got in the doorway they weren't met with a magazine full of .45ACP..

My question is; ok so they found this wierd situation.. Are you telling me the cops can't obtain a phone number and try THAT first?? Other options?

I know that in the Shot Paul, Murderapolis area that there's rampant crime, break-ins, rapes/muggings, armed robberies; it's in the news and printed media on a daily basis.. I can understand any LEO's concern in that environment.. But IMHO those cops placed themselves in tremendous danger with their actions..

Nope. It's not illegal to the victim of a crime either.
Originally Posted by Bart185
Is it illegal to leave your garage door open?


In liberal MN, it soon will be.. It's already illegal to idle your car engine for more than 3 minutes in MPLS.. (or was is St. Paul???) This moronic legislation was just passed recently.. Can't let your car idle and warm up in the winter either: Illegal..

MN is the CA of the midwest... With TAX HELL WISCONSIN right behind..
Is it me or is the "Public Safety" excuse that Law enforcement uses these days a bit overused?
"My question is; ok so they found this wierd situation.. Are you telling me the cops can't obtain a phone number and try THAT first?? Other options?"

While phone when your'e already talking to the kids?


"But IMHO those cops placed themselves in tremendous danger with their actions.. "

Maybe, maybe not. The story is not exactly coming from reliable sources.


If it were only your children home and those facts confronted a cop, would you wish for them to walk away??
Originally Posted by Bart185
Is it me or is the "Public Safety" excuse that Law enforcement uses these days a bit overused?


Hell yeah! Think about how easy my job would be if I didn't have to protect the public!
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Originally Posted by isaac
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why was it going too far? What would folks be saying if the cops had just ignored it and moved on and something tragic was occurring or about to occur?

If I was a trained officer, I'd be on alert,as well!


Basically because a person does not have the right to go into someone's house unless invited. Being a police officer does not exempt one from curtesy, respect, and the law.


Say this guy had been home alone, was awakened by the knocks, but was afraid to answer them being that knocks at 3am are unusual, armed himself and positioned himself to see the door, and shot "the intruders" as they entered? What then?
Originally Posted by .280Rem
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Originally Posted by isaac
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why was it going too far? What would folks be saying if the cops had just ignored it and moved on and something tragic was occurring or about to occur?

If I was a trained officer, I'd be on alert,as well!


Basically because a person does not have the right to go into someone's house unless invited. Being a police officer does not exempt one from curtesy, respect, and the law.


Say this guy had been home alone, was awakened by the knocks, but was afraid to answer them being that knocks at 3am are unusual, armed himself and positioned himself to see the door, and shot "the intruders" as they entered? What then?


Then you'd have a tragedy. Now all you have is an embarrassed homeowner and dumb looking cops.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Originally Posted by .280Rem
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Originally Posted by isaac
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why was it going too far? What would folks be saying if the cops had just ignored it and moved on and something tragic was occurring or about to occur?

If I was a trained officer, I'd be on alert,as well!


Basically because a person does not have the right to go into someone's house unless invited. Being a police officer does not exempt one from curtesy, respect, and the law.


Say this guy had been home alone, was awakened by the knocks, but was afraid to answer them being that knocks at 3am are unusual, armed himself and positioned himself to see the door, and shot "the intruders" as they entered? What then?


Then you'd have a tragedy. Now all you have is an embarrassed homeowner and dumb looking cops.


Wouldn't you agree, that if this is their policy, that it's ripe for either a cop to get shot, or an innocnent homeowner to get shot by police because of the homeowner thinking he's being burglarized and arming himself. Not to mention the problems they'll have when they walk in to someone's home without PC or a warrant and find a large stash of drugs, or, murder scene with the suspect still there.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Originally Posted by .280Rem
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Originally Posted by isaac
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why was it going too far? What would folks be saying if the cops had just ignored it and moved on and something tragic was occurring or about to occur?

If I was a trained officer, I'd be on alert,as well!


Basically because a person does not have the right to go into someone's house unless invited. Being a police officer does not exempt one from curtesy, respect, and the law.


Say this guy had been home alone, was awakened by the knocks, but was afraid to answer them being that knocks at 3am are unusual, armed himself and positioned himself to see the door, and shot "the intruders" as they entered? What then?


Then you'd have a tragedy. Now all you have is an embarrassed homeowner and dumb looking cops.


No, you would have two DEAD dumb cops and a completely justified homeowner who would be charged with first degree murder. Who, even if he beat the rap, would like have to spend thousands upon thousands in legal fees.

You would have orphans, widows, and traumatized kids just because a couple of idiots thought that they could enter someone's home in the middle of the night without being invited.
Yes. But I see nothing to suggest is a department policy. It appears to be a judgement call, a risky one at that.
So Joe, the death of dumb people can't be tragic?
Originally Posted by .280Rem
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Originally Posted by isaac
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why was it going too far? What would folks be saying if the cops had just ignored it and moved on and something tragic was occurring or about to occur?

If I was a trained officer, I'd be on alert,as well!


Basically because a person does not have the right to go into someone's house unless invited. Being a police officer does not exempt one from curtesy, respect, and the law.


Say this guy had been home alone, was awakened by the knocks, but was afraid to answer them being that knocks at 3am are unusual, armed himself and positioned himself to see the door, and shot "the intruders" as they entered? What then?



He would have been charges with first degree murder if he survived the confrontation.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Yes. But I see nothing to suggest is a department policy. It appears to be a judgement call, a risky one at that.


Even worse if there are cops out there that need that little to go on to enter a home without a warrant at 3am, and think it's ok. I can see (in some neighborhoods) where the circumstances could give rise to suspicion, but that aint enough. I'd like to know more about this town/city demographics and crime stats.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
So Joe, the death of dumb people can't be tragic?


Tragic for their families and the homeowner, but such utter and extreme foolishness mitigates against much sympathy.
my motion detectors and 4 dashounds would have given me a good indication that the cops were getting near the house well before they knocked even at 3 am, but personally Id be THANKFUL the cops told me the garage was left open, if it was the case......but then thats never going to happen due to the alarms systems won,t allow any doors or windows or motion alarms to be open or triggered when the systems set for the night, but having them come into the house is very unlikely unless I asked them as IM always the one answering the door 24/7/365.25
and Id be up looking around seconds after the dashounds started going totally nuts whiuch they do the second anyone hits the driveway
Originally Posted by .280Rem
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Yes. But I see nothing to suggest is a department policy. It appears to be a judgement call, a risky one at that.


Even worse if there are cops out there that need that little to go on to enter a home without a warrant at 3am, and think it's ok. I can see (in some neighborhoods) where the circumstances could give rise to suspicion, but that aint enough. I'd like to know more about this town/city demographics and crime stats.


That's the first thing I looked at before making my first post.

http://www.city-data.com/city/Lakeville-Minnesota.html
Lived in upstate NY for a couple of years. Woke up one night to police calling from downstairs. They were on patrol in the middle of the night and noticed our front door was wide open. My wife, daughter, and I were all asleep upstairs. I appreciated them waking me, checking on us, and checking the house for potential intruders.
That's a yes or no question, counselor.
Okay, no. In Texas it is understood that if you enter the home of someone univited at 3:00 a.m., you deserve to get shot.
The cops should have just driven on by...as was said earlier they are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I wouldn't be a cop for anything in the world. If these threads are any indication, cops have never done anything right in the history of law enforcement.

Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Okay, no. In Texas it is understood that if you enter the home of someone univited at 3:00 a.m., you deserve to get shot.


This is a bona fide no-[bleep]!!!!!!
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Okay, no. In Texas it is understood that if you enter the home of someone univited at 3:00 a.m., you deserve to get shot.


Wrong. In Texas it is understood that if you enter the home of someone univited at 3:00 a.m., you SHOULD EXPECT to get shot.
I think "DESERVED" is a better word...
You should expect it because you would deserve it.
Aren't these the same arguments that were used about tasers, but reversed?
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Originally Posted by .280Rem
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Yes. But I see nothing to suggest is a department policy. It appears to be a judgement call, a risky one at that.


Even worse if there are cops out there that need that little to go on to enter a home without a warrant at 3am, and think it's ok. I can see (in some neighborhoods) where the circumstances could give rise to suspicion, but that aint enough. I'd like to know more about this town/city demographics and crime stats.


That's the first thing I looked at before making my first post.

http://www.city-data.com/city/Lakeville-Minnesota.html


Appears to be a rather suburban type town. Somewhat affluent. Low crime rate. Likely a PD with well paid officers and lots of time on their hands.

Although it all means something...fact is high crime area or low crime area...it doesn't change a whole lot IMO. This is just one of those good intentioned things that, luckily in this case, didn't go horribly bad. And it's one that has a high potential to do so. If they don't have any such policy, they better think about writing one against doing what these officers did.
Sounds like one of those places where most of the cops have no experience...and never get any.
It is a regional thing. In that part of the world, those cops never even considered the possibility of getting shot in a white affluent suburban house. Where I live, that is exactly the kind of house in which you are most likely to get shot.
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Originally Posted by isaac
There is no law which precludes a officer from entering a resdience where they might believe something dangerous might be occurring, including the over-all safety of those inside.Many things at this residence could have given the officers concern and reason to suspect there could be a problem inside.

We'll just have to disagree as to this and the fact I don't believe the officers were rejecting curtesy or respect, at all.

Really...where would you be if they just blew it off and a serious crime or life-threatening problem had befallen these family members?


A person doesn't have the right to go into someone else's home uninvited. If you can't see that, there really isn't much point in discussing it.


SPOT-ON!

Too bad ALL INTRUDERS can't be shot.
What ever the reason, I'll bet this guy will think twice about leaving the garage door open again. With this in mind I guess the LEO's got their message across. Mission complete. 10-8

By the way, bad guys like to go where the good stuff is. That usually means white affluent neighborhoods. No use trying to steal from the ghetto or bad side of town. Nothing much good unless it's already been stolen at least once before. kwg
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Sounds like one of those places where most of the cops have no experience...and never get any.


It's a different kind of policing, that's a fact. I worked a place like that. The great majority of the guys I worked with had transferred from Birminahm PD, or Jefferson Co. SD (which is Birimingham). They had plenty of experience. More goes on in these places than people think. Those types of places don't like to advertise their crime. Like kwg said...it's the type place ripe for lots of property crime. It was quite much of the time where I worked, but being that were were only a 10 minute ride from 2 of Birmingham's largest projects on the Southside, we got plenty of spill over. Again though it wasn't like woking the big city admittedly. And, I saw few of the newly transferred officers get in to a bit of trouble when they treated our locals like they were in the projects in B'ham. You still need to be on top of your game in places like that.
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By the way, bad guys like to go where the good stuff is. That usually means white affluent neighborhoods. No use trying to steal from the ghetto or bad side of town. Nothing much good unless it's already been stolen at least once before


Which is exactly why those dummies could have very easily been shot.
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By the way, bad guys like to go where the good stuff is. That usually means white affluent neighborhoods. No use trying to steal from the ghetto or bad side of town. Nothing much good unless it's already been stolen at least once before. kwg


If that was true there would be no crime in Oakland. Only city that ever scared me.
If Oakland is in Kalifornia keep in mind no rules of common behavior apply. After all, it's Kalifornia. kwg

I just had a look at that story again. Once the officers made contact with the kids - two of whom were residents - it appears they may have had permission to be in the house.

No way to tell if the permission was coerced or freely and voluntarily given.

I think we need Gaviidae to give us the skinny on Minnesota case law. smile

- Tom


Originally Posted by Violator22

But they went further in Troy Molde's case on Thursday. Police entered the house where four children under 7 were having a sleepover, and then went upstairs to Molde's bedroom.



Police man to 6 year old child: "hey sonny, were the police, can we come in?"

Permission? Hmmmmm.

.280:

I know some local judges who would accept that. smile

- Tom
Originally Posted by tjm10025

.280:

I know some local judges who would accept that. smile

- Tom


Like was said earlier..."in the interests of public/officer safety" is pretty much all a cop needs to say to circumvent the 4th amendment.
Originally Posted by tjm10025
No way to tell if the permission was coerced or freely and voluntarily given.

The issue in my mind, if I were one of those cops, would not be whether I had permission from a 6-year-old kid or not, but whether I was about to get holes punched in me. It wouldn't be clear to me that having the former would produce any effect at all on the latter.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Sounds like one of those places where most of the cops have no experience...and never get any.


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I've been to training schools with officers from big cities, they do all right aslong as they have street lights, back up and supervision. smirk
WE enter the house as a last resort. We try to run a plate and make telephone calls first. This is the good part about having a listed and public telephone number. (and you're not too lazy or stubborn to answer it at o'dark thirty) DO NOT let the answering machine get it.
If no adult answers and we decide to go in and we happen to talk to the kids the conversation goes like this:
Are your mom or dad home? Can we talk to them? Are they in bed? Is that up stairs or down? Followed by; HELLO! POLICE IN THE HOUSE! HELLO! POLICE IN THE HOUSE! While moving slowly from room to room. I'm sorry to wake you up, but.....
That's been my technique for 31 years. I'm still here and I've been in a bunch of houses.

Now, think about this:
If your kids are afraid to go into the bedroom and wake you up in an emergency, (Police at the door is an emergency) my question to you is how are you raising and what are you teaching your kids? I don't need to know your answer.

If your going to leave signs of a problem in or around your home that might get the attention of a friend, neighbor, family member or local Police; the moral of the story is simple, have a listed telephone number. Be willing to answer it 24/7 and 365 days a year. If you can't or won't do that be prepared for that 3:00 a.m. visit by somebody, GOOD or BAD. kwg
Originally Posted by NH K9
I've never had anybody fail to respond to me "knocking" regardless of the time (and I work mostly mids). Most LEOs that I know "knock" with the butt end of a maglight. As someone here once said "it never don't not work".

George


_________________________________________________________________

I can get someone awake with either a flashlight knocking or having dispatch checking if they have a phone number listed or unlisted. I can always bump the siren grin and not have to go past the door frame.
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If your going to leave signs of a problem in or around your home that might get the attention of a friend, neighbor, family member or local Police; the moral of the story is simple, have a listed telephone number. Be willing to answer it 24/7 and 365 days a year. If you can't or won't do that be prepared for that 3:00 a.m. visit by the somebody, GOOD or BAD. kwg


Since when is leaving your garage door up and the keys in your car, signs of a problem?

It simply isn't your business to be a nanny. Come when called, otherwise, butt out.
Come when called, otherwise, butt out.
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WOW!!
To me at 0300 an open garage CAN be a problem, espesially in a "target" (affluent with the good stuff) neighborhood. Not answering a telephone call and having children who will not get a parent when the parent is home is a major problem. My next question is, are they alive? Prove it. kwg

"Come when called, otherwise, butt out".
Then please post that sign on your house in plain sight so we don't waste our time. When you get ripped off please don't call the PD. Call your insurance agent and have him file the police report for you. (yea, that will happen)
kwg
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
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If your going to leave signs of a problem in or around your home that might get the attention of a friend, neighbor, family member or local Police; the moral of the story is simple, have a listed telephone number. Be willing to answer it 24/7 and 365 days a year. If you can't or won't do that be prepared for that 3:00 a.m. visit by the somebody, GOOD or BAD. kwg


Since when is leaving your garage door up and the keys in your car, signs of a problem?

It simply isn't your business to be a nanny. Come when called, otherwise, butt out.


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And you'ld probably be the first one crying that you got ripped off, and that the police are flippen worthless, because they didn't protect your property and they (police) better find out who stole your property.

I see 95% more folks daily, who think that way, then those who don't. Why don't you poll your neighbors as to what their opinions would be on the subject. Police waking them up due to unlocked garage or keys in veh. -vs- noticing it and leaving as to not disturb them.

I've done both, i've awakened people and have been thanked and have had them call the agency and state that the LEO's were doing a good job. I've noticed things that were unsecure and have attempted to notify the residents and had no luck. I then had dispatch note the unsecure door, keys etc. one my log, and no response at the door, no entry was made. I was covered as far as liability. These types of incidents, go on everyday, in every city or county in the US.
Doesn't anybody think that the cops announced their presence. After all, the kids came to the door. So all of you blasting the cops think they snuck in unannounced and were quietly walking in the house and went on up to the bedroom to wake the father? It's absurd to think they wouldn't have been announcing their presence from the time of the first knock on the door to the waking up of the father. Do you guys really think they were in covert mode sneaking around the house? I have to agree with Bob on this one, damned if you do damned if you don't. I personally would have appreciated a cop checking in on us with the circumstances provided above.



Clyde
No, I wouldn't be crying about the cops not doing their job. Their job is to come when called. Their job is not to mind my business. If I want to leave my garage open, keys in my car, and whatever else I want to do as long as it is legal, it is my right. And I don't expect to be awakened at 3:00 a.m. about it.

Originally Posted by BLG
Doesn't anybody think that the cops announced their presence. After all, the kids came to the door. So all of you blasting the cops think they snuck in unannounced and were quietly walking in the house and went on up to the bedroom to wake the father? It's absurd to think they wouldn't have been announcing their presence from the time of the first knock on the door to the waking up of the father. Do you guys really think they were in covert mode sneaking around the house? I have to agree with Bob on this one, damned if you do damned if you don't. I personally would have appreciated a cop checking in on us with the circumstances provided above.



Clyde


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Exactly, i announce "Sheriff's Office" loudly, multiple times if and when i enter a residence in this type of situation.
Originally Posted by kwg020
"Come when called, otherwise, butt out".
Then please post that sign on your house in plain sight so we don't waste our time. When you get ripped off please don't call the PD. Call your insurance agent and have him file the police report for you. (yea, that will happen)
kwg

Now there's an idea. Do you figure that if we did that, and the police department agreed to provide us no service whatever, we could get the city to stop charging us tax for police service?

That might definitely be a deal worth taking: see below.
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by kwg020
"Come when called, otherwise, butt out".
Then please post that sign on your house in plain sight so we don't waste our time. When you get ripped off please don't call the PD. Call your insurance agent and have him file the police report for you. (yea, that will happen)
kwg

Now there's an idea. Do you figure that if we did that, and the police department agreed to provide us no service whatever, we could get the city to stop charging us tax for police service?

That might definitely be a deal worth taking: see below.


Of course, not. In fact, the sign would immediately make you a "person of suspicion" worthy of extra scrutiny.
Originally Posted by hunter1960
And you'ld probably be the first one crying that you got ripped off, and that the police are flippen worthless, because they didn't protect your property and they (police) better find out who stole your property.

I've had my property stolen before. On two such occasions, the thieves were not themselves police. When those thefts happened, I had no such non-service agreement with the police as Cossatotjoe and kwg020 are talking about, and I was being charged tax by the city to pay for police service.

However, on neither of those occasions were the police the least bit interested in recovering my stolen property--or even talking to me about it. I ended up having to find the thieves and recover the property myself.

The question of whether I should arrange not to be charged taxes in exchange for giving up that sort of police service is a no-brainer, at least to me. If I could do that I might have enough money to hire real security service.
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
No, I wouldn't be crying about the cops not doing their job. Their job is to come when called. Their job is not to mind my business. If I want to leave my garage open, keys in my car, and whatever else I want to do as long as it is legal, it is my right. And I don't expect to be awakened at 3:00 a.m. about it.




Coss, how is it minding your business if they see an apparent issue where a crime may be taking place. What if this was a home invasion and they would have stopped an attack, rape or robbery? These guys wouldn't be vilainized. It would be said they did an outstanding job. But since no crime was committed (not even by the cops), then no harm no foul. Some of you guys are really starting to look paranoid. I just hope no one here ever needs the services of a cop, but if you ever do, would you accept it, or would you just start blathering on about oppression?



Clyde
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Of course, not. In fact, the sign would immediately make you a "person of suspicion" worthy of extra scrutiny.

My brother, believe me when I tell you: I'm already a person of suspicion worthy of extra scrutiny.
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by hunter1960
And you'ld probably be the first one crying that you got ripped off, and that the police are flippen worthless, because they didn't protect your property and they (police) better find out who stole your property.

I've had my property stolen before. On two such occasions, the thieves were not themselves police. When those thefts happened, I had no such non-service agreement with the police as Cossatotjoe and kwg020 are talking about, and I was being charged tax by the city to pay for police service.

However, on neither of those occasions were the police the least bit interested in recovering my stolen property--or even talking to me about it. I ended up having to find the thieves and recover the property myself.

The question of whether I should arrange not to be charged taxes in exchange for giving up that sort of police service is a no-brainer, at least to me. If I could do that I might have enough money to hire real security service.


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Your still going to have to pay taxes on your property and from that, you'll still get police and fire service. Your fantasy world, of privatization isn't going to happen either, sorry to be the one who has to tell you.
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Coss, how is it minding your business if they see an apparent issue where a crime may be taking place. What if this was a home invasion and they would have stopped an attack, rape or robbery? These guys wouldn't be vilainized. It would be said they did an outstanding job. But since no crime was committed (not even by the cops), then no harm no foul. Some of you guys are really starting to look paranoid. I just hope no one here ever needs the services of a cop, but if you ever do, would you accept it, or would you just start blathering on about oppression?


First of all, I don't want them to do anything when a crime, MAY be taking place. Their job is to do something when a crime IS taking place.

As for paranoid. well, this all turned out well because of luck. What if the guy had awakened disoriented and fought them or shot at them? Someone would be dead. What if he had told them, "Thank you, now WTF are you doing in my house? Get out now?" Do you think they would have just left? Or do you think that there likely would have been some sort of altercation?

I don't care about their motives. There are certain lines that shouldn't be crossed and certain things that must be respected. Don't mind someone else's business.

I don't expect or want my neighbors to come into my house univited and that goes doubly for any agents of the state.
That is probably the most profound and true statment I've ever heard from you Barak. smile (Insert favorite smiley face here)
kwg

Coss, trust me. I don't want to ever go into someones home without some kind of legitimate reason, up to and including your home. And most of all I have enough trouble dealing with my business let alone yours. But sometimes going into someone elses personel space needs to be done.

See Gadfly's story below. kwg
I have a personal anecdote from my brief career in law enforcement on the dangers of entering someones home, even when legally justified, or, as in this case, legally required. I was working a graveyard shift when the dispatcher notified me that he had received a call from an elderly woman advising that her husband had just died. She was unable to give an address (pre-911 days) and the dispatcher was having difficulties getting directions from her to the residence. Finally, after about 10 minutes of getting visual descriptions (blue house, white porch, etc.) I found the residence. I was greeted by a distraught and clearly confused elderly lady of about 80 who informed me that she had gone to her husband's bed room to check on him and found him not breathing. I entered the house and approached the bedroom where I heard loud, if somewhat irregular breathing. I called out the man's name with no response, and then rapped loudly on the door frame with my mag light, still with no response. I flipped the light switch on in the bedroom, but the bulb was out, so I switched on the 40,000 candlepower mag light so I could see what was happening. This brought an immediate response from the "deceased party", he awoke and lunged towards the nightstand next to the bed. Being much younger and nimbler at the time I was able to leap across the room and pin his arm down before he could reach what he was grabbing for, which happened to be a S&W Mod. 10 revolver. After he finally saw my uniform he quit struggling and I was able to explain rather loudly (he was nearly deaf, which was the reason he didn't respond to my voice or the knocking)that his wife had called reporting that he had quit breathing and that I had come there to check on his welfare. He advised me that his wife had been diagnosed with dementia, and often had panic attacks where she thought he was dead. After we got everything sorted out I apologized for disturbing him and he apologized for his wife's false report and I left him and his wife to sort out his apparent resurrection. All and all a bad situation, he would have been morally justified in my mind (what would I have done if awakened in the middle of the night by a stranger in my bedroom), if not in the opinion of the court, in shooting me in self defense, and I would have been legally justified in using deadly force to prevent him from shooting me while in the lawful performance of my duty, although I would have never recovered emotionally from such an outcome. I am glad I got out of law enforcement.
I'm not Cossatotjoe, and I'm sure he'll do a better job, but I can't resist.

Originally Posted by BLG
Coss, how is it minding your business if they see an apparent issue where a crime may be taking place.

If it's my home, it's none of the State's business, unless I choose to make it so. I understand the goodness-of-their-hearts nature of this particular operation; but the police shouldn't be responsible for wiping my nose when it's runny and making sure I wear a coat when it's cold. That's my responsibility.

There are all sorts of situations that from just the wrong perspective might look like "an apparent issue where a crime may be taking place." I'll bet whatever you're doing right now could be characterized that way. (Cop sees you at a computer without seeing what's on the screen: you could be downloading child pornography or posting bomb-making instructions to a jihadist website.) That's wayyy too vague a generalization to justify an agent of the State armed with deadly force poking his nose into something.

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What if this was a home invasion and they would have stopped an attack, rape or robbery?

And what if it wasn't, and they trespassed on private property and triggered a misunderstanding leading to one or more people being shot and/or killed?

You remember how in personal-defense courses they teach you not to interfere in situations where it looks to you like somebody you don't know is attacking somebody else you don't know, because such situations are frequently very deceptive, and you might end up shooting an innocent person? And then they give you several examples?

If a crime is being committed against me, I'll be able to tell, and I'll take whatever actions are appropriate to the situation. I am not at all confident in a stranger's ability to tell whether or not a crime is being committed against me--especially a stranger armed with lethal force and immunized against prosecution by the State.

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These guys wouldn't be vilainized. It would be said they did an outstanding job.

Of course it would. Most people don't give a rip for liberty, even the ones who say they do. It might be because they don't understand what it is, or it might just be because it's easier not to take responsibility for themselves.

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I just hope no one here ever needs the services of a cop, but if you ever do, would you accept it, or would you just start blathering on about oppression?

At the rates I pay? Are you kidding?
Originally Posted by Gadfly
I entered the house and approached the bedroom where I heard loud, if somewhat irregular breathing. I called out the man's name with no response, and then rapped loudly on the door frame with my mag light, still with no response. I flipped the light switch on in the bedroom, but the bulb was out, so I switched on the 40,000 candlepower mag light so I could see what was happening.

I realize this is Monday-morning quarterbacking, but why didn't you have the wife escort you into the bedroom?

I've had a number of people invite me over to their house to fix their computer, and it would never have occurred to me to go looking for their computer on my own, knocking on closed doors and trying to open them, turning on lights, and so on. I always just let the "customer" (there's never any money exchanged) show me the computer herself, and she takes care of opening the doors and turning on the lights--and letting anyone else who might be in the house know I'm around.

Another thing occurred to me. Given that he was an old guy, and old folks are frequently more at risk for heart problems and vulnerable to sudden scares and such, why did you choose to leap across the room at him when he went for his gun--you say you understood his intruder-in-the-house response--rather than simply moving back behind cover and announcing yourself again, or even leaving the house entirely? After all, the call was to deal with a dead guy, and this guy wasn't dead.
I've sort of batted this around in my head a bit. Here's my final take based on what I know, and there's a lot I/we don't know.

Forget the kids, and whether they gave permission. They were under 7 years old. I understand the great "campaign" the PD was one to get people to be more aware of locking up. I even appreciate that. Campaigns of that sort need to be conducted, as was noted in the news report, by leaving friendly reminders or making contact with citizens when the lights are on, and it's clear someone is home and awake. This thing about police using all the wild things they can dream up that "might be wrong" to go into houses or violate people's privacy is out of hand in a lot of places. (Remember this guy did NOT appreciate the intrusion) I think prudent judgement could have gone a long way here. Get the keys out of the truck, lock it up. Give the keys to the kid. Ask the kids, who apparently were awake or woke at the knock "is everything ok" while standing on the porch at the front door. Maybe get one of them to close the garage if they knew how, and leave a card explaining the contact with the keys. Like Gadfly explained, when you go in someone's home at night, and wake them, if you're not supposed to be there, bad things could happen. I appreciate a little proactive policing, and thank God nothing bad really happened here, but IMO, the officers used poor judgement. It's my feeling that in this country, the police better have much, MUCH more to go to make warrantless entry to a home than just some basic unsecured property which could be much more easily explained by the normal explanations rather than some sinister "mighta been a serial killer afoot" thinking because this guy wouldn't answer the door at 3am. Just glad nothing bad happened.

The troubling thing is that it happened in TX, or AL, if the officers had been shot, it'd be just 2 dead officers that did something most thought was stupid. Meanwhile, if it happened in CA or NY, you might very well have a homeowner on trial for his very life.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't!!

If this family had suffered a criminal act, there would be a multi-million dollar lawsuit lodged against a handful of defendant's in less than a month.
Originally Posted by Barak
There are all sorts of situations that from just the wrong perspective might look like "an apparent issue where a crime may be taking place."

This reminds me of something Barak said the other night. The night that I passed out on the bedroom floor, I was extremely lucky not to die. Of course, Barak was glad I didn't die because he loves me... but he also said to me, "Hoo boy... can you imagine if you had died? I'd have had to deal with the police... and they always suspect the husband first."

That made me stop and think for a moment. And I said to him, "No one would ever think you killed me... all they'd have to do is ask all the people who know us and they'd find out from everyone, without exception, how much we loved each other." Well, he just looked at me. It didn't convince him.

Hopefully, if I HAD died, they would have done an autopsy... and that would have cleared him.

Penny
Originally Posted by isaac
Damned if you do, damned if you don't!!

If this family had suffered a criminal act, there would be a multi-million dollar lawsuit lodged against a handful of defendant's in less than a month.


You know much better than that. You know that it is an old and well established precedent that the police are under no obligation to come to anyone's aid or protect anyone. There is no duty on the part of police that would provide grounds for a suit.
There's an obligation if they do. As they certainly did in this matter.
Originally Posted by isaac
Maybe it's a reginal thing. Around here, if lights are on, TV on, garage and house door open and noone answers a knock, it's more than suspicious.
AGREED.

It is not just a regional thing.

It is suspicious and worth investigating.

That is all that happened, BTW.

Thwe police investigated.

That is their job, plain and simple.

Once inside, they were INVITED to go wake up dad.

BMT
Originally Posted by isaac
There's an obligation if they do. As they certainly did in this matter.


Right, but your assertion is misleading. Had they simply chosen to continue on their way and do nothing, there would have been no liability on their part if there had been a criminal act in the house. The police have no duty to help.
by that, do you mean not investigate, at all??
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Originally Posted by isaac
There's an obligation if they do. As they certainly did in this matter.


Right, but your assertion is misleading. Had they simply chosen to continue on their way and do nothing, there would have been no liability on their part if there had been a criminal act in the house. The police have no duty to help.


I want to work where you live if that's the prevailing thought pattern there. It will make my life a whole lot easier to do nothing about things I observe that are suspicious.

George
Originally Posted by NH K9
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Originally Posted by isaac
There's an obligation if they do. As they certainly did in this matter.


Right, but your assertion is misleading. Had they simply chosen to continue on their way and do nothing, there would have been no liability on their part if there had been a criminal act in the house. The police have no duty to help.


I want to work where you live if that's the prevailing thought pattern there. It will make my life a whole lot easier to do nothing about things I observe that are suspicious.

George


Police have no legal duty to protect or even enforce the law. It a very old precedent that has been challenged many many times with some cases with horrendous facts. Instances where the police were called many times while someone was being raped or killed and where sometimes through either sheer ineptitude or even intentional neglect, no police officer came and very bad things happened to people. And not one single time, has a police officer or agency been found negligent for failing to act. That is because the police HAVE NO LEGAL DUTY to act or protect someone.

Isaac implied that they did. I merely pointed out that they don't.
I'm well aware of what police have the legal duty to do and not do. I'm also well aware of what those who employ me (the residents of my jurisdiction) expect. If I see something suspicious, it's my job to check it out. Would I enter the house under these circumstances? Personally, probably not. As I stated before, I've never had a problem waking up a resident through one means or another.

George
Originally Posted by NH K9
I'm well aware of what police have the legal duty to do and not do. I'm also well aware of what those who employ me (the residents of my jurisdiction) expect. If I see something suspicious, it's my job to check it out. Would I enter the house under these circumstances? Personally, probably not. As I stated before, I've never had a problem waking up a resident through one means or another.

George


Apparently not or you wouldn't have commented as you did.
My interpretation of what Isaac said was that if, after making the observations they did, they left without making contact and there was a serious problem that there could be a payday. IME he's right. I've seen paydays around here for much less.
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Originally Posted by NH K9
I'm well aware of what police have the legal duty to do and not do. I'm also well aware of what those who employ me (the residents of my jurisdiction) expect. If I see something suspicious, it's my job to check it out. Would I enter the house under these circumstances? Personally, probably not. As I stated before, I've never had a problem waking up a resident through one means or another.

George


Apparently not or you wouldn't have commented as you did.


Again, I'm well aware of my duties. It would just be easier to work somewhere where I wasn't expected to check things out. I can be apathetic with the best of them.

George
Originally Posted by NH K9
My interpretation of what Isaac said was that if, after making the observations they did, they left without making contact and there was a serious problem that there could be a payday. IME he's right. I've seen paydays around here for much less.


I doubt it. Here is a little essay on the subject:

Police Have No Duty To Protect Individuals
by Peter Kasler

Self-Reliance For Self-Defense -- Police Protection Isn't Enough!
All our lives, especially during our younger years, we hear that the police are there to protect us. From the very first kindergarten- class visit of "Officer Friendly" to the very last time we saw a police car - most of which have "To Protect and Serve" emblazoned on their doors - we're encouraged to give ourselves over to police protection. But it hasn't always been that way.

Before the mid-1800s, American and British citizens - even in large cities - were expected to protect themselves and each other. Indeed, they were legally required to pursue and attempt to apprehend criminals. The notion of a police force in those days was abhorrent in England and America, where liberals viewed it as a form of the dreaded "standing army."

England's first police force, in London, was not instituted until 1827. The first such forces in America followed in New York, Boston, and Philadelphia during the period between 1835 and 1845. They were established only to augment citizen self-protection. It was never intended that they act affirmatively, prior to or during criminal activity or violence against individual citizens. Their duty was to protect society as a whole by deterrence; i.e., by systematically patrolling, detecting and apprehending criminals after the occurrence of crimes. There was no thought of police displacing the citizens' right of self-protection. Nor could they, even if it were intended.

Professor Don B. Kates, Jr., eminent civil rights lawyer and criminologist, states:


Even if all 500,000 American police officers were assigned to patrol, they could not protect 240 million citizens from upwards of 10 million criminals who enjoy the luxury of deciding when and where to strike. But we have nothing like 500,000 patrol officers; to determine how many police are actually available for any one shift, we must divide the 500,000 by four (three shifts per day, plus officers who have days off, are on sick leave, etc.). The resulting number must be cut in half to account for officers assigned to investigations, juvenile, records, laboratory, traffic, etc., rather than patrol. [1]
Such facts are underscored by the practical reality of today's society. Police and Sheriff's departments are feeling the financial exigencies of our times, and that translates directly to a reduction of services, e.g., even less protection. For example, one moderate day recently (September 23, 1991) the San Francisco Police Department "dropped" [2] 157 calls to its 911 facility, and about 1,000 calls to its general telephone number (415-553-0123). An SFPD dispatcher said that 150 dropped 911 calls, and 1,000 dropped general number calls, are about average on any given day. [3]

It is, therefore, a fact of law and of practical necessity that individuals are responsible for their own personal safety, and that of their loved ones. Police protection must be recognized for what it is: only an auxiliary general deterrent.

Because the police have no general duty to protect individuals, judicial remedies are not available for their failure to protect. In other words, if someone is injured because they expected but did not receive police protection, they cannot recover damages by suing (except in very special cases, explained below). Despite a long history of such failed attempts, however, many, people persist in believing the police are obligated to protect them, attempt to recover when no protection was forthcoming, and are emotionally demoralized when the recovery fails. Legal annals abound with such cases.

Warren v. District of Columbia is one of the leading cases of this type. Two women were upstairs in a townhouse when they heard their roommate, a third woman, being attacked downstairs by intruders. They phoned the police several times and were assured that officers were on the way. After about 30 minutes, when their roommate's screams had stopped, they assumed the police had finally arrived. When the two women went downstairs they saw that in fact the police never came, but the intruders were still there. As the Warren court graphically states in the opinion: "For the next fourteen hours the women were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual acts upon each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands of their attackers."

The three women sued the District of Columbia for failing to protect them, but D.C.'s highest court exonerated the District and its police, saying that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [4] There are many similar cases with results to the same effect. [5]

In the Warren case the injured parties sued the District of Columbia under its own laws for failing to protect them. Most often such cases are brought in state (or, in the case of Warren, D.C.) courts for violation of state statutes, because federal law pertaining to these matters is even more onerous. But when someone does sue under federal law, it is nearly always for violation of 42 U.S.C. 1983 (often inaccurately referred to as "the civil rights act"). Section 1983 claims are brought against government officials for allegedly violating the injured parties' federal statutory or Constitutional rights.

The seminal case establishing the general rule that police have no duty under federal law to protect citizens is DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services. [6] Frequently these cases are based on an alleged "special relationship" between the injured party and the police. In DeShaney the injured party was a boy who was beaten and permanently injured by his father. He claimed a special relationship existed because local officials knew he was being abused, indeed they had "specifically proclaimed by word and deed [their] intention to protect him against that danger," [7] but failed to remove him from his father's custody.

The Court in DeShaney held that no duty arose because of a "special relationship," concluding that Constitutional duties of care and protection only exist as to certain individuals, such as incarcerated prisoners, involuntarily committed mental patients and others restrained against their will and therefore unable to protect themselves. "The affirmative duty to protect arises not from the State's knowledge of the individual's predicament or from its expressions of intent to help him, but from the limitation which it has imposed on his freedom to act on his own behalf." [8]

About a year later, the United States Court of Appeals interpreted DeShaney in the California case of Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Department. [9] Ms. Balistreri, beaten and harassed by her estranged husband, alleged a "special relationship" existed between her and the Pacifica Police Department, to wit, they were duty-bound to protect her because there was a restraining order against her husband. The Court of Appeals, however, concluded that DeShaney limited the circumstances that would give rise to a "special relationship" to instances of custody. Because no such custody existed in Balistreri, the Pacifica Police had no duty to protect her, so when they failed to do so and she was injured they were not liable. A citizen injured because the police failed to protect her can only sue the State or local government in federal court if one of their officials violated a federal statutory or Constitutional right, and can only win such a suit if a "special relationship" can be shown to have existed, which DeShaney and its progeny make it very difficult to do. Moreover, Zinermon v. Burch [10] very likely precludes Section 1983 liability for police agencies in these types of cases if there is a potential remedy via a State tort action.

Many states, however, have specifically precluded such claims, barring lawsuits against State or local officials for failure to protect, by enacting statutes such as California's Government Code, Sections 821, 845, and 846 which state, in part: "Neither a public entity or a public employee [may be sued] for failure to provide adequate police protection or service, failure to prevent the commission of crimes and failure to apprehend criminals."

It is painfully clear that the police cannot be relied upon to protect us. Thus far we've seen that they have no duty to do so. And we've also seen that even if they did have a duty to protect us, practically- speaking they could not fulfill it with sufficient certainty that we would want to bet our lives on it.

Now it's time to take off the gloves, so to speak, and get down to reality. So the police aren't duty-bound to protect us, and they can't be expected to protect us even if they want to. Does that mean that they won't protect us if they have the opportunity?

One of the leading cases on this point dates way back into the 1950s. [11] A certain Ms. Riss was being harassed by a former boyfriend, in a familiar pattern of increasingly violent threats. She went to the police for help many times, but was always rebuffed. Desperate because she could not get police protection, she applied for a gun permit, but was refused that as well. On the eve of her engagement party she and her mother went to the police one last time pleading for protection against what they were certain was a serious and dangerous threat. And one last time the police refused. As she was leaving the party, her former boyfriend threw acid in her face, blinding and permanently disfiguring her.

Her case against the City of New York for failing to protect her was, not surprisingly, unsuccessful. The lone dissenting justice of New York's high court wrote in his opinion: "What makes the City's position [denying any obligation to protect the woman] particularly difficult to understand is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law [she] did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus, by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City of New York which now denies all responsibility to her." [12]

Instances of police refusing to protect someone in grave danger, who is urgently requesting help, are becoming disturbingly more common. In 1988, Lisa Bianco's violently abusive husband was finally in jail for beating and kidnapping her, after having victimized her for years. Ms. Bianco was somewhat comforted by the facts that he was supposedly serving a seven-year sentence, and she had been promised by the authorities that she'd be notified well in advance of his release. Nevertheless, after being in only a short time, he was temporarily released on an eight-hour pass, and she wasn't notified. He went directly to her house and, in front of their 6- and 10- year old daughters, beat Lisa Bianco to death.

In 1989, in a suburb of Los Angeles, Maria Navarro called the L. A. County Sheriff's 911 emergency line asking for help. It was her birthday and there was a party at her house, but her estranged husband, against whom she had had a restraining order, said he was coming over to kill her. She believed him, but got no sympathy from the 911 dispatcher, who said: "What do you want us to do lady, send a car to sit outside your house?" Less than half an hour after Maria hung up in frustration, one of her guests called the same 911 line and informed the dispatcher that the husband was there and had already killed Maria and one other guest. Before the cops arrived, he had killed another.

But certainly no cop would stand by and do nothing while someone was being violently victimized. Or would they? In Freeman v. Ferguson [13] a police chief directed his officers not to enforce a restraining order against a woman's estranged husband because the man was a friend of the chief's. The man subsequently killed the woman and her daughter. Perhaps such a specific case is an anomaly, but more instances of general abuses aren't at all rare.

In one such typical case [14] , a woman and her son were harassed, threatened and assaulted by her estranged husband, all in violation of his probation and a restraining order. Despite numerous requests for police protection, the police did nothing because "the police department used an administrative classification that resulted in police protection being fully provided to persons abused by someone with whom the victim has no domestic relationship, but less protection when the victim is either: 1) a woman abused or assaulted by a spouse or boyfriend, or 2) a child abused by a father or stepfather." [15]

In a much more recent case, [16] a woman claimed she was injured because the police refused to make an arrest following a domestic violence call. She claimed their refusal to arrest was due to a city policy of gender- based discrimination. In that case the U. S. District Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit held that "no constitutional violation [occurred] when the most that can be said of the police is that they stood by and did nothing..." [17]

Do the police really harbor such indifference to the plight of certain victims? To answer that, let's leave the somewhat aloof and dispassionate world of legal precedent and move into the more easily understood "real world." I can state from considerable personal experience, unequivocally, that these things do happen. As to why they occur, I can offer only my opinion based on that experience and on additional research into the dark and murky areas of criminal sociopathy and police abuse.

One client of my partner's and mine had a restraining order against her violently abusive estranged husband. He had recently beaten her so savagely a metal plate had to be implanted in her jaw. Over and over he violated the court order, sometimes thirty times daily. He repeatedly threatened to kill her and those of use helping her. But the cops refused to arrest him for violating the order, even though they'd witnessed him doing so more than once. They danced around all over the place trying to explain why they wouldn't enforce the order, including inventing numerous absurd excuses about having lost her file (a common tactic in these cases). It finally came to light that there was a departmental order to not arrest anyone in that county for violating a protective order because the county had recently been sued by an irate (and wealthy) domestic violence arrestee.

In another of our cases, when Peggi and I served the man with restraining orders (something we're often required to do because various law enforcement agencies can't or won't do it), he threatened there and then to kill our client. Due to the vigorous nature of the threat, we went immediately to the police department to get it on file in case he attempted to carry it out during the few days before the upcoming court appearance. We spent hours filing the report, but two days later when our client went to the police department for a copy to take to court, she was told there was no record of her, her restraining order, her case, or our report.

She called in a panic. Without that report it would be more difficult securing a permanent restraining order against him. I paid an immediate visit to the chief of that department. We discussed the situation and I suggested various options, including dragging the officer to whom Peggi and I had given the detailed death threat report into court to explain under oath how it had gotten lost. In mere moments, an internal affairs officer was assigned to investigate and, while I waited, they miraculously produced the file and our report. I was even telephoned later and offered an effusive apology by various members of the department.

It is true that in the real world, law enforcement authorities very often do perpetuate the victimization. It is also true that each of us is the only person upon whom we can absolutely rely to avoid victimization. If our client in the last anecdote hadn't taken responsibility for her own fate, she might never have survived the ordeal. But she had sufficient resolve to fend for herself. Realizing the police couldn't or wouldn't help her, she contacted us. Then, when the police tried their bureaucratic shuffle on her, she called me. But for her determination to be a victim no more, and to take responsibility for her own destiny, she might have joined the countless others victimized first by criminals, then by the very system they expect will protect them.

Remember, even if the police were obligated to protect us (which they aren't), or even if they tried to protect us (which they often don't, a fact brought home to millions nationwide as they watched in horror the recent events in Los Angeles), most often there wouldn't be time enough for them to do it. It's about time that we came to grips with that, and resolved never to abdicate responsibility for our personal safety, and that of our loved ones, to anyone else.

While a couple of those cases are new to me (and have been saved for full review later), everything changes when you throw the word "negligence" into play.

PDs have been successfully sued for not taking the "correct" measurements at accident scenes. Negligence was involved because the PD was there and didn't get all the measurements the insureance company later wanted/needed.

The Officers observed something they felt was suspicious and stopped. If they just drove by there would be no issue. Once they stopped the opened themselves up via "negligence".

George
Barak, The woman did accompany me to the bedroom, but she was in a hysterical state and would not even acknowledge me when I told her that her husband was breathing. Why did I physically restrain the guy instead of retreating? To be honest, I just reacted. I can recall no thought process prior to acting. In police training you are taught to always control the hands in a physical confrontation. Perhaps I was instinctively falling back on that training, but believe me, there are times when stopping to think can get you killed. Sometimes you just have to react. In this case I got lucky. As far as what I should have done once I found that the man was not dead as reported, I had a hysterical unresponsive wife, a man who would not respond to loud voice communication and knocking who while breathing, was breathing laboriously and irregularly (I believe now that he had sleep apnea sp?) so I could not leave until I had determined there was not a medical emergency, and if not, someone was still going to have take care of the hysterical woman.
Trust me on this. The only way someone...anyone can be found negligent in any case whatsoever, is if they have a "duty" to the injured party. If there is no duty, there is no negligence.

A police officer could see a crime actually occurring, and under the common law standard, he has no duty to help. Therefore, no negligence if he didn't help.

Who the Hell is Kasler and why do you consider him an authority? He's an California lawyer and gun's right activist, right? BFD!!

LE and their jurisdictions are sued for millions each year for failures to protect. Jury instructions on negligence and civil jurisprudence don't corroborate yours or Mr Kasler's positon,at all.

Can you show me that one jury instruction or SC case that opines police have no obligation to protect individuals?
Just curious... didn't you have a partner to help you?

Penny
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Trust me on this. The only way someone...anyone can be found negligent in any case whatsoever, is if they have a "duty" to the injured party. If there is no duty, there is no negligence.


Not in Oregon.

Duty can be assumed by "coming to the door."

If they drive by, no duty.

One at the door, they will be on the hook.

Take a careful look at the those cases. Most involve LEOs showing up, finding "nothing" and leaving.

Thus NO DUTY.

Once they find a problem, the duty arises.

BMT
Where I was a police officer, you would likely find yourself unemployed for failing to act, legal or not. Yes, perhaps you could not be charged with a crime, but, that would not absolve you from action taken against you in some other form. Either way, you would be career shopping before long.
Originally Posted by BMT
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Trust me on this. The only way someone...anyone can be found negligent in any case whatsoever, is if they have a "duty" to the injured party. If there is no duty, there is no negligence.


Not in Oregon.

Duty can be assumed by "coming to the door."

If they drive by, no duty.

Once at the door, with suspicious facts all around, they will be on the hook.

Take a careful look at the those "no duty" cases. Most involve LEOs showing up, finding "nothing" and leaving.

Thus NO DUTY.

Once they find a problem, the duty arises.

BMT
Originally Posted by isaac
Who the Hell is Kasler and why do you consider him an authority? He's an California lawyer and gun's right activist, right? BFD!!

LE and their jurisdictions are sued for millions each year for failures to protect. Jury instructions on negligence and civil jurisprudence don't corroborate yours or Mr Kasler's positon,at all.

Can you show me that one jury instruction or SC case that opines police have no obligation to protect individuals?


Did you even go to law school? That was one of the first things learned. It is beyond question that courts in practically every state have held that there is no general duty of the police to protect people.

Show me one of those cases where a police officer or agency was found negligent outside of a finding of a "special duty" by the court, a state statute specifically ordering police to protect, or a Section 1983 claim.
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Show me one of those cases where a police officer or agency was found negligent outside of a finding of a "special duty" by the court, a state statute specifically ordering police to protect, or a Section 1983 claim.


Umm, I went to Law School, and can assure you that a court will find a "special duty" under the facts given. At least here in Oregon.

BMT
Originally Posted by BMT
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Show me one of those cases where a police officer or agency was found negligent outside of a finding of a "special duty" by the court, a state statute specifically ordering police to protect, or a Section 1983 claim.


Umm, I went to Law School, and can assure you that a court will find a "special duty" under the facts given. At least here in Oregon.

BMT


I concede Oregon law to you, but do you really think there would be a "special duty" with no evidence whatsoever of any criminal act.
Originally Posted by BMT
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Trust me on this. The only way someone...anyone can be found negligent in any case whatsoever, is if they have a "duty" to the injured party. If there is no duty, there is no negligence.


Not in Oregon.

Duty can be assumed by "coming to the door."

If they drive by, no duty.

One at the door, they will be on the hook.

Take a careful look at the those cases. Most involve LEOs showing up, finding "nothing" and leaving.

Thus NO DUTY.

Once they find a problem, the duty arises.

BMT


Thank you. Put much better than I could.

George
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Trust me on this. The only way someone...anyone can be found negligent in any case whatsoever, is if they have a "duty" to the injured party. If there is no duty, there is no negligence.

A police officer could see a crime actually occurring, and under the common law standard, he has no duty to help. Therefore, no negligence if he didn't help.



We'll agree to disagree based on experiences.
George
We seriously disagree on evidence of a criminal act.

A door ajar at 3 AM is often evidence of a break in.

BMT
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Trust me on this. The only way someone...anyone can be found negligent in any case whatsoever, is if they have a "duty" to the injured party. If there is no duty, there is no negligence.

A police officer could see a crime actually occurring, and under the common law standard, he has no duty to help. Therefore, no negligence if he didn't help.



Coss,

I'd like to see the caselaw that says that if a police officer actually observes a crime in progress that they have no duty to help.

The assertion that "Police have no duty to protect individuals" is misleading as I read the case law. But police are charged with certain affirmative duties.

In this case though, I think, your assertion is correct that merely observing an open garage door on a residence at night triggered no duty to look further.
Did you even go to law school? That was one of the first things learned.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yeah smartass, I went to law school. Most likely well before you. It may have been one of the first things YOU learned in school but it appears you stopped there. Now, in your waffling, you want to address "special duty"

If a cop appears and presents himself to a potential crime scene, or the like, while displaying his badge of authority, your "special duty" arises. Negligence in that performance means 8 times out of 10, there's most likely going to be a civil suit.

Hit the books, you'll understand a bit better.
Quote
In this case though, I think, your assertion is correct that merely observing an open garage door on a residence at night triggered no duty to look further.


Jim,
If this is what Coss meant than I misunderstood and agree. However, once the officers stopped and made further observations then they put themselves in jeopardy by taking not further action.

George
I'm not feeling so well seeing that two lawyers, at least, are agreeing with what I'm trying to say. I'm going to eat before the feeling gets worse. smile

George
In this case though, I think, your assertion is correct that merely observing an open garage door on a residence at night triggered no duty to look further.
_________________________

It wasn't just an open garage door. It was an open door to the home itself, as well. Lights and TVs were on but noone would answer a knock. Might that not suggest the family wasn't able to respond for some reason?

If it were my home, I'd be appreciative. Especially were I gone and only my kids were inside the home.
Penny- No partner. Small town(2,700 pop.) with a small town budget. 6 full-time officers and a couple of part time reserves. If I had been shot, they would have sent my uniform to the cleaners to be washed and have the bullet hole sewed up, then they would have hired somebody my size to wear it.

"If a crime is being committed against me, I'll be able to tell, and I'll take whatever actions are appropriate to the situation. I am not at all confident in a stranger's ability to tell whether or not a crime is being committed against me--especially a stranger armed with lethal force and immunized against prosecution by the State."

Barak,

What if the crime is being committed "against your home"? Say an individual kicking in your front door. Don't you think it would be justified for a passing copper to stop and investigate?
"First of all, I don't want them to do anything when a crime, MAY be taking place. Their job is to do something when a crime IS taking place."

Sometimes it's damn near impossible to discern from "may" or "is" unless a copper stops to investigate.
Originally Posted by BMT
We seriously disagree on evidence of a criminal act.

A door ajar at 3 AM is often evidence of a break in.

BMT


No door was ajar. The front door was unlocked.
???? So Joe doesn't want intervention before the scuz is slicing off his head, he wants the intervention AS the scuz is slicing off his head. Who am I to disagree.
Originally Posted by Violator22
But this is going to far.

LAKEVILLE, Minn. - A Lakeville man says he feels violated after two police officers woke him up at 3 a.m. to tell him his door was unlocked.

Their surprise visit was part of a public service campaign to remind residents to secure their homes to prevent thefts. Usually, officers just leave notices on doors.

But they went further in Troy Molde's case on Thursday. Police entered the house where four children under 7 were having a sleepover, and then went upstairs to Molde's bedroom.

The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.
A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.

He says the kids inside � Molde's two sons and two nephews � were afraid to wake their dad, so the officers went upstairs.


There you go!

BMT
Understanding all the relevant facts is missed by some!!
Originally Posted by isaac
In this case though, I think, your assertion is correct that merely observing an open garage door on a residence at night triggered no duty to look further.
_________________________

It wasn't just an open garage door. It was an open door to the home itself, as well. Lights and TVs were on but noone would answer a knock. Might that not suggest the family wasn't able to respond for some reason?

If it were my home, I'd be appreciative. Especially were I gone and only my kids were inside the home.


We're headed down different paths here. (What they did vs. what they had a legal duty to do if any.) The open garage door triggered no duty to act. The open door to the home? Maybe no legal duty, but certainly any prudent officer would want to observe closer to see if there was evidence of forced entry, which there was none here. My problem comes when they entered the home absent clear forced entry. Obviously they talked to the kids at some point before they woke dad, so eventually they made contact before going too far, and obviously observed nothing about the young kids to heighten there suspicions. It's that instant that an officer enters a home on mere suspicion, and observed facts (no forced entry, just a door ajar, kids ok) that is my problem. Up to that point, they were doing what any good officers would do, but making entry to a home on mere suspicion is my problem. I just think better judgement would have been do convince one of the boys to go further in to the house to wake dad up, or at least give the home number so they could start ringing the phone in an attempt to wake him. Knowing more about what they observed and in what order would help. If I were on patrol, an open garage door on a home at 3 am wouldn't get me to stop. I'm not the citizen's baby sitter. They want to be careless with their stuff, the I'll take the report when it's stolen. An open front door, certainly would give rise to more suspicion. Absent signs of a break in, I wouldn't make entry until I exhausted all other options. Even then, I'd have to have more than an open door to make entry IMO.
Originally Posted by BMT
Originally Posted by Violator22
But this is going to far.

LAKEVILLE, Minn. - A Lakeville man says he feels violated after two police officers woke him up at 3 a.m. to tell him his door was unlocked.

Their surprise visit was part of a public service campaign to remind residents to secure their homes to prevent thefts. Usually, officers just leave notices on doors.

But they went further in Troy Molde's case on Thursday. Police entered the house where four children under 7 were having a sleepover, and then went upstairs to Molde's bedroom.

The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.
A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.

He says the kids inside � Molde's two sons and two nephews � were afraid to wake their dad, so the officers went upstairs.


There you go!

BMT


Well, [bleep]. There goes 3 hours of argument.

Although, I still think it was stupid to go rouse a man out of sleep. It could have turned out bad.
Quote
It could have turned out bad.


This is something I can agree with you on.

George
Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe
Well, [bleep]. There goes 3 hours of argument.


Best compliment I got all week. wink

BMT
I read it that it was unlocked, not ajar.
Originally Posted by Barak's Womn
So in Minnesota I can't leave my garage door open, if I want... or leave the TV on, or put my truck keys anywhere I decide I want to... or leave the house door open????

God save us from the Nanny State!!!! mad

Penny


In Denver, it is now illegal to leave your car warming up in the driveway or on the curb while unattended--to prevent car thefts...........

I wanna know if I lock my truck while it's running, and unlock it when I am ready to leave--would that still be illegal?


Casey
Originally Posted by Mac84

"If a crime is being committed against me, I'll be able to tell, and I'll take whatever actions are appropriate to the situation. I am not at all confident in a stranger's ability to tell whether or not a crime is being committed against me--especially a stranger armed with lethal force and immunized against prosecution by the State."

Barak,

What if the crime is being committed "against your home"? Say an individual kicking in your front door. Don't you think it would be justified for a passing copper to stop and investigate?

That individual might be me. Maybe I left my key in the house and after considerable thought I decided that kicking in the window on the door and then replacing it was the best option.

I don't need a nervous, armed agent of the State, with special legal immunities, whose objective is to enforce the decrees of the State on an unruly populace, entering that situation.

On the other hand, an armed agent of a private protection agency whose objective was to delight me as a customer of his company so as to retain my business and stimulate word-of-mouth advertising to my friends--that would be a different story.

I understand that government cops have the power to stop and investigate something like that, and if I try to do anything about it I'll end up in prison; I would just rather they didn't.
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Your still going to have to pay taxes on your property and from that, you'll still get police and fire service. Your fantasy world, of privatization isn't going to happen either, sorry to be the one who has to tell you.

Yup. Service quality doesn't matter; customer satisfaction doesn't matter; public opinion doesn't matter. The State must retain its monopoly at all costs: allow competition and the State might just find itself out of the business.
Nothing preventing you from hiring your own security force. As long as they obey the law, while obeying you, it might just personally work to your satisfaction.
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Your still going to have to pay taxes on your property and from that, you'll still get police and fire service. Your fantasy world, of privatization isn't going to happen either, sorry to be the one who has to tell you.

Yup. Service quality doesn't matter; customer satisfaction doesn't matter; public opinion doesn't matter. The State must retain its monopoly at all costs: allow competition and the State might just find itself out of the business.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well you can wish for your fantasy world in one hand, and schitt in the other and you'll see which one you get.

Nervous armed agent -vs- happy to see me rent a cop. You've got some real fantasy issues. You truly don't know what your talking about.

You like many don't have a damn clue about LE, but sure want to tell those that deal with it daily, what's wrong with it and how to fix it, but don't have a bit of experience dealing with it. I am sorry that you at one time in your life had a bad experience with LE, but like people say, get over it.

If it was so great, don't you think this privatization crap would of been tried somewhere, anywhere in the world.

Why don't you present it in your own town in OK ??? If it's so great and such a money saver etc, you'ld think that the citizens would be in favor of it. Or are you afraid that they'ld laugh you out of town, and see you as the kook, that you are?? That's why you get the special recognition by LE, it might be the tin foil hat.
I work in lakeville,live about 5 miles away.Never heard of this story till now.

Lakeville just unveiled their new police car.has two cameras mounted on the roof by the lights.It can read and check status of every license plate it sees.It can read cars parked on both sides of the street at the same time,as they drive by.
Originally Posted by fluffy
I work in lakeville,live about 5 miles away.Never heard of this story till now.

Lakeville just unveiled their new police car.has two cameras mounted on the roof by the lights.It can read and check status of every license plate it sees.It can read cars parked on both sides of the street at the same time,as they drive by.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That sounds like interesting technology, but i can see some on here bitching, that it's a violation of their civil rights.
"That individual might be me. Maybe I left my key in the house and after considerable thought I decided that kicking in the window on the door and then replacing it was the best option."

Exactly but no one would know unless someone took the time to investigate. Would they be justified to investigate?

What if your neighbor saw a police car roll by as your front door was being kicked in? Wouldn't that perturb you when the neighbor told you what he saw; knowing the police ignored a potential crime in progress (reputation withstanding - lol).

"On the other hand, an armed agent of a private protection agency whose objective was to delight me as a customer of his company so as to retain my business and stimulate word-of-mouth advertising to my friends--that would be a different story."

I see. All the other rhetoric aside, a ppa officer doing his duty is different than a police officer.? What would you expect the ppa cop to do if he stopped you and you didn't have proof you lived in the residence?




Originally Posted by isaac
Nothing preventing you from hiring your own security force. As long as they obey the law, while obeying you, it might just personally work to your satisfaction.

Security forces willing to protect you from the government police aren't cheap. It'd help if I didn't have to pay all this money to the government police for "services" for which I'd no longer have use or desire.
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Nervous armed agent -vs- happy to see me rent a cop. You've got some real fantasy issues. You truly don't know what your talking about.

So enlighten me.

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I am sorry that you at one time in your life had a bad experience with LE, but like people say, get over it.

Why?

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If it was so great, don't you think this privatization crap would of been tried somewhere, anywhere in the world.

Now you're overstepping yourself. Government police are a relatively recent phenomenon. Before government police, all security was private.
Sounds like they were just trying to "Protect and Serve". Doesn't happen all that often anymore so I'm glad to see an example every once in awhile.....
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Nervous armed agent -vs- happy to see me rent a cop. You've got some real fantasy issues. You truly don't know what your talking about.

So enlighten me.

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I am sorry that you at one time in your life had a bad experience with LE, but like people say, get over it.

Why?

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If it was so great, don't you think this privatization crap would of been tried somewhere, anywhere in the world.

Now you're overstepping yourself. Government police are a relatively recent phenomenon. Before government police, all security was private.


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I've seen what many of these security companies have to offer as far as personnel. Many are those, who are let go by LE agencies, these companies pay much less then that of LE agencies. The employees training and standards are less then that of LE agencies. If you truely did your research into these home security response/patrol companies, you'ld understand.


Again, i am sorry that in your life, that you were treated badly by LE. Did you file a complaint??? Did you seek to speak with the head of the agency or someone within the chain of command within the agency??? Besides you can't do anything about it now, and i don't think you'll live long enough, to ever see any of your so called private Govt. So it's a case of too bad, so sad, get over it.

Regarding Govt. LE -vs- Private LE, and the amount of time that it's been around. Govt. LE has been around longer then you have, and unless you've got some kind of, go back to the past gizmo, your not going back. So this is another case of get over it. I don't see any big move among the people to Barakistan.
Originally Posted by Mac84
"That individual might be me. Maybe I left my key in the house and after considerable thought I decided that kicking in the window on the door and then replacing it was the best option."

Exactly but no one would know unless someone took the time to investigate. Would they be justified to investigate?

What do you mean by "justified?" Are you talking about ethics?

In that sense, I'd say that somebody's justified in coming onto my property if I've given him permission to do so, otherwise not. A PPA agent would undoubtedly have such permission in his contract. A government agent, of course, doesn't. (The government has given him permission, certainly, but that's not quite the same thing.)

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What if your neighbor saw a police car roll by as your front door was being kicked in? Wouldn't that perturb you when the neighbor told you what he saw; knowing the police ignored a potential crime in progress (reputation withstanding - lol).

Of course not. Preventing crimes on my property is my job, not the State's. A State with enough power to do that has enough power to do all sorts of stuff it has no business doing. Some would argue that the State does have the responsibility to investigate a crime after it's already been committed.

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"On the other hand, an armed agent of a private protection agency whose objective was to delight me as a customer of his company so as to retain my business and stimulate word-of-mouth advertising to my friends--that would be a different story."

I see. All the other rhetoric aside, a ppa officer doing his duty is different than a police officer.?

Not as a person, no. But as I've explained before, he does have different motivations and incentives and objectives.

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What would you expect the ppa cop to do if he stopped you and you didn't have proof you lived in the residence?

Whatever would enhance the reputation of his company and make it more likely to attract customers. The free market is difficult to predict, but I'd guess a first step for him would be to click a button in his car and have his GPS location geocoded to an address, the address matched to an account, and pictures of everyone covered by that account displayed.
That's funny, GPS, geocode, computer pictures. These private security companies don't have any of that if you check around, it's too expensive to do business, with all the whiz bang stuff. They get by as cheap as they can, including equipment and personnel.

There's not too many Govt. LE agencies that have computers in their cars if you did a survey across the country, it's increasing though, but it's not the norm. I know agencies that are darn happy to have cameras for traffic stops.
justified as in righteous. Would an officer be "in the right" to investigate the example I gave?

"Preventing crimes on my property is my job, not the State's."

I agree 100% but in the example I gave, I make the assumption you are not home to protect your property. My mistake for not clarifying.


"Whatever would enhance the reputation of his company and make it more likely to attract customers."

That's a subjective requirement. What would please you would be different for the vast majority. smile

"The free market is difficult to predict, but I'd guess a first step for him would be to click a button in his car and have his GPS location geocoded to an address, the address matched to an account, and pictures of everyone covered by that account displayed."

Again, that's no different than what an officer would do. It's good technology but it only goes so far. It would have to be linked to criminal records to determine if you had legal standing to be there, i.e personal protection orders, court orders relating to domestic abuse, etc.


Fortunately we have that ability in my AO. Been using it for about the last 2.5 years or so.
Originally Posted by hunter1960
I've seen what many of these security companies have to offer as far as personnel. Many are those, who are let go by LE agencies, these companies pay much less then that of LE agencies. The employees training and standards are less then that of LE agencies. If you truely did your research into these home security response/patrol companies, you'ld understand.

You're looking at a market distorted by government coercion. The government has a forcible monopoly on police services: it's illegal for private companies to compete with government police, and it's illegal (as you pointed out) for individual citizens to cancel their government police service.
As an aside, a similar incident happened to me. I was locked out of my house and had to pry a window. A state troop rolled by and saw what I was doing. He pulled in to check it out and recognized me.

I didn't feel violated or imposed upon.
Originally Posted by hunter1960
That's funny, GPS, geocode, computer pictures. These private security companies don't have any of that if you check around, it's too expensive to do business, with all the whiz bang stuff. They get by as cheap as they can, including equipment and personnel.

See my remarks above about the market. And it's not particularly expensive. You can get a little Bluetooth GPS receiver puck to put on your dashboard for $50-70. A laptop computer is a few hundred--less if you use Linux rather than Windows. There are open-source geocoding libraries available on SourceForge; geographic data isn't free, but it's not that expensive either. The rest is just software.

The government, of course, would pay several times its value for such a system, to finance the various kickbacks, but the main problem wouldn't be the technology, it'd be the civil-rights folks screaming about the government requiring the people to submit to being photographed for a government database.

It'd be completely different for a PPA, though. A PPA would offer the photo database as a service, that could be voluntarily accepted or declined, and there'd be nothing for the civil-rights folks to complain about.
Originally Posted by Mac84
justified as in righteous. Would an officer be "in the right" to investigate the example I gave?

I understand that you're trying to clarify, but I don't understand what you mean. Righteous relative to what standard?

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"Preventing crimes on my property is my job, not the State's."

I agree 100% but in the example I gave, I make the assumption you are not home to protect your property.

Is it your position that my absence suddenly makes the defense of my property the State's responsibility?

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"Whatever would enhance the reputation of his company and make it more likely to attract customers."

That's a subjective requirement. What would please you would be different for the vast majority. smile

If that's true, then whatever pleases the vast majority would be available at commodity prices, while what pleases me would require custom designer fees.

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"The free market is difficult to predict, but I'd guess a first step for him would be to click a button in his car and have his GPS location geocoded to an address, the address matched to an account, and pictures of everyone covered by that account displayed."

Again, that's no different than what an officer would do. It's good technology but it only goes so far. It would have to be linked to criminal records to determine if you had legal standing to be there, i.e personal protection orders, court orders relating to domestic abuse, etc.

All that red tape is in place as an attempt to protect civil liberties, because government is coercive. A PPA is voluntary, not coercive; a PPA agent would have no truck with any such things. If you were paying your own money to a PPA, you'd want it to be as effective as possible: you'd be happy to provide things like photos of you and your family, and you'd also want to give its agents limited access to your property, with no regard to things like court orders and such.
I dont care if your a cop or not. If your knocking at 3am to tell me my door was unlocked or I left my keys in the truck, were goona have an issue.

Coming in the house? Bigger issue
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Originally Posted by fluffy
I work in lakeville,live about 5 miles away.Never heard of this story till now.

Lakeville just unveiled their new police car.has two cameras mounted on the roof by the lights.It can read and check status of every license plate it sees.It can read cars parked on both sides of the street at the same time,as they drive by.

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That sounds like interesting technology, but i can see some on here bitching, that it's a violation of their civil rights.


Maybe not a violation of civil rights, but it's damned expensive technology designed just to write tickets and generate revenue.
Barak,

Certainly your private security force can be trained to do things differently, and have customer friendly policies. But, when it comes down to nut cuttin' time, do you really think you're going to get humans to act any differently under stress of live fire? There's gonna be some things you just can't change about that type of job, no matter how customer friendly they try to make it...at least not without the sacrifice of actually doing the job.
It's been absolutely fascinating to read the various posts and dissenting arguments and issues on this particular item..

There are excellent points made on both sides.. Many of those are based upon either previous experiences and/or certainly the area of the country the poster resides..

In big cities, it seems many agree with the LEO.. In rural areas where population's spread out or especially in farming areas it would just not happen this way.. I've left my shed door open; my neighbors and local farmers are no different.. Further out, I bet I could find keys in cars easily and, up to the last 10 years or so, most people did not lock their doors at night or even when they went away.. Never had to.. But the closer one lives to a larger city (or in my case, where the dang city moves closer to ME) I now lock my doors at night and keep the vehicle keys in the house. The scum that seem to thrive in big cities have been branching out to the 'burbs and other rural areas to commit their crimes and it's causing us to change our outlook re: home security etc..

In any case, the posts have been truly interesting reading.

Best to you all.

Originally Posted by hunter1960
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Sounds like one of those places where most of the cops have no experience...and never get any.


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I've been to training schools with officers from big cities, they do all right aslong as they have street lights, back up and supervision. smirk


Dude, don't get your panties in a knot. I didn't say anything about the size of the department. There are lots of places where the cops receive lots of training (big and small), but get little applicable experience. These guys are dangerous. Same with any profession. Did you look at their UCR report?
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by hunter1960
That's funny, GPS, geocode, computer pictures. These private security companies don't have any of that if you check around, it's too expensive to do business, with all the whiz bang stuff. They get by as cheap as they can, including equipment and personnel.

See my remarks above about the market. And it's not particularly expensive. You can get a little Bluetooth GPS receiver puck to put on your dashboard for $50-70. A laptop computer is a few hundred--less if you use Linux rather than Windows. There are open-source geocoding libraries available on SourceForge; geographic data isn't free, but it's not that expensive either. The rest is just software.

The government, of course, would pay several times its value for such a system, to finance the various kickbacks, but the main problem wouldn't be the technology, it'd be the civil-rights folks screaming about the government requiring the people to submit to being photographed for a government database.

It'd be completely different for a PPA, though. A PPA would offer the photo database as a service, that could be voluntarily accepted or declined, and there'd be nothing for the civil-rights folks to complain about.


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The technology isn't being used by these shake and bake security co's. They aren't going to spend the money. Why should they spend the money, they get the business at the cheapest rate as they can.

Even the big Co's like Wackenhut and others aren't going to spend the money. The police isn't keeping them out of business, there's plenty of places that use private security, but they aren't all that.

Your answer to everything is some kind of gizmo, i guess that's the computer geek in ya. smirk You also live in this fantasy world of business -vs- Govt.

As i've said before, why don't you present it to your town in OK, if it's such a great deal, put your money where your mouth is. Be the first town in America to go all private. I know you won't because you've got an excuse for every reason why it won't work.

It's just easier to use your excuses, then to present it. Oh well! i guess it's another wonderful day in fantasy land, Barakistan.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Sounds like one of those places where most of the cops have no experience...and never get any.


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I've been to training schools with officers from big cities, they do all right aslong as they have street lights, back up and supervision. smirk


Dude, don't get your panties in a knot. I didn't say anything about the size of the department. There are lots of places where the cops receive lots of training (big and small), but get little applicable experience. These guys are dangerous. Same with any profession. Did you look at their UCR report?


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What's wrong, you get your panties in a wad, if anyone talks about big city cops. This is your opinion based on your experiences in the big city of HOUSTAN.

LE isn't all about the big city and a big UCR, there's folks out in the country and smaller cities, who get just as much experience in crimes, that occur there, as they do in the big city, maybe not the volume, but they get the same experiences dealing with homicide, burglary, car thefts, gang crime, did i mention drugs, it's normally grown or manufactured in smaller areas.

Like i stated big city boys are great, aslong as they've got streetlights, backup, and supervision, and no snakes. smirk

Besides let the citizens in the community and the administration of the agency of which it occured, make the decisions of what was right and what was wrong. Because truly it's none of our business, what happens in that community other then for those who live there.

I see it everytime someone throws something up about LE, it's they should of done this or that, that was wrong, this is wrong. Unfortunatly, we never get to heart the officers side or the administrations side.

I've got friends from the military who are in LE and in agencies from the PNW to the SE, West TX to the NE. in agencies big and small. I've visited their agencies, and the one thing i've learned is that everywhere is different.

What works in one place depends upon the agency, and the needs and desires of the citizens in that community. I can't say that one agency or personnel was better then the other, they did what the citizens wanted and needed and the admin. was satisfied.
Neighborhood that I used to live in the next morning the car would be gone, anything worth takeing out of the garage would also be gone and at the least the refridgrater would be empteied out if not the entire house.
Originally Posted by chris112
Neighborhood that I used to live in the next morning the car would be gone, anything worth takeing out of the garage would also be gone and at the least the refridgrater would be empteied out if not the entire house.
You used to live in North Minneapolis??

laugh laugh
Originally Posted by chris112
Neighborhood that I used to live in the next morning the car would be gone, anything worth takeing out of the garage would also be gone and at the least the refridgrater would be empteied out if not the entire house.

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Rural and small town crime has increased in many areas. For the most part these criminals aren't rocket scientists, but they aren't stupid either, they'll find targets of opportunity.

I know agencies that have an assigned patrol area or service area of over 500 to 600 square miles and might have 3 to 4 deputies on at anytime. They may have small city police forces in the county to assist each other, but the cities may only have one or two officers on per shift themselves.
Originally Posted by .280Rem
Barak,

Certainly your private security force can be trained to do things differently, and have customer friendly policies. But, when it comes down to nut cuttin' time, do you really think you're going to get humans to act any differently under stress of live fire? There's gonna be some things you just can't change about that type of job, no matter how customer friendly they try to make it...at least not without the sacrifice of actually doing the job.

So you're saying that there's a balance, or tradeoff, between public relations and service effectiveness? Both are necessary, but after a certain point increasing one necessarily means decreasing the other?

I defer to your superior experience in the area.

But finding the right balance for this sort of tradeoff is a pursuit at which the free market has always excelled and the government has always sucked big green hairy ones.

For example, people need beans, and people need cotton. If you're a farmer, how many acres of your land should you plant in beans, and how many in cotton?

Well, you could plant whatever the government told you to plant, its instructions being created by political exigencies; if you did that, judging from the example of the Soviet Union, either there would be massive shortages or you would end up with huge moldering piles of beans and/or cotton that you couldn't sell. In either case, you'd be poor.

Or you could make the division according to the market prices of beans and cotton. If there aren't enough beans on the market, bean prices will go up, and sacrificing cotton for beans will make you more money. If there are too many beans on the market, bean prices will go down, and you'll make more money by planting some of your bean fields with cotton.

The market sets the prices; you adjust your behavior to make as much money as you possibly can, and production gets properly allocated, distribution is efficiently accomplished, shortages and surpluses are automatically minimized, and customers, while they might unrealistically wish for more beans and cotton at lower prices, are as happy as they can be given the constraints of reality.

The same principle would work with public relations vs. service effectiveness: companies that got the balance wrong would make less money than companies that got it right, so there'd be tremendous competitive incentive to get it right; whereas with government police...well, you know.
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by Mac84

"If a crime is being committed against me, I'll be able to tell, and I'll take whatever actions are appropriate to the situation. I am not at all confident in a stranger's ability to tell whether or not a crime is being committed against me--especially a stranger armed with lethal force and immunized against prosecution by the State."

Barak,

What if the crime is being committed "against your home"? Say an individual kicking in your front door. Don't you think it would be justified for a passing copper to stop and investigate?

That individual might be me. Maybe I left my key in the house and after considerable thought I decided that kicking in the window on the door and then replacing it was the best option.

I don't need a nervous, armed agent of the State, with special legal immunities, whose objective is to enforce the decrees of the State on an unruly populace, entering that situation.

On the other hand, an armed agent of a private protection agency whose objective was to delight me as a customer of his company so as to retain my business and stimulate word-of-mouth advertising to my friends--that would be a different story.

I understand that government cops have the power to stop and investigate something like that, and if I try to do anything about it I'll end up in prison; I would just rather they didn't.



Barak, sometimes you really make me think. At other times, just like this one, you really make me think you are living in la la land. Is there no circumstance of which you would accept the help of an LE? Current LE, not the whimsy fantasy police you dream about. No disrespect intended.



Clyde
Hunter, I'll repeat myself. It is not the size of the department, it is the lack of EXPERIENCE. Lakeville is has an approx. population of 50,000. An affluent middle size town, with virtually no crime. Compare them to places like these...

http://www.city-data.com/city/Gary-Indiana.html
http://www.city-data.com/city/Brownsville-Texas.html
http://www.city-data.com/city/Gretna-Louisiana.html
http://www.city-data.com/city/Chattanooga-Tennessee.html


... and you'll get my drift.
It ain't about the size of the city, it's about the size of the CRIME, that gives experience.
Originally Posted by hunter1960
The technology isn't being used by these shake and bake security co's. They aren't going to spend the money. Why should they spend the money, they get the business at the cheapest rate as they can.

There's no reason for them to buy the sort of technology I described: it's illegal for them to compete with the government police, so there'd be no opportunity for them to use it.

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Even the big Co's like Wackenhut and others aren't going to spend the money. The police isn't keeping them out of business, there's plenty of places that use private security, but they aren't all that.

First of all, the government police are most emphatically not "all that" either. They ignore crimes, they fail to solve cases, and they assault and kill innocent people. I can give you lots and lots of examples.

Secondly, the government absolutely does keep competition out of business. There are all sorts of things that are legal only for government cops to do; any private business that does those things has to charge higher rates than it otherwise would to counterbalance the risk of persecution by the government. And of course those forced higher rates are made even more oppressive by the fact that the government subsidizes government cops but not private ones.

Suppose the per-capita cost for government police services is G, and the per-capita cost for private police services is P.

If people using PPAs paid P, and people using government cops paid G, then the government would not be keeping competition out of the market.

But people using government cops pay only G, while people using PPAs would have to pay G + P + X, where X is the premium required to cover the risk of having PPA agents arrested for doing things that are only legal for government cops to do.

No matter how streamlined and efficient government policing can be made, G + P + X is always going to be greater than G; hence government is keeping competition out of the business with unfair and coercive business practices.

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Your answer to everything is some kind of gizmo, i guess that's the computer geek in ya.

Not everything; it's just that in this case it was a handy demonstration of how more tools and resources would be available to PPAs than to government cops, because of the voluntary/coercive dichotomy.

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You also live in this fantasy world of business -vs- Govt.

If business ever falls into league with government, we'll have Italian-style fascism.

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As i've said before, why don't you present it to your town in OK, if it's such a great deal, put your money where your mouth is. Be the first town in America to go all private. I know you won't because you've got an excuse for every reason why it won't work.

If it's done coercively on a whole-town basis, then it's essentially no different from any other coercive government decree. Especially if it's financed by tax money. The whole project would be self-defeating.
Originally Posted by BLG
Is there no circumstance of which you would accept the help of an LE?

Sure there is.

Based on past experience, I'd be nervous about it; but if for example somebody raped my wife or daughter, and I exhausted my resources without being able to find the culprit, I'd be willing to give the government a shot.
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by hunter1960
The technology isn't being used by these shake and bake security co's. They aren't going to spend the money. Why should they spend the money, they get the business at the cheapest rate as they can.

There's no reason for them to buy the sort of technology I described: it's illegal for them to compete with the government police, so there'd be no opportunity for them to use it.

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Even the big Co's like Wackenhut and others aren't going to spend the money. The police isn't keeping them out of business, there's plenty of places that use private security, but they aren't all that.

First of all, the government police are most emphatically not "all that" either. They ignore crimes, they fail to solve cases, and they assault and kill innocent people. I can give you lots and lots of examples.

Secondly, the government absolutely does keep competition out of business. There are all sorts of things that are legal only for government cops to do; any private business that does those things has to charge higher rates than it otherwise would to counterbalance the risk of persecution by the government. And of course those forced higher rates are made even more oppressive by the fact that the government subsidizes government cops but not private ones.

Suppose the per-capita cost for government police services is G, and the per-capita cost for private police services is P.

If people using PPAs paid P, and people using government cops paid G, then the government would not be keeping competition out of the market.

But people using government cops pay only G, while people using PPAs would have to pay G + P + X, where X is the premium required to cover the risk of having PPA agents arrested for doing things that are only legal for government cops to do.

No matter how streamlined and efficient government policing can be made, G + P + X is always going to be greater than G; hence government is keeping competition out of the business with unfair and coercive business practices.

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Your answer to everything is some kind of gizmo, i guess that's the computer geek in ya.

Not everything; it's just that in this case it was a handy demonstration of how more tools and resources would be available to PPAs than to government cops, because of the voluntary/coercive dichotomy.

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You also live in this fantasy world of business -vs- Govt.

If business ever falls into league with government, we'll have Italian-style fascism.

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As i've said before, why don't you present it to your town in OK, if it's such a great deal, put your money where your mouth is. Be the first town in America to go all private. I know you won't because you've got an excuse for every reason why it won't work.

If it's done coercively on a whole-town basis, then it's essentially no different from any other coercive government decree. Especially if it's financed by tax money. The whole project would be self-defeating.


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It's a cute little concept, of PPA -vs- Govt. LE, but until it's tried and tested that's all that it is a concept. If you can't sell it, it's worthless and is just a fantasy. Another Barakistan fantasy.

Besides do you really feel or believe that a PPA would give a crap if you left them as a customer. There's Co's out there now in many professions, who've been in business for years and don't care one way or the other if you take your business somewhere else.

Like they say, "one monkey, doesn't make the circus", you can find another monkey, if nothing else cheaper, and for alot of folks cheaper is better.

For someone who pisses and whines how terrible our Govt. is, you truly ought to move out of country, and live for a while in another country, or buy an island and create your own fantasy world.

Let me ask you for, for being such a Govt. hater, does your employer take on any Govt. contracted work?? If they do you ought to quit or refuse to do the work, because your Co. is doing the work of the devil, by contracting with the Govt.
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by BLG
Is there no circumstance of which you would accept the help of an LE?

Sure there is.

Based on past experience, I'd be nervous about it; but if for example somebody raped my wife or daughter, and I exhausted my resources without being able to find the culprit, I'd be willing to give the government a shot.


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Exhausted your resourses?? Who do you think you are Barak 5 0, or Barakistan CSI ??? Because you found your bicycle that someone stole from you, while you were on a college campus, Joe Friday you ain't.

If your family was harmed, it would probably be one of those ex-cons that you love so much. but they wouldn't do that since they've found Jesus, in the pen.

I'ld like to stay and chat, but i've got court this afternoon involving one of those poor ex-cons that the system sent to the pen the first time on little or no evidence. That along with the system, failing to provide the love and care for him, when he got out.
Nope, lived (and still live) in Rapid City, SD. Just in a lot different neighborhood.
At the same time if you had anything that you had to get rid of, just leave it by the sidewalk and someone would steal it. That could be handy at times.
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Besides do you really feel or believe that a PPA would give a crap if you left them as a customer.

Just me? Maybe, if it was small enough. Maybe not. But people tend to be really particular about things like their own security or the security of their family. If I found a PPA agent wandering around in my house in the middle of the night without permission (and didn't shoot him), and when I complained my PPA just sort of shrugged its shoulders and said "So what?" I'll bet I wouldn't be the only one to leave that PPA for a competitor, especially once the story got around.

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Let me ask you for, for being such a Govt. hater, does your employer take on any Govt. contracted work?? If they do you ought to quit or refuse to do the work, because your Co. is doing the work of the devil, by contracting with the Govt.

No, I don't work for the government, or for government contractors. I've turned down a number of such job opportunities.

But "work of the devil" isn't the only reason.

I'm a software developer. I like to be challenged and kept busy, working hard on problems that are almost but not quite beyond my capability to solve, along with a team of smart people who keep me accountable, match me wit for wit, and provide me with the constant opportunity to learn and teach new things.

I can find that sort of work in small, hungry, fast-moving, hard-charging private companies that are either working to protect their market share from competitors or attacking the market share held by a competitor.

I have never seen anything like that kind of environment in a government agency or a government contractor. I find instead stupid and lazy people together with an impenetrable political culture that rewards seniority and penalizes innovation.

Any company where the boss can't simply walk into a room, point, and say, "You: you're fired. Get out." isn't the kind of company I want to work for. I don't like pulling other people's dead weight.
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Exhausted your resourses?? Who do you think you are Barak 5 0, or Barakistan CSI ???

What's your issue? Are you saying that only government agents should investigate crimes? Why?
Originally Posted by hunter1960
If your family was harmed, it would probably be one of those ex-cons that you love so much. but they wouldn't do that since they've found Jesus, in the pen.

I'm sure there are a bunch of good, decent LEOs on this site who cringe when they read what you write...

Penny
I don't cringe Penny. I see that same bitternes a LOT. It comes from spending to much time in bad places with bad people, under bad circumstances. He has earned that attitude, as do many others. The guys (or gals) you see trying to learn, repent or get well, are the one's we see only at their very worst. These are biases that can never change without a change in environment. Cringe? No, I just hope they get beyond it.
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Besides do you really feel or believe that a PPA would give a crap if you left them as a customer.

Just me? Maybe, if it was small enough. Maybe not. But people tend to be really particular about things like their own security or the security of their family. If I found a PPA agent wandering around in my house in the middle of the night without permission (and didn't shoot him), and when I complained my PPA just sort of shrugged its shoulders and said "So what?" I'll bet I wouldn't be the only one to leave that PPA for a competitor, especially once the story got around.

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Let me ask you for, for being such a Govt. hater, does your employer take on any Govt. contracted work?? If they do you ought to quit or refuse to do the work, because your Co. is doing the work of the devil, by contracting with the Govt.

No, I don't work for the government, or for government contractors. I've turned down a number of such job opportunities.

But "work of the devil" isn't the only reason.

I'm a software developer. I like to be challenged and kept busy, working hard on problems that are almost but not quite beyond my capability to solve, along with a team of smart people who keep me accountable, match me wit for wit, and provide me with the constant opportunity to learn and teach new things.

I can find that sort of work in small, hungry, fast-moving, hard-charging private companies that are either working to protect their market share from competitors or attacking the market share held by a competitor.

I have never seen anything like that kind of environment in a government agency or a government contractor. I find instead stupid and lazy people together with an impenetrable political culture that rewards seniority and penalizes innovation.

Any company where the boss can't simply walk into a room, point, and say, "You: you're fired. Get out." isn't the kind of company I want to work for. I don't like pulling other people's dead weight.


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I know you don't work for the Govt. does your employer write and sell software exclusively for the Govt. DOD, DOJ, etc. or has done Govt. software contracts??? You probably couldn't pass the security clearance to do Govt. software, the FBI, CIA, DOJ, probably has files on you. smirk Remember, by the time you hear the helo's it's too late, you'll either be in custody or ?? smirk

In my business you can be fired for as much, as not supporting the proper elected candidate, Mayor, Sheriff or whatever. The same thing with receiving too many citizen complaints. I've seen people fired for having an accident in a Govt. owned veh. which resulted in no injuries to other parties, just damage to the Govt. veh.

I work for an elected official, who every four years has to kiss enough hands and shake enough babies, to convience the citizens that he's worthy, of another four years. You assume that everyone employed by the Govt. is some kind of protected and tenured employee.

My job comes up on the chopping block every four years. I am under no civil service protection, if a new Sheriff comes in and wants to clean house he can. I've been through new Sheriff's, i've had to basically reapply to the agency and show him, why i should be retained, and i am not related to anyone in this county of social or political importance.

There are many Govt. employees throughout the US, who are in the same boat. Don't assume that everyone who works for a Govt. enitity is protected and can do as they please. This maybe true at the Fed or State level, if you look at the local level, manytimes you'll find it not to be true.
Pat, I'm just glad that there are people like you and George (NHK9) and TLEE and others in law enforcement here at the 'Fire. Don't go away... okay? smile

Penny
Penny

I'd still love my crack at all 3 of them on the stand!!

Although, I had my lunch with Terry and can personally tell you what a kind, decent man he is. Not one ounce of over-powering or strut in his demeanor at all.

Pat and George would be the same, no doubt. Still would love to have my shot at 'em though.

Bob, you KNOW a jury likes a dumb ole' country boy, right?
Originally Posted by hunter1960
I know you don't work for the Govt. does your employer write and sell software exclusively for the Govt. DOD, DOJ, etc. or has done Govt. software contracts???

Of course not.

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You probably couldn't pass the security clearance to do Govt. software

I hope not. It would be embarrassing if I could.

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In my business you can be fired for as much, as not supporting the proper elected candidate, Mayor, Sheriff or whatever.

I've never seriously considered working in a government police department, so I don't know what things are like there. But I have talked to a number of folks involved with government software projects. Completely aside from my little anti-coercion fetish, none of them looked like decent places to work except one: and that project was being developed both for government use and for a private company, and the company was driving it.

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You assume that everyone employed by the Govt. is some kind of protected and tenured employee.

No, just that hiring and firing is done on the basis of politics, rather than on the basis of merit or excellence. You've confirmed that in your own words.
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Exhausted your resourses?? Who do you think you are Barak 5 0, or Barakistan CSI ???

What's your issue? Are you saying that only government agents should investigate crimes? Why?


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Because you don't have the training and resourses, to conduct a criminal investigation, to a level and degree that will end in a case that can be, presented to a Grand Jury and Jury by a Prosecutor.

The point you gave regarding rape of your daughter, there are things that must be done and done correctly on the street and in the lab, so that the case will survive in the courtroom.

Now if someone stole one of your yard elf's or pink flamingo's and you found it down the street, well you did a good job.
You might be 1 out of the 3. Yu ain't dumb and you ain't old...yet. You'll just feel that way when I'm done with ya'!! grin
I'd enjoy watching you in a courtroom, Bob. laugh

Penny
Originally Posted by isaac
Penny

I'd still love my crack at all 3 of them on the stand!!

Although, I had my lunch with Terry and can personally tell you what a kind, decent man he is. Not one ounce of over-powering or strut in his demeanor at all.

Pat and George would be the same, no doubt. Still would love to have my shot at 'em though.


See, now three or four years ago I would have taken that as a challenge. I'm betting earlier in my career you and I would have been fireworks in a courtroom. smile

I have to admit that now I have a good working relationship with most of the "big gun" defense attorneys in my area. They know that I won't bring schitt cases and I know it's nothing personal when they hammer me on the stand. I generally don't need to go to trial any more counsel.

George
Originally Posted by Barak's Womn
Originally Posted by hunter1960
If your family was harmed, it would probably be one of those ex-cons that you love so much. but they wouldn't do that since they've found Jesus, in the pen.

I'm sure there are a bunch of good, decent LEOs on this site who cringe when they read what you write...

Penny


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Have you ever spoken to the victims, that these ex-cons have harmed ?? You ought to speak to them sometime?? It's not my job to love and care for them. It's your choice to care about them, not mine.

My ability to do my job, has no bearing on how much i love and care for ex-cons. There maybe some great sucess stories, but i see those who've gotten smarter and better at crime. The citizens in my community want them arrested and sentenced for their crimes.

Some private holy roller organization was going to build a halfway house in a few counties over. One of the folks in the community stated, it would be terrible if it was built and burned down Of course the halfway house wasn't built, but that's what the citizens thought about putting those folks in their neighborhood.

I've seen those who put up the i am better now, i won't reoffend. Those are the ones who have to be watched with a closer eye. Those who steal and those who assault and rob, are the ones that you ought to speak to the victims, and see what their take on forgive and forget is.
You know Bob, I've always enjoyed being examined by a smart attorney. It's the stupid ones that make me tired. (And you know the one's I'm talking about.) Some of the most brilliant AND dull minds seem to find their way into law. It makes me wonder if there shouldn't be some type of IQ test attached to the Bar.
Originally Posted by isaac
Penny

I'd still love my crack at all 3 of them on the stand!!

Although, I had my lunch with Terry and can personally tell you what a kind, decent man he is. Not one ounce of over-powering or strut in his demeanor at all.

Pat and George would be the same, no doubt. Still would love to have my shot at 'em though.



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I guess you are just bad on cross, cause of your address, a DC suburb. I've got news for you, there's good defense attorneys here as well, as in the beltway. We've got Judges here that would look at you and say, "Where you from, boy, who's your daddy". smile
Hunter, you gotta turn loose of the anger man, it's gonna eat you up. Let's go huntin' or fishin' and leave the job for what it is...a paycheck.
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Because you don't have the training and resourses, to conduct a criminal investigation, to a level and degree that will end in a case that can be, presented to a Grand Jury and Jury by a Prosecutor.

The point you gave regarding rape of your daughter, there are things that must be done and done correctly on the street and in the lab, so that the case will survive in the courtroom.

If I can find the guy who raped my daughter on my own, without the government's help, why would I want to go anywhere near a courtroom? That'd be like tracking the biggest trophy bull you've ever seen right to the perfect shot...and then deciding to shoot a yearling calf instead.
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Because you don't have the training and resourses, to conduct a criminal investigation, to a level and degree that will end in a case that can be, presented to a Grand Jury and Jury by a Prosecutor.

The point you gave regarding rape of your daughter, there are things that must be done and done correctly on the street and in the lab, so that the case will survive in the courtroom.

If I can find the guy who raped my daughter on my own, without the government's help, why would I want to go anywhere near a courtroom? That'd be like tracking the biggest trophy bull you've ever seen right to the perfect shot...and then deciding to shoot a yearling calf instead.


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Then you'ld be in trouble, because that person has rights, he hasn't been tried by a jury of his peers. Even though you may think that this person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, he may not be.

How do you know for a fact that he is the person who committed the crime were you there?? That's the issue with civil rights, it works both ways, you as a citizen can't harm a person and neither can i.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Hunter, you gotta turn loose of the anger man, it's gonna eat you up. Let's go huntin' or fishin' and leave the job for what it is...a paycheck.


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I've already retired from one high stress job, 20 years with no ill effects, LE is a piece of cake. I don't have to leave my family as compaired to the Army, for months at a time.

I probably hunt and fish more then you, i don't have to travel out of the city to enjoy the country. smile
We've got Judges here that would look at you and say, "Where you from, boy, who's your daddy".
________________________________________-

Female, I hope. With all their teeth!!
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Then you'ld be in trouble, because that person has rights, he hasn't been tried by a jury of his peers.

Undoubtedly I'd be in trouble if the government got wind of it; but I'm sure there are all sorts of other things I'd be in trouble for if the government got wind of them, too.

If somebody raped my daughter, I'd be interested in justice. I've been in prison, and I've seen what passes for justice when you let the government handle something like that.

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Even though you may think that this person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, he may not be.

I said, "If I can find the guy who raped my daughter." If I initiate force against a guy who didn't rape my daughter, I'd expect to be dealt with accordingly; hence, I wouldn't.

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That's the issue with civil rights, it works both ways, you as a citizen can't harm a person and neither can i.

What do you mean by "can't?" Obviously you don't mean can't, because everybody knows you as an agent of the State can harm a person: that's what they give you that gun for.
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Then you'ld be in trouble, because that person has rights, he hasn't been tried by a jury of his peers.

Undoubtedly I'd be in trouble if the government got wind of it; but I'm sure there are all sorts of other things I'd be in trouble for if the government got wind of them, too.

If somebody raped my daughter, I'd be interested in justice. I've been in prison, and I've seen what passes for justice when you let the government handle something like that.

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Even though you may think that this person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, he may not be.

I said, "If I can find the guy who raped my daughter." If I initiate force against a guy who didn't rape my daughter, I'd expect to be dealt with accordingly; hence, I wouldn't.

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That's the issue with civil rights, it works both ways, you as a citizen can't harm a person and neither can i.

What do you mean by "can't?" Obviously you don't mean can't, because everybody knows you as an agent of the State can harm a person: that's what they give you that gun for.


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I don't like using this subject, rape of your daughter, i have children too.

I don't think the suspect is going to admit to you, that he committed the crime, without physical force or physical evidence. I can't use physical force, but i can use physical evidence.

If you were to use physical justice against the suspect, then your no different then those who are locked up in prison. They did what they did for a reason also.

My gun is for the protection of myself and others, not a tool of intimidation.

I know that you probably don't know the difference, nor probably care, but i don't work for a Police Dept. I work for an elected Sheriff, my jurisdiction is different then that of a City Police Officer, i have jurisdiction anywhere within the boundries of the county.

We're not going to agree on Govt. and that's a fact. If and when or ever, aspects of the Govt. ie. LE, go private it'ld be interesting to see, but i doubt that you or i would be alive to see it.
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Exhausted your resourses?? Who do you think you are Barak 5 0, or Barakistan CSI ???

What's your issue? Are you saying that only government agents should investigate crimes? Why?


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Because you don't have the training and resourses, to conduct a criminal investigation, to a level and degree that will end in a case that can be, presented to a Grand Jury and Jury by a Prosecutor.

The point you gave regarding rape of your daughter, there are things that must be done and done correctly on the street and in the lab, so that the case will survive in the courtroom.

Now if someone stole one of your yard elf's or pink flamingo's and you found it down the street, well you did a good job.


Easy now there� My cohorts and I have made an awful lot of cases resulting in convictions ranging from Mickey Mouse stuff we�d rather not bother with to sophisticated fraud schemes that we enjoyed working on. All without any secret squirrel gov. training. It ain�t rocket science.
Originally Posted by billhilly
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by hunter1960
Exhausted your resourses?? Who do you think you are Barak 5 0, or Barakistan CSI ???

What's your issue? Are you saying that only government agents should investigate crimes? Why?


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Because you don't have the training and resourses, to conduct a criminal investigation, to a level and degree that will end in a case that can be, presented to a Grand Jury and Jury by a Prosecutor.

The point you gave regarding rape of your daughter, there are things that must be done and done correctly on the street and in the lab, so that the case will survive in the courtroom.

Now if someone stole one of your yard elf's or pink flamingo's and you found it down the street, well you did a good job.


Easy now there� My cohorts and I have made an awful lot of cases resulting in convictions ranging from Mickey Mouse stuff we�d rather not bother with to sophisticated fraud schemes that we enjoyed working on. All without any secret squirrel gov. training. It ain�t rocket science.


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I didn't say it was rocket science, we were talking about a rape case. I've made rape cases without physical evidence, but if i had physical evidence, it has to be handled and documented in a manner so as not to destroy or contaminate that evidence.

I rely upon others routinely, DA's office, State Investigators office (TBI), as far as advise on how to proceed on an issue. I don't have all the answers and never claimed to. What do you do?
I'm a corporate security manager for a large "financial istitution". We deal mainly with banking and motgage fraud.
You've been busy, my friend!!
Originally Posted by billhilly
I'm a corporate security manager for a large "financial istitution". We deal mainly with banking and motgage fraud.


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That's right, you mentioned that before.
Ha! No kidding. Unfortunately, financial crime skews about the same as any other kind of theft from a business. 85%-15% it�s mostly inside stuff.
All private security isn�t the �mall ninja, rent-a-cop� type. We�ve got contract uniformed security in all our corp. sites and some branches but the in house guys behind the scenes might surprise you. Quite a few retired feds.
Originally Posted by billhilly
All private security isn�t the �mall ninja, rent-a-cop� type. We�ve got contract uniformed security in all our corp. sites and some branches but the in house guys behind the scenes might surprise you. Quite a few retired feds.

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I know a couple of retired FBI agents, that work for some of the major banks here in Mid. TN.
The transition from gov. cop to corp. security is interesting to watch. Most guys get it pretty quickly while others hang up for some reason. The market forces that Barak talks about are indeed a factor. Guys who�ve worked for a political dept (sheriff) sometimes get it quicker.
The �customer service� issues are sometimes hard to rationalize I suppose.

I always try to relate it to the crook you catch that the judge lets go. You caught him fair and square but for whatever reason, the judge turns him loose. Why lose any sleep over it? You did your part. Same thing when you build or are building a case and run into corp. politics. MD won�t let you hammer an SVP in an interview? Call center manager doesn�t rate the same consideration as last month�s top salesman? Blow it off. They pay you for the services they want you to perform, not to enforce your idea of justice or fairness.

I hate working fraud. Give me an assault, burglary, theft any old day. Fraud cases suck but there is sure a lot of it going on. kwg
I look at them like puzzels.
While I am still I a public LEO, I know your side. My jurisdiction contains several multi-billion (with a B) corporations and anybody who thinks $$$ doesn't come first is a fool.
Originally Posted by NH K9
Originally Posted by isaac
Penny

I'd still love my crack at all 3 of them on the stand!!

Although, I had my lunch with Terry and can personally tell you what a kind, decent man he is. Not one ounce of over-powering or strut in his demeanor at all.

Pat and George would be the same, no doubt. Still would love to have my shot at 'em though.


See, now three or four years ago I would have taken that as a challenge. I'm betting earlier in my career you and I would have been fireworks in a courtroom. smile

I have to admit that now I have a good working relationship with most of the "big gun" defense attorneys in my area. They know that I won't bring schitt cases and I know it's nothing personal when they hammer me on the stand. I generally don't need to go to trial any more counsel.

George


Where I work, cops are usually witnesses for the defense. Unwittingly of course. We do our best to try cases without putting them on the stand.
No offense Jim, but where I work, prosecutors are usually witnesses for the defense. Unwittingly of course. We do our best to not get on the stand period.
Originally Posted by hunter1960
I don't like using this subject, rape of your daughter, i have children too.

Yeah, but it's a good example of a crime where the identity of the culprit is frequently easily known.

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I don't think the suspect is going to admit to you, that he committed the crime, without physical force or physical evidence.

I don't care whether he admits it or not.

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I can't use physical force, but i can use physical evidence.

Sure you can use physical force. If the wrong people find out about it, you might lose your job and/or the suspect might walk; but you can do it.

Situation's the same with me--although if I get caught I probably go to prison, rather than just losing my job.

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If you were to use physical justice against the suspect, then your no different then those who are locked up in prison. They did what they did for a reason also.

I've known for years and years that I'm no different from people who are locked up in prison. I suspect that if you spent time in prison you'd discover that you're no different either. For some people that's a hard pill to swallow.

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My gun is for the protection of myself and others, not a tool of intimidation.

But it protects you and others by hurting people--or at least threatening to hurt them.

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If and when or ever, aspects of the Govt. ie. LE, go private it'ld be interesting to see, but i doubt that you or i would be alive to see it.

You could be right, but I'm not convinced. I think there are a couple of different possible paths to privatized LE that are at least moderately plausible. Both of them would be pretty quick, once they got going.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
While I am still I a public LEO, I know your side. My jurisdiction contains several multi-billion (with a B) corporations and anybody who thinks $$$ doesn't come first is a fool.


You got that right. The city cops where I have my office (and 1,000,000+ sq ft of buildings are extremely helpful. We had a rash of auto thefts a while back in the DFW area and one of the Sgt's came by and gave me one of their radios so we could skip dispatch and call field units if we saw something hinkey. They treat us good and show up almost before we call them.

Of course we also let the SWAT nazis play cops&robbers in some of our cube farms once a year and are big participants and donors for all sorts of their community relations stuff. I don�t get that level of service in burb where I live.
Me either. On the "street" level everyone is equal. I don't care if you're Elvis, you break the law, your'e going to jail. But when it come to things that might effect the nations economy.....
Ha! Yeah, as a �corporate citizen�, I get invited to all the cool city functions and preferential treatment. As Kevin from Plano, I don�t get squat.
You know, we try to treat everybody the same. But when your boss gets a call from the gov or presidents office, things change. Just a fact.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Me either. On the "street" level everyone is equal. I don't care if you're Elvis, you break the law, your'e going to jail. But when it come to things that might effect the nations economy.....


Bullschit, and you know it.

Ask Carmelo Anthony. Ask Pac-Man Jones. Ask O.J. Simpson.

Originally Posted by VAnimrod
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Me either. On the "street" level everyone is equal. I don't care if you're Elvis, you break the law, your'e going to jail. But when it come to things that might effect the nations economy.....


Bullschit, and you know it.

Ask Carmelo Anthony. Ask Pac-Man Jones. Ask O.J. Simpson.



Bullschit yourself. The guys at street level did just what they were supposed to do. Things then get muddied by money, media and the system.
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