I sorta agree with this article after hunting with my new .28 and .410 bore side by sides.






GOING BIG WITH SMALL GAUGES

By Chris Batha

Great Britain’s Gun Barrel Proof Act of 1868 established the standard for shotgun bores using one pound of lead divided into equal-weight balls—the diameter of one of the balls becoming the gauge. For example, the 12-gauge standard was determined by dividing a pound of lead into 12 equal balls, each measuring .729″ in diameter. The 16 gauge was determined by dividing a pound of lead into 16 balls, each measuring .663″. And so on.

This standard resulted in the gauges we know today: 10, 12, 16, 20, 28 and .410. (The .410 is actually the bore diameter and is the equivalent of a 67.62 gauge.) During the Victorian period there were several other gauges, including the 14, 24 and 32. (The 24 and 32 gauges remain popular in Europe for shooting small birds, and guns in these gauges are still made in Italy, Belgium and Germany.)

Lately there has been a resurgence in the popularity of small gauges among fine-gun enthusiasts and collectors, and now several bespoke makers are being commissioned to build these for discerning clients.

Most everyone can appreciate the weight and handling of small-gauge guns—guns that, on a true scaled frame, weigh from 6 pounds 2 ounces to 6 pounds 10 ounces in a side by side and 6 pounds 8 ounces to 7 pounds in an over/under. These lighter guns combined with smaller cartridges and lighter loads are well suited to upland hunters who “walk a lot and shoot a little.”

Many shooters I have spoken with have described their introductions to the sport being with a small gauge—typically a .410, 28 or 20. Those first shooting days often make an impression that matures into a lingering fondness for small-gauge guns.

That said, the .410 has developed a reputation for being the perfect gun for introducing a youngster to shooting; but nothing could be further from the truth. Its light weight combined with the wrong choice of cartridge can create excessive recoil, and the marginal patterns it produces can result in discouraging misses. Far better to start a beginner with a 28- or 20-gauge with light loads.

Small-bores are lighter and offer swifter handling.
During my work instructing, organizing hunts and doing gun-fittings, I have found several fathers, sons and daughters who still have the family “starter shotgun” that has been passed down through several generations. My “starter shotgun” was a bolt-action 9mm “Garden Gun.” In the UK these guns were sold for shooting small pests on large country estates and in gardens. Not having been “to the manor born,” I used mine to stalk a variety of vermin; but I rarely took a wing shot, as cartridges were too scarce and expensive to risk wasting on a miss.

As we grow up, we tend to leave behind the small gauges and graduate to “big boy” guns like the 12. This is true especially for those who get into skeet, trap and sporting clays. When it comes to hunting, however, the 12 can be too much for anything other than waterfowl and pheasants. The weight of a 12-gauge plus a pocketful of 1¼-oz loads can seem to increase incrementally throughout the day. That is why many upland hunters either choose European-style side-by-side game guns, which average a pound or so lighter than standard over/unders, or opt for sub-gauges, which I define as anything smaller than a 12.

I will admit to being biased in my preference for the 16 gauge. Firing a 1-oz load in a 16-bore, the shot seems to pattern better and hit harder than it has the right to. Furthermore, the 16 sits perfectly between the 12 and 20—and, for me, it earns its place in the small gauges because its weight, balance and lively handling match the 20 while delivering the knockdown power of the 12. Which is why it has long been said that the 16 “carries like a 20 and hits like a 12.”

The Continentals have always embraced the small gauges, and the current resurgence in interest has many gunmakers making small-gauge guns again. It also is becoming easier to find cartridges for rarer gauges like the .32. Ammo maker RST produces smallbore cartridges in 24, 28 and 32 gauge, as does Fiocchi and Trust.

I have several clients who now use their 12-gauge guns with heavy loads only for really tall pheasants—birds in excess of 40 yards—and are opting for 20- and 28-bore guns for driven grouse and partridge in the UK and smaller upland birds in the US. Most say their decision to go with smaller gauges is based on weight, handling and the fact that lighter loads control recoil (some use only ¾ oz for pheasants up to 40 yards). Furthermore, small-bores are lighter and offer swifter handling.

Simple ballistics confirms that, regardless of gauge, the load used must have enough pellets of the correct size and number to create the pattern density to kill the quarry cleanly at the distance it is being shot. The good news for small-gauge enthusiasts is that, with the upsurge in popularity of sub-gauges, cartridge companies are offering greater choices in loads. Hull Cartridge Company, for example, is making a 11⁄16-oz 16-gauge load. This cartridge combines the rare qualities of not knocking out your fillings while knocking the stuffing out of birds.

My favorite upland gun is a Connecticut Shotgun A-10 28-gauge with 32″ barrels. I have been using it for several years, and there is something special about putting a ¾-oz cartridge not much bigger than a cigarette into the chamber of a 6-pound 28-gauge and folding a flushing bird from the sky. It just seems to reinforce the old saying that small gauges are for gentlemen.

I plan on picking up a 28 gauge on the near future for ptramigan and grouse hunting. I think the 28 gauge would be a great gauge for that. Now I just need to decide barrel length, 26" or 28".

The small gauges are certainly killers with the right loads. An acquaintance of my brother has 2 young daughters that have killed many birds, including a swan and turkey with a .410 loaded with TSS handloads.

I bought a Franchi AL48 28ga sometime in the late 90's. Shot the entire season of sporting clays and skeet with that shotgun. I've taken a bunch of doves, ruffed and sharp tailed grouse, and huns with it. The 1st fall I owned it I also shot about a dozen pheasants and 3 BIG Canada geese with Bismuth during the early season. I still carry that AL48 28 for ruffed grouse, I can't get on target more quickly with anything else. For open country sharpies, huns, and ringnecks is pretty much 1oz 2 3/4" 20ga from a Beretta 302, 303, 391 autoloader or 26" 626 SxS. I shoot our sporting clays and skeet league w/20's for the most part as well.

About the only time a 12ga is even a consideration anymore is very late season when the birds have denser feathers and shots are normally longer. Barring some sort of resurgence of a CRP/large-scale habitat program, I likely have a several lifetime supply of 12ga ammo as I just don't use them much anymore.

I had a Browning 410 pump I used to quail hunt. Once I became decent with it, I almost couldn’t miss with a 12 gauge.

I've not hunted with a 410, but have extensively with a 28. It's rare that I ever felt hampered when I was upland hunting with a 28. Today with some of the heavier than lead, non toxic options, even the 410 can be deadly on game which previously demanded large bores and large volumes of shot. A 5 1/2 pound 28 O/U is a joy in the field. I am on my second Beretta 686 28 gauge and for a while had an SKB SxS 28. I'll not be without a 28 until I'm too old to hunt or shoot.

I shoot doves with 410, 28 and 20 ga. Occasionally I’ll break out a 16 ga for doves. For pheasant the 16 and 12 ga get most of the duty. But on game farms, I’ll use a 20 ga on pheasant.
I sure find the 28 ga an excellent choice for doves.
Most of my shotguns are over under 28” barrels but also some auto loaders with 26” barrels

I bet that Ptarmigan and the 28 are made for each other.

If you use a 410 a lot, you just about need to be a Reloader

Chris Batha would know. This new .410 turkey stuff has me caught my interest.

About the only use I have for a 12 gauge any longer is on the trap and skeet ranges. I very seldom ever use anything but a 28 gauge for all bird hunting, the older I get, the less weight I want to carry around! Even with Bismuth loads in a 28 gauge, they kill pheasant size birds very well, in my opinion.

Good article by Chris Batha at the top. Good shooting!

Brtitman

ditto for a .28

I kill just as many doves with a 28 ga as I do with a 12 ga. Just as far too. And it’s much more fun. 🤠

I've owned at least one 28 since 1981. I have only ever shot wild bird on the northern prairie. The gauge is for real and usually stuns first time shooters with its lethality. The biggest mistake I've seen with it is the tendency to cram a 20 or 16 load into it. It is just plain deadly with 3/4 oz. I love 7s and my current squeeze is an AyA #2. ;-{>8

They really are. I love chasing ptarmigan but don't get to go nearly as often as I'd like. I used my first 28 when I lived in the northwest, to take a truckload of pheasants, quail, chukars and huns.

Last year my Son and I decided we should only use .410s. We have done very well and had more fun. This spring we used them for turkeys also.

Clays yes.

Hunting no.

I have a Remington 1100 sporting 28. Very effective on blue quail. Wife uses it. Ammo is a little expensive but it’s hard to put a value on all the fun she has with it. I usually use a 20 gauge with elchepo shells. The 28 seems to perform better but I buy AA or Fiochio shells for it. Hasbeen

I picked up a 5lb. 6oz. 20ga. O/U and used it a few times last season for wild Neb. pheasants. I can tell you that my 1oz. reloads of nickle 5 1/5's @ 1300fps makes pheasants quite dead and is a dream to carry!

I'm have more wads on order from Ballistic Products as we speak! I also have a H&R Topper in 410 that I swear I'm gonna use this year!

Pheasants in a crock pot for 6-7 hours with cream of mushroom soup served over rice is one of my families favorite dinners.

Elk Country

Bought my first 28 ga. a week ago. Hopefully be able to shoot it this weekend. Scheel's had a CZ Supreme Field O/U marked $100 off and couldn't pass it up.

My first shotgun was a H&R single shot 410, my dad, a non-hunter bought for me when I was about 14. I haven’t hunted with one since though roamed (pre driver’s-license days) the countryside back then with friends and the little BB-pusher, aiming for the country bridges and the pigeons which would flush out with our ruckus above. Had to be close and precise even with the 3”, 3/4 oz loads but the puff of feathers was telling.

But, really, really enjoyed the 28 in an AyA double on pointed pheasants decades later. Really could not discern differences between that famously described “square load” of the 28 and the 1 oz 20 ga load inside, say, 25-30 yards and over a dog.

Every serious bird-hunter, shotgunner should give the 28 a whirl.

The only time I have found a larger gauge matters is wild birds when the winds gets up. Then it's #6s for pheasants and having a few more in the 20 gauge shell is nice. Otherwise, 28 gauge all day long. Luckly, I have the choice of either barrel set. 20 in the morning and 28 in the afternoon?

I really do and really don't want to shoot someone's Parker Reproduction someday. I have a stunning Beretta 417 20Ga that doesn't shoot where I'm looking.

I have another 28 huge Parker Repro with a pistol grip that I have shot far more and it's just plane deadly. The one above is choked Quail 1/2 the other one is full and mod and it's amazing how far birds fall to it. If I remembered there was a 2nd trigger consistently then I'm sure they would kill even more birds.

The 12 just seems like it is overkill for so much. 16 is a little better, but so often it is built on a 12ga frame.
I like the 20 unless I am duck hunting, or out where the pheasants flush far off ahead of me or the dove are staying high & far. I'm sure a 28 would work fine most of the time too.

O/U .410 would be pretty fun. Wouldn’t mine a RAR version of one.

You raise a good point. I see absolutely no point in getting a 28 or 20 gauge built on a 20-frame or a 12-frame respectively which is often the case; admittedly, this really narrows your choices. The AyA I had in a 28 was frame-appropriate at about 5.5 lbs IIRC — a svelte wand to wave about, point and shoot. Conversely, I had a handsome Beretta 471 Silver Hawk 20-ga., whose only real fault in my eyes was it was a bit “thick” for my tastes at close to 6.5 lbs.

Edit: sorry Tyrone. Thought you brought up the gauge-to-weight issue. Age has a way of chipping away around your edges; that is, if! you are lucky. 😮🙂

Very neat article. I started hunting with a 12 because that is all I had years ago in south Florida for quail and doves. MANY (as in close to 30 I'm sorry to say), I picked up Upland hunting again and quickly learned the beauty of the 28 bore. I did get myself a nice 20, figuring to "fill the gap" ( as loonies do), so I had a 12, 20 & 28 and I really should have stuck with just the 28. About the only way I'd use a 12, would be for waterfowl or WILD pheasant. Nowadays in Georgia where I hunt pheasant, quail and Chukar (all put), the 28 is perfect, so I finally took the plunge and got myself a semi-decent 28, a Fausti

Beautiful, Pugs!

Last year was my 6th year with 20ga only.

So far, whether waterfowl or pheasant, I have not felt 'undergunned'.

When I am out for late season pheasants, I'll put a #4 Hevi-Shot in the left barrel and a nickel-plated lead #4 in the right. Ducks over decoys get #6 HS.

The heavier-than-lead shot makes a big difference on wild birds.

I consider the 28 the sports car of shotguns.

I usually shoot my 28 gauge o/u when hunting chukar or pheasants (preserve pheasants, that is). Winchester makes a nice 1.0 ounce load in #6 shot. What more could you need?

Last year I shot 10 straight chukars with 3/4 ounce of #8 and IC choke in the first barrel and 1.0 oz. #6 and Modified choke in the second. Eight were one shot kills. Only one of the others actually needed the second barrel.

Many skeet shooters find they shoot just as well with a 20 or 28 as with a 12. Trap and Sporting Clays shooters not so much.

The .410 is in another league, much more difficult.

I learned to hunt with a model 24 .22lr/.410ga. Single shot. I could flush two birds and kill em both in different directions. It was quick enough, though about the weight of a single shot 12ga, (iirc). It was enough for the job. I've never used a 16ga, or .28ga. Rarely used a 20ga.
I can and do, reliability take deer, small game or birds with. 410 or 12ga. No reservations, they both work well enough for clean ethical kills.

I was hoping to lure Jorge out with his new Fausti. Thanks to Pugs, too!

Now you're going to make me take a real picture of my shotgun! that was off their website! Here's the real deal:

I don't have much experience with the small gauge shotguns, but I do know that if one can shoot OK and picks their shots a 28 will kill ducks...

Pretty hunk of stump on that.

So how much do you want for it?

Pat Powell is deadly with a 410.

Hell, Pat is deadly just throwing the shell, Doesn't even need the shotgun.

I wouldn't mind an over and under 28 gauge. That would nice.

Some of you fugkers might want to keep the term "bird hunter" in context.

Im not a duck hunter, but over decoys with some of the “non-leaded” “heavies”, without a doubt.

Jorgel, looks to be a beautiful piece.

ETA: Pugs,..also beautiful.

WOT

What size shot? Do you only shoot those that get up over a dog?

410 slugs for deer?

the first time i ever went bird hunting was up by mule shoe, on my great uncle's farm. I was using a 410 and killed two hens and one rooster. Uncle Van was not happy about me killing the the hens but i was 8 and he let it slide.

i'm not bad on birds, but can't shoot skeet for shiit.

Use both a 28 and a 410 in addition to my LC 20 ga. The 28 is fine for me...the 410 took some getting used to. 😏

I kill the crap outta clay birds and pigeon birds with my 410.

Its probably my favorite shotgun.

Shotguns and birds; gauge doesn't matter as much as fit IMO. If it fits you properly you can take most any birds and most other game with any gauge. That would include pigs with a .410...even on the fly.

Any of you fellas out there that reload shotshells, can do wonders for a 12 by loading 20 ga loads in it. Yeah, they make 7/8th oz shot cups for the 12 and if your gun patterned well with regular loads you'll be somewhat surprised at how well those light loads work.

I went through my 28 gauge phase with both a SxS and an O/U some years ago and just did not see what they offered that my 20's (SxS's) didn't so down the road they went.

That is correct. Only problem with them is cost. They cost me as much as 12ga. Sabots. (They never seem to go on sale, either. ) they are also a bit harder to find.

For you 410 users — what are the situations in which you use it? 2 1/2” or 3” shells? What make, type of guns? Curious. Thanks.

Model 24 savage. .22lr/.410 2&1/2. Never needed more.

My buddy tubed a 12ga 525 to .410 and made the mistake of letting me shoot it. The first laugh is the flinch from recoil, which seem more like you just popped a primer. The second laugh is busting clays with it.

Guilty...

I shoot the 7/8’s BP (brand) load. I patterned about 5 different loads and it was the best by a mile.

https://www.aerostaroutdoors.com/product/competition-one-12ga-78oz-8-shot-1160-fps-250-rds/

My favorite is a Ugartechea 28 SxS that I got in Eibar, Spain from Sr. Ugartechea himself. Handles like a conductor's baton. Magic.

Saw this in person. Beatiful gun, Jorge!

[/quote]

Love my Spanish Pedro Gorosabel sxs in 20 ga. also from Eibar.

Nice!

A 20 choked mod over full for wild upland birds.

12 for all things steel required.

28 and .410 are for clays, rabbits and placed birds.

YMMV.

I dont know why it is a big mistake.....the Winchester 1 oz load or the Fiocchi golden pheasant 7/8 oz loads with 6 shot just plain hammer wild ringnecks


but probably the perfect pheasant killer is the 16 gauge

I'm not familiar with this acronym.

What birds are there to hunt in south Texas?

dove, ducks and quail.

Pffffttt. Those ain't birds.

I kinda like a 16ga. Many are built in nice little 20ga frames. Shells can be a bitch. More so than 28ga it seems.

28, 16, 20..........it don’t really matter. An ounce of #6’s at 1200 is an ounce of #6’s at 1200. Sure, the shot column is a bit different, but if you can shoot, it ain’t gonna matter.

Days gone by...

Used to, you could drive across the Mexican border with a Browning Superposed Superlight and not worry about having it confiscated. (As long as you traveled in numbers) A two hour drive to the San Fernando Valley put you into some of the best White Wing shooting a hunter could imagine. It was common to shoot a case of shells a day, shooting 2 1/2 hours in the mornings and another 2 1/2 hours evenings.

Shooting was intense enough that you'd regret grabbing your shotgun by the barrel, as you'd quickly pull away with a scalded hand.

Three days of hunting could net you enough birds to last until the following year, or more specifically roughly 600 birds, cleaned and frozen in packages of 12 each. Some years we'd rent a banquet hall and host a huge dove dinner, with dove being cooked every way imaginable.

Over a fondly remembered ten-year period I literally wore out a Belgian O/U .410. These were days I'd certainly like to re-live if an opportunity were to ever arise.

Wot= What? , but never mind I figured it out.

I could dove hunt all day....

Hard to beat when they are really flying.

Dove hunting (which I love) is not bird hunting. It's an entirely different type of shooting. Same for ducks (which I hate). The shooters are in fixed positions and the only weight concerns usually end up with the shooter longing for a HEAVIER gun, as opposed to lighter.

The beauty of the .410 and 28's are that they can be made ultra light so a BIRD hunter carries less tonnage throughout the day. When a person is BIRD hunting they can and will cover 5-10 (or more) miles a day. This is where light guns can really shine.

The 28 makes a lot of sense if a guy can shoot it and is walking long distances that would allow ones arms to notice an ounce or two. But the .410? I've met people that claim they can slay birds all day with one, but I've yet to witness it.

At the end of the day, if you're BIRD hunting, it's going to be next to impossible to beat a 20 gauge on a 20 gauge frame. Boutique and nostalgia aside.

I’d agree with that.

My dove hunting is a bit more pocket hunting rather than the long sits. I’d love a field full of sunflowers. Birds and dogs and lots of walking is a far cry from a portable stool.

The absolute best hunt I ever had was an English pheasant hunt. Pen raised birds, yeah they suck. This guys place stretched for miles. Breakfast was champagne and ham biscuits on the tailgate of a Model T, lunch was a spread set up out in the field with linens and the whole nine yards. Followed with scotch I’d never heard of that probabaly cost more than my shotgun. Not to mention the neckties and fellas that looked like they’d stepped out of a Beretta advertisement.


Way outta my league, but I did meet my first billionaire...

That type of hunt has zero appeal to me.

I once met the VP of Halliburton at the range though. That was pretty cool.

Truth. Unreal. You drunk?

I could pose that very same question.

Feel free to counter whatever it is you disagree with.

We (Pugs, Hatari and myself) easily put some mileage during our bird hunts in Georgia. All things being equal, a 20 might be better, but I definitively do better with my 28 SXS that I do with my 20ga O/U, then again it could be because I prefer the SXS and so do those guys...

I like this quote from an old bird hunter: "If God meant for us to shoot over/unders, our eyes would be arranged that way."

You guys should add DeFlave for the foursome.

Yep!

Crap, why didnt someone tell me, Neal. Col Travis was right.
Freaking phone got me on the rongthread.

20 ga. Low base 7.5s.

410's are perfect for bullfrogs. It's a lot harder to hit them with a S/S though.

Say it ain’t so!

I used a auto 5 20 with imp cyl, low base Rem dove 6s or Rios.

Whoa. That is serious perfection.

None of jag’s posts make any sense.

I think we need to define “mileage.”

Also, a planted bird ain’t a bird.

I love bird hunting. Dove, Huns, quail, pheasant, grouse, ducks...love it all. I’d much rather do a Sept cast and blast than sit in a fuggin’ tree all day waiting for a deer to walk by.

Anyway, I enjoy shooting different shotguns. Picked up a little Spanish 16ga SxS last year for less than $200. I love it. Wouldn’t mind a RBL in the same gauge. Have a 20ga A5 that I like as well. A couple 12 auto loaders see some time.

Hunting, unless your a midget or Shaq, I think it’s 90+% skill.

Just to be clear, I miss a lot. Lol.

Even calling it a “hunt” is a pretty good stretch. More like edible clay shooting.

My buddy gets a kick outta going to release sights and getting a limit without taking his shotgun out of the truck.

His meathead lab just snatches the birds and retrieves them. Fat birds waddle away and struggle to fly.

Whatever. It’s all fun.

20 gauge auto makes the most sense as a wild bird gun in 2019. Nothing else even comes close from a practical standpoint.

My wife has one of them, but I didn't let her meet Sr. Ugartechea. ;-{>8

I’ve got kind of a thing fore small bore doubles. They make me woody.

That is a nice mess of birds, Tex!

Thanks 00.

Blanket nonsense, duck hater. You've never tried wading up to chest deep to jump shoot divers or black ducks in a salt marsh in fall through deep winter, or creeping through an inner city bay along a seawall for brant, or along a thick swamp or a creek in a wooded area to get close enough to bash teal or woodies, I take it. How about sculling geese and other birds in deep winter in the salt and ice in a stiff current? Fixed positions for that kind of duck hunting? Nope.

Kamo,

I have spot and stalked ducks. But I think it's fair to say a duck shotgun is very different from an ideal bird gun.

And yes I hate ducks.

Truer words...

I think places like that make a lot of sense for a lot of people in a lot of parts of the country. Simply because it may be the only local place they can get into those types of birds.

But I knew a guy in MT that couldn't find birds to save his life and would go pay to hunt one of those places. And he LIVED on the Hi-Line.

That's just flat stupid.

I hunt pheasants almost exclusively and usually walk long and hard. Add a couple four-pound birds to your vest,..or three, over the last couple of miles of uneven ground, not to mention approaching the seventh decade of life, and it explains why my go-to now is a 5.5 pound Benelli Ultralight 20.

12’s and ‘06’s are things of the past...Hornady has a new shotshell coming out,


30 ga. Creedmoor.

Nice tailgate, jag!

Ruined what could have been a decent pointer.

Maybe. I doubt it though. He’s not a pointer guy anyway.


I agree about the auto 20ga. The old 1100 LT 20’s were great shotguns. Tons of great autos on the market today though.

I like to try that Beretta A400 28...

Breast, throw into a pot of pinto beans. Cook several hours. Yummy good.
(Stop cooking coots!!) Stick with Mallards, Redheads, & Teal.

Geese. breast, tenderize using tenderizing hammer. Chicken fry, using egg and flour. (Adding cornmeal to flour works also. Stir fry veggies, onions, zucchini, & mushrooms, adding soy sauce & butter.

Sidebar: You'll probably get lucky on these nights.

"The 28 makes a lot of sense if a guy can shoot it and is walking long distances that would allow ones arms to notice an ounce or two. But the .410? I've met people that claim they can slay birds all day with one, but I've yet to witness it. "
I learned to shoot with the model 24. Pheasants, quail, rabbits, squirrels, it didn't matter. If you can't hunt all day with a .410ga and walking fields, there's something wrong with you. I started carrying a gun as all kids in my family, at 13. Before that, I was the dog flushing game. You couldn't keep me from hunting with my family.
Filling your quota for day is not difficult with a .22lr/.410ga.
One of my young cousins has the savage now, as he learns how to hunt. Sooner or later, I will have another one of my own, to pass down.

Not deflave but Let’s see some pics of dead wild birds from your 410 from the last 5 years.

Not doubting plenty of kids or old timers have killed about everything with a 410 back in the day but that a lot different then killing wild birds all season long.

If you're going to lower yourself, might as well do it for the Campfire.....

Yep, or chasing blue quail over desert sand where you sink in a couple inches each step. This looks solid because it puckered up after a sprinkle.

nearest shell

Soft ground makes for hard running after blue quail at my age and missing part of one lung. Note the leatherman - thats a big track.

Must be nice to be perfect... That said, grew up in South Florida where dove and quail hunting was a 15 minute drive from the house. No dog, just a few of us "walking up" the quail, or laying in ambush by a tree line for doves. Fas forward 35 yers later, where I find myself hunting with GREAT friends and posted by Hatari and his lovely wife and beautiful home. Besides the camaraderie, there is absolutely ZERO difference that I can tell, at least on quail, between wild and the "unpure" "put birds". We like our circle of friends, have a LOT of fun and have nothing to prove...

Youre a very blessed man, jorge.

I wish i could get my Babe on some bobwhites. She'd think she had died and gone to Heaven. Sometimes sneak7ng forward and pointing 15 times over 200 yards as the blue bastids are hauling ass maybe 50-100 yards ahead as she is trying to gain on them without flushing them. They are not gentlemens birds.

Like many kids around here I started with a single shot 410, shooting at doves at age 4, emphasis on shooting at. For three years I shot probably 4-6 boxes a season and each year killed 1 dove on the wing, always got a few on tree limbs and fence wires.
At age 7 I got upgraded to a single shot 20ga and what a difference. I was killing 8-10 birds a box in no time, all flyers.
I know gun fit had almost nothing to do with it as both guns were man sized and I was a runt. My boy is a runt and he’ll start on a 20 or if he’s lucky a 28, we aren’t wasting time and craploads of money on expensive 410 shells. 410s are terrible guns for kids to learn wingshooting on end of story.

The 28 is a real shotgun plain and simple, I don’t currently have one but have shot several extensively on doves and quail and can discern almost no difference in effectiveness between it and a 20. I’ve never had any trouble killing grouse, pheasants, ducks, or turkeys with a 20 either, shoot good shells and center the bird in the pattern and stuff dies.

Folks act like shotgunning is some kind of witchcraft or vudoo but it’s really pretty simple. Easiest way to figure it out is to quit talking about chokes and fitted cases and scotch and go burn some shells on clays and real birds.

Yes.

5.5lbs range in an auto 20 gauge is pretty much nirvana.

Like I said.

I've yet to witness it.

I don't know if this is directed at me or not, but when I talk about bird hunting I'm not disparaging other types of hunts.

I'm simply stating what is and isn't.

I lock them pigeons in the barn and HUNT them with my 410.


They still get away once in a while.

Shockwave is more sporting.

Jeebus.....thats a good idea.

Truth. 5 lbs would be better.

The A400’s are undoubtedly elegant-looking semi-auto’s but like most gas-operated guns are relatively heavy and complicated machinery compared to the inertia-driven gun so “that” 28 is heavier than a 20 Montefeltro or Ultralight Ben. That’s fine if one doesn’t care and just wants to make the trade-off to shoot the 28 in the Beretta.

When it gets down to stripping and cleaning that A400 compared to a Benelli it’s no contest in favor of the Ben plus if you happen to be one of the ten percent lefty’s (and you want to stay with a “righty” for resale) you need a certified Beretta ‘Smith to reverse that safety. With the Benelli, you could be a half-blind Red Green and still reverse it with a small punch and tack hammer in about 2 minutes.

My Benelli Montefeltro Silver 20 ga with the 26” bbl is just a bit over that, but just about perfect for me. And it’s a bird killing machine!

Glad to hear you say that George as i was interested in selling my m90 to that guy who posted begging for one so i could get one of those Berettas. I replied to his post then and pmd him. Nothing.


Glad to hear that, Neal. I had hell with my m90 until i got stainless Wolff springs.

I (personally) think the Monte is about perfect when you consider cost.

The Franchi Affinity is a real sleeper also. Lot of shotgun there.

That would be problematic, since I haven't had it in my possession in the last 10 years or more. As i said, it's the training gun in my family. And as I also posted, my young cousin has it now. I do not currently own a .410. Currently all of my shotguns (and I have several) are 12ga.

Don't try and claim you knocked down a limit of birds day after day with a Savage fugking 24 in 22LR/410.

Unless you were ground pounding them, you're FOS.

I started shooting a double 410 at age 8. I doubt i could have really tried to hit a dove with it at age 5, much less 4.

Not all kids are the same. I was killing big game with a rifle by the age you were toting a 410. My boys almost 4 and he’s not ready either. When you’re a prodigy you just are.

Sorry slinger, I missed your post. The reason it is a mistake, IMO is that shooters do not give the 3/4 oz loads a chance in many instances and they are amazingly lethal, pleasant to shoot and easier on the gun and shooter. Just picked up a Parker GH 16 ga. damascus 0 frame, so I can't disagree with your perfect pheasant killer assertion. But, 3/4 oz. of 7s out of a 28 is truly amazing.

To me, putting a 1oz load in a fine little 28 sxs is like hauling hogs to market in your vette. It can be done. ;-{>8

If the birds are there to be flushed, the .410 will do the job. Ohio limit on pheasant is 2 males a day. That is a simple goal to hit, and that's with a hinge action single shot.
If you think that is difficult, then you have no respect for the tool you're using.

Where have you hunted wild birds with a .410? What kind of birds?

Ohio doesn’t count.

Jesus Christ just STFU already.

I do know of ONE hunter that has killed piles of upland birds with a .410.

But he’s more honest than most.

Quail has a season only down by the Ohio river now, pheasant, I can hunt state wide. And yes, Ohio does count.

Go shoot a round of sporting clays with your 24.

Or, better yet, just take vid of someone throwing clays for you and your knocking them down with that 24.

GFY. If you can't do it, that's your problem. Some of us grew up with shotguns. Ohio has only allowed rifle for deer for few years. Foster slugs or sabot slugs was the best we got. You learn what your gun can do. Birds, or small game is not a problem with a .410.

I could give a fugg about who killed what with a 410, but a Winchester 42 has to be about the coolest pump action ever made.

I’d happily give one a whirl.

Again, you show your complete lack of reading skills. Try sounding out the big words, and do it again...

Although this site has become a joke there are still a few of us that know what we’re talking about.

You’re full of schit.

Too bad you're not one of them..410ga kills pheasant just fine.

I never said they couldn’t.

And you’re still full of schit.

Sorry, im not able to find 7s in lead shot. I dont think i have ever been outshot on wild blue quail by anyone using high base 7 1/2s in a 12 ga against my low base 20 guage dove load 6s.

They may have dropped more birds with broken wings but they were never caught/found to be put in the bag. Thankfully at times my dog would find some of the cripples as much as 80 yards away or they would have done worse and that was only in instances where there was no mound of badger holes or packrat mounds with holes built up under mesquite bushes.

I did have a semipro clay shooter tie me once but that was at the end of a long day after i wore out and had already showed him how the cow ate the cabbage.

Im not a real good shot, but 1 or 2 6s in a blue quail that gets up at 30-35 yds will mostly go in the bag. Those birds hit in the guts at 40-45 yds with 7.5s may die but not that day and will usually fly 150-200 yds before going down whereupon they find and run down a hole to die in. The broke wing cripples will outrun a white man or get away serpentining through mesquites too big to run though.

At 40 yards 6s will take down jackrabbits and a squirrel hit with 3 6s at 40 yds is in real trouble. Plenty of pines in E Texas too tall to take a fox squirrel out of the top with 7.5s. Not so with 6s.

I knew an old timer who killed a mountain of quail with a SxS 410. He never claimed to anyone that he ever shot one out of the air.

Ohio doesn’t count because it’s not a wild bird state. Nobody give a flying fugk what birds have a season there. Wisconsin has a hun season but I’d be suprised if there is anyone in the state that shoot wild born huns anytime in the last 10 years. The fact that you’re using a game regs as your source speaks volumes.

I don’t doubt Ohio has small pockets of wild pheasants in spots but you ain’t hunting them and certainly not with a .410.

Unless you live in the northern edge of Great Lakes,the northeast,or a western State you’re traveling to hunt Wild birds in the conus beyond a few wild pheasants.

https://youtu.be/qru21BhtVi0

https://youtu.be/U8Qvxm7LL_I

https://youtu.be/utcO2eB_eIY


https://youtu.be/JL4xS3iac6U


https://youtu.be/PSw0PENfztY

The evidence is clear. The .410 is an effective bird gun. It is not a long range gun, but at the range of a flushed bird 20-40 yards, it will certainly do the job.

The only thing that’s clear is you’re out of your element.

Nobody has said a .410 won’t kill a pheasant.

410 is bout worthless, gonna run a 28 this year..

Now you're just being ridiculous. Ohio raises and releases pheasant every year. In fact, I can be paid to raise pheasant for ODNR, and if I had the room to do so, I would.
There is plenty of public lands to hunt birds on, and I usually go to the Delaware county public hunting area, simply because it is closest, and has pheasant, squirrels, some rabbits, and deer. (No real pheasant habitat on my deer hunting property).
I have a bunch of duck and goose decoys I'm interested in trying out as well.

A .410ga is well tested by me against pheasant, quail, squirrel, and deer. I don't have to guess if it will do the job, I know it will.
As for shooting birds on the ground, that a not my way, I shoot em in the air. If it's wounded, wring it's neck.

"
deflave Offline
Campfire Oracle
Don't try and claim you knocked down a limit of birds day after day with a Savage fugking 24 in 22LR/410.

Unless you were ground pounding them, you're FOS."

Yeah, someone did. Deflave opened his big mouth, and said it couldn't be done, then made remarks that are not worth repeating about my character.
That loud mouth is flat out wrong (not that that is any surprise) and rude as usual.

7s are a reloading thing. I have never seen them factory either. They seem about perfect for the 28 when balancing pattern and penetration. Just an opinion.

link to 7 shot: https://www.rotometals.com/lead-shot/

3/4 oz .410s. Custom made roll crimper..





...and once the 3" shells are frayed, a custom 2 1/2" trim-to-length die & wingless wads.



....additionally, roll crimped shells feed better than star or 8-point crimps.


DMc

He said YOU aren’t shooting limits daily during season with a single shot .410. Is he wrong about that?

Nobody said people aren’t killing pheasants with the .410 at all. I’ve taken one out and shot state released birds here in Wisconsin. Nobody cares. That’s just exercise for the dogs when I can’t take them bird hunting.

If my thinking pen raised birds don’t require the same killing power as wild birds or that the shots on wild birds aren’t longer and less predictable makes me rediculious I guess I am. If all you’ve ever shot is pen raised birds or wild pheasants in one area back in the day you don’t have a grasp of what wild bird hunting really is and you just look like a fool to people that do.

Nothing wrong with pen raised birds I take people out every year that only have a chance to shoot state released birds over my dogs. But that doesn’t make them knowledgeable about much of anything.

I grew up hunting farmland, not state or publics lands much. Bird releases are done on public lands. I've wore out plenty of boots walking fence lines, fields, and woods.
Ans yes, he was wrong about that. I've been kicking up and shooting wild birds since I was a child.
We may not have as many birds as you, but we certainly have enough to learn to shoot properly, learn the pace, identification, range, how much to lead,
So yes, I do have faith in a .410 for birds. And eventually I will have another one.
What's ridiculous is you seem to think we have no birds except pen raised birds. That's Not true, nor are we ignorant of how to hunt them.

5 lb 28 ga. (Top)

The guys who hunt both tell me that after a month or two, if they make it that long, pen raised birds are the same as wild.

I guarantee I've hunted with a 24 more than you have and killed far more game with one than you have.

I didn't say it couldn't be done. I stated YOU haven't done it. Because you haven't.

IF is the key word.

They rarely do.

This is the same retard that claims to have made his own bow with a willow stick and shoelace.

Oh, made his own arrow too.

Then took a whitetail.

LMAO.

The key to finding those birds is to hunt the adjacent properties. Nearly zero survive on the release sites, but more than a few make it to private property.

Unlike you I don't have to lie about my bird hunting experiences.

You're full of schit.

I have seen them dropped all over private land as well.

If you don't hunt them they die anyway.

If you could just drop them like seed every place would have pheasant. They rarely make it.

They are when they are dead...

Dmc's roll crimp idea is good. Back when I shot Skeet competitively I shot the .410 a lot. We all used it for practice. I've hunted dove with it and it is good if you don't get too optimistic with range. I load the 2 1/2" shells as that's what my skeet tubes are bored for but I have a little Remington 11-48 .410 that I like to shoot and it's bored for 3". loading .410's is sort of troublesome as it is a small cavity to fill. The crimps wear out and were it not for that the hulls would last a very long time.

I like the sub gages and have shot the 20 more than any other for hunting I suppose but I have a long history with the little .410.

And you sir, are a liar.

Stick to slingshots.

You spelled YouTube wrong.

https://www.pheasantsforever.org/Bl...Ohio-Pheasant-Hunting-Forecast-2018.aspx

Our numbers are down, but we still have birds to hunt. I was born Indiana, spent my childhood there, and moved to Ohio as a young man. I do not recall ever having a closed season for birds or small game. (Other than rabbit, which froze during the blizzard of '76 (iirc).
The peak of pheasant hunting for Ohio, was in the 40's but they have never gone away entirely. just declined in number.
We still hunt birds, but these days I use a 12ga. Sterlingworth sxs, just because I can.
Deflave, I'm still trying to find value in you, but it seems to get harder each day.

LOL

The Brits made horrendous pistols and few decent bolt action rifles, but they nailed it with side by side shotguns. When compared to American, Italian and German double barrels, the English guns do stand out. I still like to carry and hunt this early 20th century Webley 12 gauge. It is chambered 2 1/2 inches and you can even get both 2 and 2 1/2 inch shells for it. It weighs 7 pounds, but not so much that you can't carry it all day. The 2 and 2 1/2 inch shells are as delightful to shoot as any 20 or 28 gauge gun...

The bird cops used to say that if the released birds survived long enough to raise offspring....the offspring were wild.


They also said that like 95 percent of tame birds get dead the first year in the wild.

Some say more.

What are those funny looking little pheasants in the last picture?


They dont look like a hun.

I remember bits of a pheasant study done in the way back when. The gist was based upon two quite large areas of the same environment, one open to normal, free-range hunting; the other was high fenced off with absolutely no taking of birds. Conditions were otherwise the same. This study was over a period of years IIRC.

In the end, bird populations were roughly the same with no evidence at all that birds could be “stockpiled” and that the max average lifespan was within 2-3 years, completely dependent on cover, weather, predation and food.

In fact, the higher number of cock birds left after fall (no hunting area) meant more competition for the hens for the available food and cover through winter. Thus fewer nesting hens come springtime. Again, if memory doesn’t fail, a cock pheasant can service up to twenty hens come dating time, so within reason, there is no need to try to preserve numbers of rooster pheasants.

These were strictly wild birds with the main takeaway being, aside from hunting, pheasants don’t live a long time and are most susceptible to the lack of protective, winter cover.

As to raised birds, then placed in the field, about half — purely an arbitrary guess — become “wild-like” if they survive a month or so under normal hunting conditions. The others presumably are those you spot, wondering google-eyed, 20 yards ahead of you.

People don't realize the mortality in wild birds of all flavors. It is such that even pheasants could survive to the sustainable limits, even if you were allowed a hen in your daily bag limit...

Chukar...

Beautiful old piece, sir. I really like the feel of the old Sterlingworth.

Near as I can tell.....they release birds for the benefit of the hunters and predators....not the birds.


Well, that and your local hotels and State FWP.....





Nature's a bitch!

Not really, I was just stating my observation of no difference in put and wild QUAIL. As to chukar and pheasant, I suspect not, but I have no experience there, so I refrained from commenting.

Thats why they are called cocks..

Good reason for the high percentage, they announced the release day, time and location, instead of just releasing them. Hunter lined up shoulder to shoulder don't leave much to chance.
I'd be happier with the announcement "we released x number of birds in this general area....last week."

Id love to see a video of a 4 year old swinging a 410 on and shooting at doves.

I got my mod 67 A 22 at age 7 and started with the neighbors 410 in second grade. At age nine in 3rd grade i got a Savage SS 30-30 and Monkey ward 16 ga full choke.
I think i would stay far away from a 4 yo swinging a gun on the dove line.

2 nice guns. Col Travis would shine with the upper one.

I generally only toted the 4 and 10 as Gramps called it, when it was just me and Dad. And even now as an adult, Fugg a bunch of “dove lines”. I’ve seen a hell of a lot more people peppered and stung by full grown asswholes on “dove lines” than I ever have by kids.

I’m not saying it’s for any other kid, it most certainly isn’t, but some kids are different. I could also read at a 2nd or 3rd grade level by age 4.

Point is that one thing I know is not good for a kid of any age who’s learning to wingshoot, is a 410. They create much unneeded frustration that could be avoided by using a light loaded 20 or 28. Plus Jr might get to shoot a little more if shells ain’t costing old dad $13 a box.

This thread has reached fairly epic status.

Pen raised bird experts, 4 year old wingshooters, and youtube videos to prove points ridiculously made.

Summer is almost upon us, everybody get outside!

Nosir, not gonna do it. Not until you apologize!

$20K Beretta SL3 - clic pic for article

Oh please stop....my heart is hurting.......

Just beautiful!

I've had a lot of sweet (and expensive) small bore shotguns in my life, was obsessed with them for a while but living in the PNW I've found that my little Franchi Affinity can do it all from Cacklers and ducks to grouse and quail. Very nice little affordable shotgun!

They’re great.

Dad (a great parent, but clearly wrong according to many) started me out with an H&R Topper .410. It took awhile for me to become proficient, but I turned into a pretty fair wing shot. (Of course, that was when I, my eyesight, and my reflexes were much younger.)

I shoot a 28 Fab Arm o/u almost exclusively now. I’ve had no problem with Georgia pen raised pheasants out to 30 yards. Took it turkey hunting with som #5 bismuth shot I found at Cabelas but never got a shot.