During the last decade or two we have seen the 45 gap, 357 sig, 5.7 x 28, 40SW, 10mm which have enjoyed limited popularity with some of them dying off (who has a 45gap these days?). Granted the 10mm still hangs on in the niche area of animal defense and hunting, the others have all either never gained significant popularity, or have lost significant popularity, everybody seems to go back to the 380, 38 special/357 mag, 9mm and 45ACP for CCW? Why do so many new handgun calibers fail to catch on?

The 45 Gap was an answer to a question never asked. The 357 Sig, 40 S&W and the 10mm do nothing dramatically better than established rounds.
The 357 Sig is a higher velocity 9mm that offis improved ballistics, but more expensive to feed and marginally more effective

The 445 GAP was intended for countries that won't allow citizens to own military cartridge chambered firearms. The 40 S&W and 357 SIG were aimed at law enforcement. Both have a snappy recoil that many folks don't like. IMHO the 357 SIG could be more popular if the chamber was cut to head space on the shoulder.

"The .45 GAP (Glock Auto Pistol) or .45 Glock (11.43×19mm) pistol cartridge was designed by Ernest Durham, an engineer with CCI/Speer, at the request of firearms manufacturer Glock to provide a cartridge that would equal the power of the .45 ACP, have a stronger case head to reduce the possibility of case neck blowouts, and be shorter to fit in a more compact handgun. GAP is an acronym for "Glock Automatic Pistol", and the .45 GAP is the first commercially introduced cartridge identified with Glock."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_GAP

There is no new cartridge that has come out, or can reasonably be conceived, that is better for the purposes that handguns are normally used than what is already available.

Firearms are a mature technology. Improvements are only possible around the edges. Dramatic improvements are simply not possible until somebody invents a phazer, just like on Star Trek.

Firearms do not wear out under decades of normal use. A gun made 100 years ago is still useful, in many cases just as useful as one made yesterday. Gunmakers keep bringing out new rifle and handgun cartridges because they need to sell new guns to stay in business. However, none of the new ones can really justify their existence based on usefulness. An older cartridge, if it was tweaked properly, could do the same job.

So nearly every new cartridge is, ultimately, a failure in the commercial market. The 6.5 Creedmor is an exception, but there are several much older 6.5 and 7mm cartridges that could do the very same job if loaded similarly in an appropriately twisted rifle.

The old stuff does the job, so in order to sell more guns, the new stuff has to be sexier and more stylish. Most of the time, it flops.

I think .41 Action Express had a great deal of potential, but didn't make it. It had a rebated rim matching the 9mm Parabellum, but was otherwise similar to today's .40 S&W. As a result, a simple conversion of a 9mm handgun could be done with a simple barrel swap. I did this to a TZ-75 I had back in the late 1980s, but apparently the barrel wasn't a perfect match for my gun, because I had reliability issues with it. A gunsmith could likely have remedied it, but I just gave up on it, having lost confidence in the idea.

And Cor-Bon was getting similar velocity increases from standard 9mm already.

There is a lot to what you say, I think.

I just posted about buying a P229 .357 Sig, and while I was pondering hitting the checkout button on CDNN...I decided to price some ammo to make sure I wasn’t about to goof. I was pleasantly surprised to find .357 Sig ammo cheaper than comparable 9mm. In this case, my go to defense load of Speer Gold Dots. 125gr JHP is $.94/rd vs $1.15 for 124gr 9mm. However, 9mm FMJ rounds are still about 1/2 the cost. This gun will not replace my Glock 9mms in their intended roles, but should be a nice center console companion when out on the farm.

Not sure I agree on the 10mm. It significantly outperforms the .45acp and the 9mm when properly loaded. It did fall by the wayside for a while, but there are a lot more models currently offered, and it's easier now to find factory loads on the shelf. The odd thing is that most of those loads I'm seeing locally are still 10mm Lite.

I didn't find the 10mm to significantly out perform 45ACP +P.

cartridges are ordinaly ranked in sales/quantity produced. Cartridges like 380, 9mm, 38sp, 357, 45 acp have been around for a long time and have millions of guns ahead of the 5.7, 40, 10mm. The legacy cartridges are pretty much standards not only in industry but how people compare cartridges in general. Look at the 40, at one point you might have thought the 40 became the new standard but it didn’t, it only became very popular. The 40 was still being compared to an older standard, the 9mm that still outsold it. Nevertheless, popularity is ordinal as well... the top three big defensive auto cartridges are 9mm, 45acp, and 40 S&W. How is the 40 not popular? What major auto cartridge is overtaking it? None, it still ranks in the top 3 major auto pistol cartridges albeit its sales has substantially dropped.

The 9MM Federal, 41AE and 45 Gap are about the only three I can think of, in the last 30 years,that completely missed the market they were intended for.

The reason they keep coming up with new rounds is to get us to buy more guns. I fell for it once. 17HMR if the 40 gr. 22WMR won't do it the 45 gr. 22-250 will.

All of which offer advantages over their predecessors. They don't make it because handgun owners are stodgy old cusses that are resistant to change. In what other area does "new" apply to 40-year old products (Glock)?

Meh...

https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...eted-hollow-point?variant=18785725153337

Well, that's good news, and I will defer to your infinitely wider experience in applying bullets to flesh than I. But on paper, the evidence points to 200-300 fps advantage to the 10mm. It's enough to give pause to us who are less experienced.

I think that is gun nuts are a fickle bunch. When a new cartridge comes out we have to try it. Some make it and some are found to be just a rehash if something we already have. The 10mm started out big and then faded but now it is chambered one more guns than ever. It is my favorite round and I have found it to out perform the .45 ACP +P significantly especially hunting. If you want a powerful .45 the .460 Rowland fits the bill but it is a much cartridge. The .327 Federal is getting more popular. The .480 Ruger is another one that fills a need for hunting. With it and the 10mm I believe I could hunt anywhere in the world.

I'm not talking about paper ballistics, I'm talking about depth of penetration and wound chanel size. The 45 Super clearly has the upper hand in actual field use from my experience

well, for ccw, choose the handgun bullet performance you want, and work backwards...to the platform that suits your lifestyle. i think a lot of folks wind up back with the 9mm Parabellum and 45ACP and whatever platform meets their needs.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/


You can make a similar argument with hunting or target bullets... choose the desired effect and work backwards to the cartridge and platform.

Yes, absolutely. But I thought we were talking about 45acp+p.

Don't be confused about my point. The real world does not effect sales as much as common perception. The OP's question relates to sales, not actual performance. It's a mistake to assume that sales are always directly proportional to real world performance. If the proper 10mm (not lite) looks significantly better on paper than 45acp+p (and it does, IMO), sales of 10mm handguns are likely to increase or at least hold steady. 45 Super is without question even more powerful, but factory handguns ready to use it without trepidation are in short supply.

Using Undrrwood Ammo in both the 10mm and 45 ACP in +P shootng both I did not and do not see any superiority in the 10mm over a properly loaded 45ACP

Muzzle Velocity: 1400 fps is only 150 FPS faster. More, but not significantly more ... not so any animal hit with it would notice.

I suspect that is exactly the case, if you're talking about the 255gr 45 at 925 fps vs the 220gr 10mm at 1200. But without a lot of personal experience with both or published head to head comparison (which there isn't) that's still a hard sell. Even knowing what you have (believably) posted and with my own bias for the 45+p, I could go either way. Those less informed but looking at the numbers, may likely assume that the 10mm advantage is real and significant. Additionally, it's hard to argue that the 10mm is actually inferior (without invoking the Super).

Clearly, "significant" has an arguable definition. We've all been down this road before. We can be in complete agreement though, and the market can still act as if we are not.

There is a very good base of experience for a 255gr 45 RNFP or SWC at 925 fps or a bit beyond. It's called the 45 Colt and it kills way better than its paper ballistics would indicate. I like both the 10mm cartridges but they're hard pressed to put meat on the ground faster than a proper 250 grain 45 will.

Yep. Agreed again. But I would argue that isn't what the market is focusing on. You guys are languishing in an argument that doesn't exist here. If it did, you would be on the winning side. The question was about why calibers fail to gain and keep market share. Real world performance is not the sole driver of market share.

What about the new Ruger 57?

New handgun cartridges fail because:
(1) They can't gain any traction. Groups of casual shooters talk about their guns which are chambered in the historically popular group of cartridges (9mm, .45 ACP, .38 Spcl, etc) and when a guy in the group wants to get a new gun, he wants to be cool/popular so he buys something like his buddies have. People that frequent message boards like this are probably less than 2% of the gun buyers' market. The sellers' market caters to those other 98%. The masses in the buyers' market aren't going to buy "new-fangled stuff." They are "going to go with what works, darn it."

(2) The majority of handguns are marketed as self-defense weapons of some capacity, and new handgun cartridges don't do anything dramatically new/different. New cartridges will launch a projectile at less than 1400 fps and the bullet won't create a permanent wound channel in a human body--just the same as all the already existing cartridges. So anything new is not "better." Since they are not better, they don't gain any traction with the 2% of the gun community who might consider something new, or with the 98% who are resistant to change from what already works (discussed in Point #1, supra). As a fringe, new cartridge fails to gain popularity, it becomes expensive--both the guns and the ammo. Then, it's eventual slide to obscurity is all but guaranteed.

That's my two cents; I'm sure I'll get change back.

What type of animal and how many have you killed with each?

A-Hole.

Thought so.

I believe for personal protection, the 9mm and the 357/38Spl are pretty well dialed in. New ammo developments continue to make them better.


Particularly the 9mm, has economy of mass quantity. Probably will be the most popular defensive handgun chambering for a good time to come.


In short, it's tough to beat the 9mm at it's own game.

As much as I’m a proponent of the .357 sig for certain applications, overall you’re correct.

After doing a lot of side-by-side comparisons on vehicles, etc I still believe that for ‘my’ application the sig has some advantages. The advantages of 9mm cost outweighs it, though, when looking at the larger picture.

Thus, the 9mm professionally but I keep an identical gun in .357.

Start watching at 14:15

I'll use myself as an example, regarding the 10mm.

I know that the .45 Colt is a proven performer, and of course, all those calibers above it. But I don't want, for valid reasons that are not uncommon, to carry a large frame revolver - and maybe I just want to carry an auto if possible anyway - one that at doesn't require modification or for me to take on the role of crash test dummy. At this time (unlike ten or more years ago), I can walk into several local gun stores and find on the shelf, factory loads in 10mm that surpass any 45acp loads there by a measurable (I would say significant) degree. While I may be aware that it's possible that I could accomplish what I want (deep penetration on large animals) with one or more of the 45acp+p loads that I might find, it is arguable that the 10mm loads I can readily find in stock will penetrate better (higher velocity + SD per weight), and will certainly not penetrate less.

Having no such experience killing large animals with handgun calibers, which one do you think I might gravitate to, especially if already wanting to buy a new gun? Not another 45acp. I'd propose that I am not even close to unique in that regard, and that is why the 10mm is probably not going away this time, unless some outside factor is inserted.

As you might deduce, this can have a snowballing effect. As more varied and effective loads become available, more gun buyers may decide to go with 10mm, which should motivate ammo makers to provide more 10mm ammo....and on it goes. Until somebody convinces us that the 10mm is somehow a mistake, or something better and more viable comes along. For a while, everybody thought that was the 40S&W, but now, not so much. I don't see that happening again soon, but I could be wrong.

I've watched that video a few times. It's not without merit, but it's also not very scientific. His choice of loads is extremely limited, and his test media is obviously not consistent nor seriously representative of anything real.

Edit: And, BTW, if one were to take his penatration test at face value, one might think that 45 hardball is a great bear round. That front watermelon might suggest otherwise.

real world performance is not the sole driver is very accurate. Take the 9mm, its performance is not "better" than many other cartridges, however its recoil is mild and its "enough" especially with 124 grain gold dots per bluedreax. The 357 sig is a much better performing round and I hazard to say its probably not a 1/10th as popular.

IMHO the Ruger 57 will bring the 5.7X28 to new highs.

I would like to believe the 5.7 x 28 is "all that", its just hard for me to understand, how a 40 grain vmax at 1700 fps is as effective as even the 9mm 124 grain at 1100fps.

It looks to be a better design than the FN. I am certainly way more inclined to buy one.....eventually.

I get that, but it's not necessarily for the same mission.

My experience on game with the 10mm, .45 ACP and .460 Rowland the the 10mm usually penetrates or deer completely and Rowland usually does but I have never had the ACP pass through. This is using 200gr and 220gr hard cast bullets in 10mm and 200gr and 255g hard cast bullets in both .45s. Our deer in Florida are anywhere from 100 lb does to 200 lb bucks. I have used the 10mm and Rowland on hogs with pass throughs on the 80 lb ones and good penetration to the vitals but no pass throughs on the 200 lb boars. Never tried the ACP on them. YMMV

That's valuable data.

FreeMe, I actually am pretty convinced that the upper potential of the 10mm is probably superior to the upper potential of the .45 ACP all things being equal (barrel length, etc.).

Is your purpose defense against large bears? If so, and you want an auto pistol, then 10mm is probably your best bet, with the most appropriate loads. I was simply saying that, with the best loads possible, the .45 is not much inferior, thus bringing into question the necessity for the 10mms introduction as a sporting round, when .45 ACP is already well established. Necessity, of course, is a subjective matter.

PS As a general issue law enforcement round, it was ridiculous, which is now generally agreed upon.

I shot one 250 or so pound boar with a 45ACP, that was still breathing after I hit him with a 308. I shot him with the 45 in the back of the head from 1-2 feet away with a 230 grain gold dot from a Kimber commander length gun, the pig quit moving very shortly thereafter however as far as I could tell the bullet did not go out the bottom of his head. The gun was near horizontal, the pig was laying on its side, and I was squatted down next to it.

Yep. I agree with all of that. For the record, I would have been happier if we could have seen the 45 Super as a factory option. Yeah, I know there is at least one gun that everybody says is safe to use 45 Super in the way it comes to your heart's content, but I want to see the gun actually billed as a Super by the factory....and have it fit my hand. It's not too much to ask, right?

I'm actually not yet fielding an auto in 10mm. I do like the Match Champion 10mm though. Six shots of major power in a medium frame revolver that I am extremely familiar with is hard to dislike.

In my experience the 230 XTP penetrates substantially more than the 230 grain Gold Dot. The 45 ACP +P rounds give up very little to a 10mm in my experience when the best bullets are used in each.

jwp...what velocity are you getting out of a +P 230?

This response doesn’t seem called for. He asked a reasonable question based on your previous post.

975 to 1000 FPS depending on load and bullet

The 185 grain XTP penetrates very well ar 1200 FPS and is of tougher construction than the 230 grain XTP. The 185 XTP doesnt open as wide as the 230 XTP does

Shhh! Don't tell anybody....(I've been carrying a 1911 with Underwood 255gr CFN too.)

If someone came up with a 9mm Creedmoor, it would sell like hotcakes!

Because they suck.

The advantage to the 5.7X28 is that it is a pistol/subgun round that can penetrate soft armor. Good luck marketing that to civilians without an onslaught of media coverage demanding it be banned.

Another advantage is the higher BC bullets along with speed making it a flat shooter to the 100 and 150yd line. But considering the fact that most people can barely hit the A Zone at 25yds, it kinda makes that advantage moot.

The round really can't be reloaded to potential, and that means you have to buy factory. And it ain't cheap.

You also have to build a gun around the cartridge. This has made it a one trick pony until Ruger stepped into the ring. Who knows where things will go from here.

This is to say that the 5.7 isn't a bad cartridge by any means. Just not as marketable for Joe Schit "need a house gun."

Look for dealers that sell 50 round boxes of what is commonly referred to as "duty" or "LE" and you often can find ammo for ~50 cents a round.

https://ammoseek.com/ammo/9mm-luger/Speer-handgun-124grains-?ikw=Gold%20Dot&nr=50

Sample of one, but the 'warm' 185 tac-x that Gunner500 had on hand did a number on the hog it connected with.
I can't directly compare the 10mm on hog because of shot placement. That 185 was a head shot.


George

Not true as in wrong, false and incorrect.

I'm happy to be wrong on that. If you're reloading it to factory specs please post the info.

Are any SF type units playing with that HK round the 4.6 or 4.7? Or is it dead.

The H&K USP-45 is often described as a tank of a gun. I wonder if it could hold up to .45 Super?

Just did a search, and someone on H&KPro.com seems pretty sure it can.

"YES!

The USP 45 can fire 45 Super all day long. . . no problem!"

Another comment on the question:

"Greg Bell shot 25 rounds of .45 Super through his HK45. At the time it had about 1,700 rounds through it. He now has over 8,000 rounds through the gun and it's running like a champ."

Who's Greg Bell?

Without a doubt just as it comes from the factory. Very accurate boot

By all accounts, it can.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

Another response:

"I've shot a few hundred rounds of 45 super through my USP and Tactical with no problems. I took a hog with one a few years ago as well. You should be fine.

Doc"

The only anecdotal data I have on the .40 S&W was when a deer was hit by a car and one of our Sgts has to put it down. It was a mesium sized doe and he fired his issue Glock .40 directly into the back of its head from about 3 ft away and the bullet ricocheted off the skull....twice. He then used a knife to the throat.

Holy crap.

I believe so though I cannot, at this moment, recall where I read it. The fullsize Springfield XD will handle it, the Glock 21 and select 1911s. As with many things, it depends on who you ask.

I've got a HS6 load for the PPQ 45 that scoots the Lee 452-255-RF to 853 fps from a 4 1/4" Walther PPQ45. There's a little throttle left on that one, but I am familiar with those ballistics and satisfied with them.

Sarge, would it be advisable to put in a stronger spring, or just as it is? Someone at that other site said he fired a bunch of .45 Super through his USP-45, but was concerned about how it felt like it was banging hard against the stop, so he installed a stronger spring.

Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that a .40 S&W ricochets off the skulls of deer from 3'?

Do you honestly believe that?

That is what he said plus a few other colorful words directed at the round and the people that chose it! I picked up the deer for the meat and we did a necropsy on it. There were two dents in the skull about an inch apart inline between the ears. We cut off the back of the skull and it looked like a normal skull. Couldn’t recover the bullet to find out if they were to blame.

I like the 357 Sig too. It's a pretty hot round. Mine is a Glock 22 with a 6" KKM barrel.



My words above are more a generalization of the mass handgun market.

Holy crap a 40 bounced off a deers head!

Has anybody asked the manufacturers? What do they say?

Yes because I know the Sgt that shot it and I saw the deer and examined it. I skinned the skull and saw the dents in it. So I believe it fully. This was probably 15 years ago. I don’t remember the load they were using but I know they did some more testing and switched loads. A few years later they switched to .45 Glocks. Now they are using 9mms


There was also the guy who hit the deer watched him do it and said he wouldn’t have believed it if he didn’t see it. He was a gun owner and said he normally carried a .40 also

Which loading was used?

The HK USP can handle 46 Super
The only modification that I had to do to mine was inreplace the magazine springs, other wise no modification was required

How many rounds of Super have you put through it?

What about the Sig 220?

Someone at the other site claimed that H&K specifically approved .45 Super for the Model HK45, but that no mention of the .45 Super was made by H&K in regard to the USP-45. But he assumed the same would hold for both.

That's nice. When they put it on the side of the gun, I'l really sit up and take notice.

Or in the manual. That would mean something.

I have no idea how many that I have fired through it. When I bought it which was used I asked Jack Huntingyon and he said that the HK USP would handle 45 Super without a problem just as it was

When S&W came out with the .38/44 and the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman designed and marked for it, Colt announced that their Official Police .38 would handle the new .38/44 load, which was just a super hot loaded .38 Special approaching what would later be called the .357 Magnum, but not quite. Anyway, it wasn't marked on the gun or in the manual, but Colt said it could handle it.

Not 100% relevant to our discussion, but just a side note that I was reminded of by this conversation.

I don’t remember what the bullet was but it was a Winchester load. I called him and he thinks it was the SXT load but couldn’t remember the bullet weight

Interesting.

Bullets will and do deflect on hard bone if hit at an angle.

I have no personal experience with the USP in 45 caliber.

I'd say a stronger recoil spring is a sensible addition in any pistol in which you're shooting substantially heavier than standard loads and where frame battering is a concern.

I can think of five deer I killed outright or finished with the 40 S&W using 165 or 180 grain Federal HST. It will shoot through the chest cavity behind the shoulders, shoot through it above, in through the hump of the shoulders and out through the sternum. Shot one straight across the shoulder joints and that bullet was recovered under the skin of the far side shoulder, looking like hell hammered on concrete. It's worth mentioning that all three were on the ground where they were hit or within 15 feet of there. I've head shot several others... usually full penetration and DRT instantly. No ricochets off the noggin...

If you put a stronger recoil spring in a HK USP then it will not run 45 ACP and sporadically run +P

I have smaller hands and if I lived in a state with a 10rd mag law, I'd buy a G38 in 45GAP and call it good. It would be a 21st Century 45 Commander. Other than that, I wouldn't have a use for it.
PS--If every cartridge was popular, no cartridge would be popular...think about it.

Now, that's interesting.

There you go, Thanks JWP.

https://www.snipercountry.com/10mm-vs-45-acp/
I know a couple guys that bought 10mm glocks over the last couple of years for bear defense while hiking/fishing. None of them have had to use them. Ive read some ballistic info on the 10mm. It looks like it has a slight advantage on paper. I also watched a show a couple years ago where they compared 45acp and 10mm in ballistic gel. The 10mm penetrated 6"+ deeper but it could have been bias. Who know who funded it and I cant remember what different ammo they used. I have faith in my xd 45 still though.

I don't know how anybody could say the 40 S&W enjoyed "limited popularity". The .40 has been nothing less than wildly popular. The advent of better 9mm ammo may have trumped it a bit, but it will be a big seller for the foreseeable future due to the proliferation of fairly cheap guns and ammo for it.

The 10 was somewhat unsuccessful initially especially since the FBI adopted it and it still didn't go over big. Too much competition from the .40. It hung on and is still fairly popular. To a lesser extent, so has the 357. The 5-7 was almost moribund, but now Rooger has a platform...we'll see. The only one really dead is the GAP.

Personally, I never saw the need for any of these rounds. I've had a bunch of 10's and they just never stick. I resisted the 40 for a long time, but the ammo was so cheap and available that I got one. Then another. Then I got rid of both. Then I got another because I had ammo, brass, dies, bullets, etc. I use mine a lot, not because I'm in love with it, but because it's there. I don't like Glocks and I don't like Glocks in 40 the most. I've got a S&W M&P in .40 and it's just a gun. It's a good gun, but it isn't something precious like a JOHN MOSES BROWNING 45 AUTO COLT PISTOL.

Threads without pics are like War and Peace, but threads WITH pics are like a good Jonah Hex comic book...mo betta.

I should have said "some of them enjoying limited popularity" there is no doubt the 40SW is dying off, 40 caliber guns are almost impossible to sell these days in my neck of the woods, some folks taking half of what they paid for them in when the do sell. In my opinion the 40sw is slowly going away.

I doubt it. It's actually an excellent round in many ways. The reason for the sudden and dramatic price drop is that it has gone out of favor with law enforcement agencies, and there were so many in existence that were being replaced so suddenly, all at once, that market principles operated to drive the prices way down.

Agreed. In an instant, it could be back in favor with LE too. They love getting new equipment and are fickle in their choices. Many LE, especially the ones making decisions about equipment, are not gun folks. There was never any real reason to move to the .40 in the first place, nor was there any real reason to move away from it after doing so. The 10 was a fine choice for the FBI too. Just load it down or make recruits train until they were proficient.

Not in the industry and don't know chit, but I have to believe a lot of failures/shying away are due to lack of training as a whole, people are to in touch with their feelings nowadays, it's a service handgun/cartridge for crying out loud, grab that sombitch and run it, must be too many women and beta males in law enforcement/military that have contributed to so much switching around from one make/model/cartridge to the other, then back again, it's not going to hurt you, learn the damn thing, I have some rifles that will hurt you.

I much prefer the recoil impulse of, for example, my Glock 17 vs my Glock 22, and it's got nothing whatever to do with anticipation of pain or discomfort. It's the level of concentration necessary with the Glock 22 to keep both hands firmly in place under recoil. Stop focusing hard on that task, and the .40 will cause my support hand to disengage the gun and my other hand (even if only slightly), and needs a re-acquisition of the proper two-handed grip (which slows follow up shots), whereas my two-handed grip never needs a re-acquisition while shooting my Glock 17. For that reason alone (again, nothing to do with pain, fear, or discomfort, of which there is none while shooting the Glock 22), I MUCH prefer the Glock 17, and shoot it better and faster. That's likely why so many agencies made the switch back to 9mm.

So it is a hand grip/strength issue? the only handgun that tried to kick loose in my hands in my FA 454 with hellbender loads, I had to send the damn thing back to FA, the grips started to splinter off at the grip frame.

Dam TRH if a 40 S&W recoil is a problem for you to hold on to, I suggest a better diet and strength and conditioning program ASAP

Had a guy try to trade me a like new Sig 226 in 40SW for a gen 4 21 yesterday, those that have them in my neck of the woods are trying to dump them. Every thing I see points to decreasing interest in the 40, and it dying off a lot. I am sure there will be some that won’t give it up due to some misperception of its effectiveness, but by and large you get about the same thing with a good 9mm bullet. People ain’t shooting bears with the damn things and if you can make a lower recoiling faster shooting gun work the same then why try a 40?

Don't know, do know my 226 40 tacops isn't going anywhere, it's a smooth running accurate pistol, as far as 9/40/45, larger calibers make larger holes, it's simple mathematics.

It's a matter of noticing the difference between the level of effort necessary to keep the support hand firmly in place while shooting the Glock 22 vs that for the Glock 17. Do you find that zero effort is required for both? If so, that's wonderful for you. The Justice League is looking for new members.

PS I notice no difference in this regard as between my Glock 30 (.45 ACP) and my Glock 17. The 30 requires no more concentration to keep the two-handed grip firmly together through the recoil impulse than does the 17. There's something about the .40 S&W, that many call "snappiness," that makes the difference in this regard. While the Glock 30 has at least as much force in its recoil impulse, it's not as "snappy."

I have no trouble keep both hands in my grip firmly together and rarely notice any difference in effort until I get into my big bore revolvers with hefty recoil. I've never noticed a problem with any service calibet.

Enough people differ with you, it seems, to justify a switch to 9mm.

The reason the new cartridges fail is that everyone is too busy arguing about the imperceptible differences in the existing cartridges to notice them.

And there it is, imperceptible differences in common SD cartridges, except of coarse the 25 Auto.

I'd hate to need one of those pussies to protect me if they could shoot any of the common self defense cartridges proficiently

Hell I can't even perceive the so called muzzle flip that you cry about with the Sig P320 even with +P+ 147 grain ammo from Underwood

George......you're turning into "that" Chief, lol. I'mma get you those white shirts yet


One of the big drivers, as I remember it when we swapped from the 45 to the 357 Sig, more aptly big concerns were ammo prices until it was determined that cost differences between those two were essentially moot.

I have always looked at cartridge selection as what cartridge is going to be the best fight stopper with the worst ammo under the worst conditions. If a guy runs out of $30/ 20 9mm Gucci ammo, then what. 9mm ball ammunition is at the bottom of the list for me unless it’s the 147 FMJ FP.

And not trying to be too funny or critical of a type of ammo that may only boast a 50% stop rating, just shoot em twice!

THIS.

I carry the same pistol for farm chores, hunting backup etc. So it's going to be a 40 or 45, because plastic guns have spoiled me thanks to their comparatively light weight, durable finishes and mag capacity that precludes the need for me to carry a reload- most days. I also like the fact that the bigger calibers kill well with garden variety flat cast or FMJ loads. Hell the only time I stoke the PPQ with HST 230 +P is when the wife & I have a day or evening out.

The FBI chose the 9mm for their own reasons and then wrote a summary justification for their choice. A lot of LE admins and police boards are lemmings. They're going lock step with the Bureau whether it makes sense or not.

What everyone else carries is of no concern to me. If it's a 9mm you're comfortable shooting, it's probably enough. It's basically a 38 special with decent bullets- and lots of them.

Maybe everyone isn't as "manly" as you. I've heard you and others brag about how big you are. Maybe you should give some consideration to those with smaller physiques or more age.

My son was shooting full power 475 Linbaugh loads when he was 11 years old. Unless one has some physical handicap they should easily be able to handle and shoot any service pistol in any service cartridge. This doesnt take a he man

Where did anyone here say they couldn't shoot it? I can shoot a Glock 22 all day. The issue is the amount of concentration required to keep a 100% locked up two-handed grip from round to round during fast stings of fire. With one, a higher degree of attention to it is required than for the other. Whether you know it or not, you are exerting x-degree of effort to maintain a locked up two-handed grip whether you're shooting 9mm or .40 S&W. You've just been doing it so long that you may be unaware of it (it's become second nature for you to exert said effort). The laws of physics dictate that a harder kicking handgun will require more effort in that regard than a lighter kicking handgun. No one said "can't." That's your addition to this conversation, because you're a .40 S&W fanboy, and can't stand to hear anything but praise for it.

I use the same amount of pressure on all including 22LR. My grip pressure doesn't change

If you use varying degrees of pressure or concentrati
n then your approach is flawed

Watch Hickok45 (a large man with decades of experience shooting Glocks in all calibers) starting at the 2:40 mark. Every time you see his support hand re-adjust, what you're witnessing is the fact that, under recoil, during strings of fire, his support hand has slipped off of its ideal position, and the support grip must be adjusted back to where it's supposed to be. It's subtle, but watch closely and you will see it happen several times during strings of fire.

I guess he needs more protein in his diet, right? And I'm willing to bet he didn't even know he was doing it, because it had become second nature to make those readjustments whenever his support hand slipped off its ideal lock-up position during strings of fire. This is more likely to occur with a Glock 22 than with a Glock 17.

He needs something if he can't maintain his grip

I bet you readjust your support hand from time to time, and are just not aware of it.

I've never once bragged about my size, have met a few folks here in person that 'thought' I was big, have always said 6'2" and 250lbs isn't big, although, I am a retard stout crazy mother-fu-ker, so that may help, Hawkeye has posted a pic of himself, he's not little, I'm going with 240 lbs and pretty muscled up, and I'm probably older than he at 58 years, old and weaker certainly get consideration, all but an idiot knows that!

LOL.

A lot could be job related JWP, i'm a farmer, you're an iron worker, pipe fitter, fabricator, welder.

We're the same exact age, gunner.

Well hell. If I'd known this board was inhabited by a bunch of youngsters, I never would have joined

And I raise quarter horses and longhorn cattle

To the point. Most agencies chose the 9mm because there is not a lot of difference between the outcomes of shootings with a 45ACP, a 40 or a 9mm. Given the best bullets to be had, at their maximum velocities, all things considered they are all about the same speed and all penetrate about as deep and all do a similar amount of damage. This is not me making this up, it’s common knowledge. When I say all things considered, recoil, your ability to shoot the gun, accuracy to hit the right spot, ability to shoot fast and more than once accurately...all things considering all people who might use the gun. The other part Glockduffus aside, the 9mm if it penetrates 13 inches is going to produce about the same damage as a 45 that penetrates 13 inches. Now I can see the 9mm and 105 howitzer will be markedly different but .35 and .45 just ain’t. Jeff Cooper was just wrong.

Proper off hand grip pressure helps in trigger control as pointed out by Bluedreaux

10-4, but you're not little ; ]

Yup, I forgot about the pony, cattle, deal too, no rest for the wicked!

Holy delusional.

You suck your own dick at every opportunity. I think you even posted your blood work a time or two.

LOL.

Jimmyp: IF... you are trying to tell me that the 40 S&W is a failure then I simply DO NOT believe you!
Use one professionally for 26 years like I have done and then get back to me!
I am VERY familiar with several very successful gunshops and sales of pistols in 40 S&W are moving right along.
Perhaps you mis-spoke?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

All old guys talk about our blood work, its a matter of health and well being, I've learned about a lot of things to watch out for as we age reading here.

I believe you're right about work-hardened hands paying less attention to the little bump a service pistol gives you. Horses, mule, fences, log chains, 5/8 cable & firewood will do that to you.

I've shot way too many critters with handguns to believe for a minute that there's no discernible difference in the terminal effect of large and small service pistol cartridges.

The 40 is pretty much dead in Michigan. We still sell the ammo but where we used to have a whole display case of 40's, now all we carry are Glocks and M&P's, mainly for cops that want to own the same gun that they are issued. We used to sell Glock 19/23's about 50/50, now it's 95+% 19's.

I remember when John Taffin used to say that recoil never bothered him. Then Arthur (itis) came to visit and stayed. BTW--I'm 60, 5'7" and 160lbs, with two shoulder replacements. I'll stick with 9mm, thank you very much.

Hate to say it Varmintguy but down south here you almost can't give away a 40SW pistol.

He does that with every gun he shoots. I doubt it's due to recoil impulse as much as it is to the fact that he has catchers mitts and adjusts his hands to avoid pinching, scraping etc

There is nothing wrong with rolling with the recoil. A lot of guys that came up on hard kickers carried that over to other handguns.

Amen .

And this medical examiner study thing gets brought up 3 times a year . Feel good validation i guess . I dunno


And hickock as A citation for EVERY TOPIC ... lawd Jesus

You guys are the red herring kings. For police shootings of humans there is no discernible difference in 45, 40, 9mm as long as penetration is 13 inches or more. Also killing deer with a 223 and 62 grain TSX bullets is no different than killing them with a 308 and 150 grain bullets. Also I have killed over 100 deer in my life from little ones to way big ones. We are not shooting animals with handguns in this discussion.

And yet here you are; they're all the same for you, until they're not....

9mm, 40, 45, these are well well, well, tested, the 5.7 not so much. I did not include the 22 magnum either..

Red herrings? Try clicking your ruby red slippers together and maybe that dream will come true- at least in your head.

They were all well tested prior to 1985...if you think cartridges that had the 5.7s ballistics didnt exist, think again.

WWII and prior, going to 1900, I would argue all calibers were "tested" to a larger degree than any amount of police data, worldwide, thereafter.

I've killed over 300 zombies with everything from a 600 Nitro down to a sharpened stick...though it WAS pretty sharp, and I can tell you that the only thing to use is a Desert Eagle in 50AE. Easily trumps a 25 Auto or 22 short. Unless the short is in a Beretta Jetfire. Then it's cool.

Why not a 32 acp .
It’s all the same

finally someone posts something believable here! It seems we agree, 45ACP, 40SW, 9MM all about the same!

We? You must have a mouse in your pockey.
I dam sure don't agree that they are about the same.

9mm guy: "read this 40 page dissertation supporting my caliber choice... 9mm performs the same as bigger calibers"

45 guy: " i shoot a 45 because they dont make a 46...."

9mm guy:" the advances in modern bullets put the 9mm on par with.... (ignoring the advances advance all calibers)"

45 guy: "9mm might expand but 45 wont shrink...(loads ball, spits in Texan accent)

9mm guy: " its number of hits that count, capacity!"

45 guy: " 1, maybe 2 more than a wheel gun, i agree more capacity is a good thing!"

9mm guy: " Ballistics gelatin!! "

45 guy; " (chuckles) Bowling pin shoot"

9mm guy ; "Red Herring!"

45 guy ; "Aint that the guy that rode with Colonel Rex Applegate and tied his grip safety down?"

9mm guy: " 40 sucks, useless, provides no performance, hurts me and Hickock's wrists"

45 guy: "umm yeah, them 40s are useless... Short & Weak (looks around nervously)"

Until I get me one of those .475 Linebaughs...gonna stick with that newfangled .480 Ruger.

Hell with it, i'll just shoot ping pong balls with dimethylmercury pellets inside out of my paint ball pistol, they wont even know they're hurt till next week!

I really, really tried to keep my mouth shut...or my keyboard quiet, but...
I work in an office of five agents, three males, two females. All have 15-20 years mixed LE and military experience, but the females generally don't shoot recreationally. None have any problem whatsoever qualifying with their .40 Glocks, which include 23s as well as 27s. Just never an issue. We shoot several courses in a day, generally 200-300 rounds. No problem. I just can't get my head around that so-called firearms guys have such a difficult time with a .40. (We use 165 gr Ranger bonded.)

No discernible difference between the various cartridges? No shiit! The FBI specced that everything has to penetrate 12-18" or whatever, so no kidding, they all perform the same. I just can't understand that when there's a 100 or more foot-pound energy difference between cartridges, no one questions what effect that has on a human that's not high. Screw me, if I'm in a gym and someone drops a 100 pound weight on my chest from a foot high, it's going to have an effect on me.

I generally work alone in Indian Country, in al weather, so the key phrase to me is "...if you get 13" of penetration." If I'm dealing with a subject wearing Carhartt overalls over a wool shirt and an undershirt, and I may less than an optimum shot angles, I want something that will assure greater than 13" penetration. And I'm not even going to discuss various barriers.

By the way, as I recall, the FBI's testing is done at ten to twelve feet! Most car stops are a hell of a lot longer distances than that.

Sorry, rant over, but I'll never get behind a 115 or 124 grain 9mm going at the same velocity as a 165 grain .40 is the same. If you want to carry a nine, go for it, just quit trying to convince everybody else.

Maybe if your name is Stevie Wonder.

How many of those deer kills were by handgun?

Bullshlt. Complete and utter Bullshlt. I can't believe that anyone on this board believes you.

I hate to agree, but...

You know the big guns but really are not knowledgeable regards self defense cartridges. People are prejudiced, they only believe what they want to believe. Explain to me where my prejudices are when I say there are solid well thought out reasons that the 9mm has been adopted over the 40 and 45 ACP for military and police use? If I have killed a deer or not with a handgun is another red herring.

Factory SD/Duty loadings for the combat calibers perform similarly because they are intended to. It's in their design.

No doubt, when loading to full potential there are differences between them, for sure.

You're making an assumption.

Now again, tell me how many of those deer fell to a handgun?

This is what most miss . Chicken vs egg .
FBI sets protocol , ammo is produced to game the fbi test .
Internet folk read it as all “service” cartridges perform the same .
Then poo poo folk that mention they’ve seen a marked difference in game ... game is mentioned because not everyone gets to shoot humans

Sport chamberings are much different than work chamberings.

Rapid follow up shots, capacity, and the ability to train the borderline un-trainable are not factors in sporting cartridges. They are in work cartridges.

Red Snapper

I call them facts. But have fun proving me right.

I understand... I’ll see if hickock has a vid on it

Whitworth1, you are posting to discredit me, good for you, it says a lot about you. In the field of big game hunting with a handgun you have been there and done that. However what most military and police agencies are using have nothing to do with handgun hunting. Further my handgun hunting abilities have nothing to do with the effectiveness of 9mm, 40SW, and 45 ACP as used in self defense shootings. You cannot say I am making an assumption when most agencies are adopting the 9mm for their personnel who go into harms way and all self defense handgun rounds are more similar than they are different....As Bluedreax said he has not seen anything shot with a 124 grain gold dot that has lived.
We have our personal prejudices and we are entitled to our own opinions but we are not entitled to our own facts, the 9mm with good bullets is about the same in performance as the 45ACP in self defense shootings, not an assumption, if you say it is post up proof that the 45ACP with its best bullets is 20% better using all considerations than the 9mm.

'flave has nailed down the reasoning behind what I stated, that the service/duty calibers are DESIGNED to perform alike.
Shootability. Scores matter.


Facts are, today's loads pouring the coal (+P/+P+) to a 9MM gets results close to standard .357Sig/.40S&W/10MM/.45ACP loadings.

Pour the coal to those four, then get back to me.

yep thats the reason why so many military agencies and the police are adopting the 44 magnum shooting 240 grain speer gold dots.

Jim, you are missing my point.
I'm in agreement with you to the extent of enough in a loading is enough. There is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to service calibers for CCW/SD/Duty. But you have to admit more power can be found than what is in the best +P+ 9MM.
Whether it is needed or not is a different discussion.

I've shot deer and pigs with both the 9mm and the 45 ACP. They are not the same but with today's better ammo the 9mm is better than it's ever been.
Dr. Martin Fackler spend a great majority of his lifes work in wound ballistics and he said that the edge went to the larger caliber weapons.
Dr. Facer also said that it is impossible to quantify a percentage of better because of too many variables.

A 45 caliber bullet is more likely to break a bone than to simply shoot a hole through it as happened in the FBI Miami shootout in 1986

Advantage 45 in bullet diameter, advantage in 9mm with magazine capacity.

Deflave is correct in what he posted, Jommy not so much when he says they ste the same

Properly loaded 45 has an edge in my opinion but the magazine capacity of the 9 can not be ignored and I have traded in my 45 for a high capacity 9mm

Hahahahahahaha.
I ask a similar question and get called an ahole. 😀

George.

Valid question that Jimmy side steps

Fakler's 1987 studies have been largely superseded. I mean who talks about stopping power anymore?? The computer is a wonderful device for collecting, storing, organizing, and analyzing data. Shooting data compiled and analyzed indicate that handgun cartridges 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP offer very similar performance. If anyone has recent data that shows through a significant number of cases that the 45ACP is 20-30% better than the 9mm, I would be happy to admit that I am wrong provided its from a reliable source, and not something like the 19 year old and largely discredited Strasbourg goat shooting test. Even Jeff Cooper's 1911 45ACP love was based largely on anecdotal evidence and personal prejudice. Again if I am wrong tell my why most federal, state, local, agencies have moved to the 9mm? Don't say because they are weenie's and can't shoot big guns, that is another red herring. Why would they put an inferior cartridge into their personnel's hands to go into harms way?

No his wortk has not been superceded and his work went way past 1987

You are all or nothing no one said that it is an inferior cartridge.
Are you obtuse naturally or do you work at it

posted by Casey Ponton

Last year I dropped my boy off at his stand. Shortly after I heard three shots. Went to get him and found two dead hogs in ride away and he told me he’d shot a third one. We walked down and sure enough found a third sow about 150 lbs with a broken spine. We walked up to her and followed along beside her as she was dragging herself along on her front end. I pulled my beretta and shot her basically point blank (mag tech 9mm 147 gr hollow point) and I shot her again, and again and again and again and she kept crawling. On the 12th shot she finally fell and slowly gave up. Again let me elaborate. 12 slow well placed shots, distance of 5 feet and closer and she showed zero effects until she finally collapsed. My son is 10 years old this year and if you mention 9mm pistol he’ll be quick to tell you about that day and his feelings on the 9mm. Lol

2 years ago, fellow called me and the president of our club, he had just shot an 8 pt in the neck with his 30-06 and been looking for it for an hour could not find it. We went to the club the next 2 days and looked a couple of hours each day, finally found the rest of the deer where the coyote's had not eaten it. Neck intact no hole in it, probably hit him too far back but could not tell that, just no hole or damage to the neck. These anecdotal stories are great fun but do not prove that the 9mm is not equal to the 45ACP. In my desk drawer I have 40 Underwood 147 grain hard cast cartridges that I load in my P365 when I carry it hunting, different mission, different bullets.

the underwood 147 grain hardcast are probably very similar to the bullets Phill Shoemacker killed the grizzly with, different missions, different bullets.

Yoh discount anything that doesnt fit your agenda, effectiveness with proper ammo in each is not far apart but not the same. I saw a man shot a deer in the neck and the bullet exited and broke the offside shoulder the deer ran across a field with leg dangling. Deer was not located until the following morning and was still alive. The bullet missed the vertebrae and broke the offside shoulder without hitting any vital organs It happens

Why don't you actually shoot a deer or pig with your prefered load and get some real experience

No, again you are making assumptions about me. Terminal ballistics are terminal ballistics irrespective of the mammalian test subject. Since you can’t shoot humans in your testing regimen....

Did you spend any time in the military? You assume that I know nothing about defensive calibers because I don’t argue here about this stuff incessantly.

Once again why are we getting emotional about the 45 ACP? I have killed way way north of 100 deer in my life, I have only 3 wall hangers, I shot a lot of meat deer when I had 4 kids living at home. I have lost one deer in my life due to stupidly not sighting in a 270 Winchester. I hit it high. I don’t care if anyone uses any cartridge they want to use, my argument is that there is a reason most agencies are moving to the 9. For what it’s worth I carry a Glock 20 with meprolifht adjustable sights in a Kennai chest holster shooting 200 grain Montana bullets over as much AA#9 as I can get in the case when I hunt. I carry a P365 with 147 grain hardcast for extended hikes. If I thought for a nano second that the 45acp would outperform the 9mm then I would carry the 45Acp! I have a wonderfully accurate 45 shield I will never sell as it’s a pure joy to shoot, and watching the slow WW 230 ball bullets fly when the sun is right is just a hoot. For daily CC the P365 with the 12 round magazine is a good fit where I live and is in line with what everyone else is doing. I shoot HST’s not speers but it might not matter. A solid hit with a 124 grain HST or gold dot would be very very bad, the 45 gold dot might improve on the results a bit but in the end would shoot ability out weight a 10% difference in performance?

I'd carry and do carry tol quality JHP in P365 and would not switch to hardcast unless you are shooting very large animals. For anything in the lower 48 the increase in diameter of a JHP would be much better than a skinnier deeper wound channel.

With the round nose flat point the 45 is preferred

Yep, most of the new ones don't really do anything more that old ones can do now. Bullets and powders have improved. New ones don't anything more other than be NEW.

How did you arrive at a 10% difference in performance?

thank you for your question. Published results generally show that handgun fatalities or handgun's changing someones behavioral style are in the 10-25% range IIRC. There are so many variables, one person might fall down after being shot in the hand with a 22 LR, while another might keep trying to kill you after being shot multiple times with a 45ACP. The fatality thing is more quantifiable, and I have not seen the study in a while but based on a very large number of shootings the difference in lethality between a 45 and a 9mm is not that far apart. There are a myriad of factors that influence this not just the bore size. For instance some people choose a 45ACP, but cannot shoot it that well and might make a hit with it, but not a lethal hit. It is also conceivable that the .1 inch difference in bore size at handgun speeds is not that significant provided both bullets penetrate as deeply.

Any one remember this,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Killed in action
Benjamin Grogan: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm semi-automatic pistol, nine rounds fired. Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
Jerry Dove: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm semi-automatic pistol, 20+ rounds fired. Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.

Wounded in action

Richard Manauzzi: lost control of weapon in the initial vehicle collision, no shots fired. Minor wounds from shotgun pellets.[8]
Gordon McNeill: Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357 Magnum revolver (not FBI issue, but personally owned .357's and .38's could be approved for carry by supervisors, same applies with Mireles's Model 686), six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck.
Edmundo Mireles: Remington 870 12-gauge pump-action shotgun, five rounds of 00 buckshot fired; .357 Magnum revolver; Smith & Wesson Model 686, six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
Gilbert Orrantia: S&W (model unknown, likely a Model 13, as it was an issued weapon at the time) .357 Magnum revolver, 12 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Wounded by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
John Hanlon: Smith & Wesson Model 36 .38 Special revolver, five rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.

Suspects
William Matix: Smith & Wesson Model 3000 12-gauge pump shotgun, one round of #6 shot fired. Killed after being shot six times.
Michael Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington semi-automatic rifle with folding stock, at least 42 rounds fired, S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired, Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired. Killed after being shot 12 times.

20 round magazines and light recoil are appealing.

yep, I am beginning to think about the 5.7 x 28 myself, the gelatin blocks show while not as deep in penetration as the 9's and others the gelatin shows tremendous disruption.

A 9mm Glock exhibits pretty tremendous disruption as well.

[Linked Image]

I've often wondered what the outcome of Miami '86 would have been if every pistol shot that hit Platt and Matix had been made with 45 230 ball, instead of 38/9mm JHP.

I thought we were done thinking of Miami as a hardware problem.

But, come to think of it - this is exactly what I was getting at. Commercial success is not necessarily determined by real world performance. Because we all spend too much time looking for a hardware solution to a software problem.

10mm being issued to Feebs came about directly due to this shootout. 40 came about because Feebs thought the 10 was too much. Now we're back to the 9 because all the agencies that followed the Feeb's lead still are. If somebody would have just took the time and aimed for the head there wouldn't have been so many casualties. It was a training failure on many levels, not a failure of equipment or ammo.

hitting the head is not easy.

Anyone remember the distances of that shooting.

6 agents in the fight were no farther than the length of a car. The 2 agents that arrived after shots were fired were a out 30 yards away

This is from a made for TV movie so I can't vouch for the accuracy but supposedly they tried to recreate the shooting as closely as they could. Pretty nasty business, and that one bad guy just would not go down.

These were two vicious people. I lived in S. Florida at the time and remember the warnings about going shooting alone. The way these guys would get vehicles and weapons was to go to some public shooting spot which even in 1986 were few and far between, usually a couple of people would drive out near the Glades and shoot into a drainage canal. Anyway, these two would drive up acting like another couple of recreational shooters but would wait until someone's gun was empty then rob them and usually kill them. IIRC the big lead the FBI got was when one of their victims either got away or was shot and survived, I forget which, but he was able to give a description of the pair and a vehicle.

Here's another take on Miami:

Per Jim in Idaho...

Good practice is to never leave firearms from shooting position unattended and NEVER go downrange UNARMED.

In Dr Franklin's book a complete forensic account the statement written by agent Mireles says they were using the weapon they were qualified to use by the FBI. They were in a rolling stakeout and the agents that were qualified with submachine guns couldn't get there fast enough.

Agent Mireless also stated that the suspects were shooting back and moving making them a difficult target and that they were hit each time they exposed themselves.

My point here is hits are much more difficult when you're in the line of fire

"Heads up gentlemen, these are bullets, not sh*t turds !" (Haut la tête messieurs, la mitraille ce n'est pas de la merde !).

Colonel Lepic, Grenadiers a Cheval - Battle of Eylau 1807.

Amen to all that. I believe the Silvertip 'almost heart shot' was delivered at roughly 30 yards. The agents shot pretty well for being under incoming rifle fire.

My point to bringing this up wasn’t what went wrong, it was the fact that Matix was hit twice early in the fight in the head and neck by a 357 mag revolver to only be knocked unconscious, Platt had an initial hit with 9mm that punctured a lung and stopped just short of his heart which is credited with being the fatal (or should have been) shot. Matix would survive and rejoin the fight till 2 9mm rounds 1 hitting the spine one just missing. Platt continued until eventually succumbing to the initial wound or the 10 others. To this day the FBI still can’t explain how both were able to continue the fight after the initial wounds.

So the argument of which is better 10mm, 9mm, 45acp or 357 mag and 38+P is moot is it not?

Matrix was hit in the head with a 38 Special +P 158 lead semi wadcutter hollow point not a 357 magnum at least not according to Dr. Franklin's forensic report.
The bullet stopped against his spine, not having enough penetration to sever the vertebrae

a friend of mine use to go shooting in hogg canyon down by patagonia, i.e. mexican border.
left his gun in the tailgate of truck, went downrange with wife to check targets, looked back, herd of illegals at the truck.
were wanting water, no harm no fowl, but he quite going to hogg canyon to shoot.

The report I read states that it was McNeil was the agent who hit Matix in the head and neck.

McNeill returned fire with six shots from his revolver, hitting Matix with two rounds in the head and neck. Matix apparently was knocked unconscious by the hits and fired no more rounds.

Gordon McNeill: Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357 Magnum revolver (not FBI issue, but personally owned .357's and .38's could be approved for carry by supervisors, same applies with Mireles's Model 686), six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck.

Never. Due to the supposed failures of ammo in this shootout, we have much better ammo now in each round, than we did back then. Sometimes the discussion gets stupid, but it is never without some merit.

The old stopping power stats that both Mas Ayoob and Evan Marshall compiled ended with the 40 at the top of the heap and the 357 second after the 357 had dominated it for years. Other rounds, such as the 44 Mag. and 10mm didn't have enough shootings to be considered. Ed Sanow added his index with predictors and rated such rounds and the 44 Mag. and 10 were off-the-charts. 9mm +P+ was ranked very, very high. If anything could be taken from that whole thing, it was that velocity kills. It also appeared to give the lie to Cooper's assertion that 45 Ball killed "nine times out of ten". Actual real world results were like six of ten with 9mm being five-so almost as effective. FBI lab junkies were convinced the whole key is penetration. If that were the case, Ball would rule.

cooper was a colorful old fart, but just like many deer hunters I know, he believed in what he used that had worked and just like deer hunters, fishermen, and other liars often embellished the truth his disciples clung too. With something like 50% or better of people surviving pistol shootings regardless of the diameter of the hit, we can all agree (I think) that pistols are relatively low powered devices compared to even a simple 55 grain 5.56 projectile at 3000 fps. So one ponders if the Miami shootings were no more than a testament to the supposition that "pistols are relatively low powered and many people survive being shot". On the other hand, better bullets are available now that make a larger hole and still penetrate 13-14 inches. While no one can do anything about producing a pistol that shoots a 3000 FPS projectile they can do something about making it expand a caliber or two and still going 13 inches deep. People believe what they want to believe, if they are emotionally invested into something you could prove your point 6 ways to Sunday and they still would not believe.it. Look at all the damn Moslems blowing themselves up because they actually believe their getting 70 virgins or some such horseshit. In closing there are those who will drag a cocked and locked 5 inch solid steel 1911 45ACP around with them their entire life, provided they shoot it and use good bullets they are well protected, there are others that will stuff a plastic G19 with 124 grain gold dots into their belt and call it good, they too are as well protected as the fellow with the 1911. At the end of the day all factors considered they are about equal in performance.

I’m not putting cooper on a pedestal ... but serious question ..
who are you to weigh in on anything he taught or says being false , embellished , or plain incorrect ? (Or anyone else of his ilk ? )

You’re a dude on the internet .

Don’t take my comment too personally


You are still missing the chicken vs. egg thing though ... where you argue all service cartridges perform the same because they all penetrate 13-16 inches (or whatever ) . They do that because fbi test performance is selling ammo these days , and manufactures care tailoring all their projectiles and loads to fall in that spec , therefore making unlike things , more alike .

Well Jimmy 66% of the agents that were hit with a 3000 FPS projectile survived.

You also miss the point with Cooper his experience was with FMJ bullets in semi auto pistols

I don't take your comment personally, I am just a dude on the internet. Then on the other hand I am not making money saying and doing what I am saying and doing, and cooper did make money (ball ammo 90% lethal!!), his gospel was the 45 and the 1911, and he preached that gospel making a buck or two in the process while degrading everything that he did not believe in..don't you think he might have been a bit prejudiced? Then looking at today's relevant data, my opinion has at least some merit to it, in that Cooper's opinion even if it was 100% honest was based on the fact that he did not have time travel so he was stuck with the bullets of his time, we still being here and current find that modern bullets have made a difference. Finally what made Jeff Cooper any different than any other gun writer? They all publish mostly pulp fiction that gets us to want to buy this or that gun. As a lad I heard a story that a 45ACP hit to the pinky would knock you down, and saw cowboy movies with some folks flying backward when hit with the 45 Long Colt. All grown up now I still run into people that buy a 45 acp thinking its the most powerful handgun in existence and buy that over a 9mm cause its more deadly.

Which brings us full circle to what someone said earlier “get out and shoot some animals with handguns and you might see a difference in the service calibers “ instead of having nothing to go on but tv westerns and jelly videos .

Don’t aim for their pinky though

It’s tough to do a direct comparison of cartridges by the reactions of people being shot. Some people are a lot tougher than others. A minor cut or wound will cause some to fall to the ground and go into shock. I’ve seen others hardly react.

One case I witnessed, a guy was shot between the eyes. He was the one who flagged me down and described what happened. I talked to another guy who had just been run through (in the abdomen and out his back) with a bayonet. He was walking and talking and calmly told me what happened. I saw a guy get shot in the chest with a 308 rifle and survived. My cousin got shot twice in the back of the head and survived. You could make a case that the weapons used were inadequate although most guys would have been stopped and would have died.

Is a 150 grain 308 inadequate...is a bullet between eyes and into the center of the brain not adequate... hell if I know. I do know that deer react more when shot with a 45 than with a 9. Or maybe the deer I shot with a 9 or a 38 were just tougher than the average deer

Or we could just pay attention to the 1000’s of tabulated shootings that are cataloged by result and caliber.

You could do that and find yourself with one of the outliers. The problem I have with only a 10% difference in performance is what if I need that 10%.

Regarding Cooper, Askins or Jordan, or people I have personally known from the last great war; the one confidence they had to share was being sent down a literal hole with a pretty [bleep] light and a 1911.

But hey, any of us on the internet or those in a ballistics lab are tougher, more experienced and have all the advantage of theoretical nonsense..
The best part is you get to call bullshit on a veteran of ACTUAL combat.

No combat veteran I've met or read from three wars has ever had anything detrimental to say about the 45 ACP and ball ammo, ever. That outnumbers the FBI agents I've known or in print actually using the round and bullet 6 to none.

Or you could ignore the data of two world wars and countless other conflicts over the last 125 years and find solace in those "tabulations" by a government hack agency....

Jeff Cooper FOS? How do you know this to be true?

This.

Between older male relatives and two patrol sergeants I worked for 35 years ago, I had 6-7 firsthand accounts of 45 FMJ against enemy combatants in Korea or Vietnam. Only two required a second shot (termed 'insurance') and all but one were left for dead on the battlefield, the survivor being carted off for interrogation. Saw it used in three homicides, 1-2 shots and done.

Sarge,

Like you, my information regarding shots fired in anger via the 45 ACP are all universally with ball ammo .

That the people I've known were "prejudiced" in regards to actually using it didnt have the benefit of better bullets or data that basically ignores the events that they lived through probably wouldn't give them much pause for commentary.

I believe all the ballistic arguments aside, everyone is missing the main point. These were two trained, and highly determined soldiers that were hellbent on causing as much damage before they went down......you just can't quantify that factor!

Too much is being derived from gel and statistics, instead of actual experience.
Statistics can be made to say whatever you want them to say

What’s the fun in that ?

9mm guy : “I read a report on ballistics today , 374 pages . I think the 9 would kill something in 3-4 shots , no worries , I’ve got 19 on board . What did you do today ?”


45 guy : “ Shot the hell outta some pigs . Got five . Had 2 rounds left for protection at the store on the way home . (Spits in Texan accent ) “

I personally give much more weight to the testimony of people who've used a round in combat or self-defense (or even hunting) on multiple occasions than I do in lab test results.

You absolutely can quantify that factor. We called them dead-enders but names hardly matter. They don't give two shiiizs about dying and even less about being mortally wounded. They won't hesitate to open fire with the heaviest hitters they can lay hands on, to inflict maximum damage on the way out. People like this are precisely why you train and equip for the worst case scenario.

They're going to be hard to hit while this is going on. Whatever hits you to make had better be hard.

The FBI isn't stupid. They realized the Miami debacle occurred precisely because their first good hits didn't settle accounts. They correctly recognized it as a hardware problem and set about correcting that. Their initial solution was to increase caliber and bullet weight. They overdid it and had to water it down so the lowest common denominator could qualify with it.

The Bureau's return to the 9mm makes sense from a logistics and budget standpoint. Any agency that fields a lot of SMGs would prefer to have their service pistol using the same ammunition . Additionally, the AR-15 is being deployed far more that was in 1986.

When your troops are basically bookworms and lawyers you end up with a bunch of soft-handed non shooters. The FBI qualification is not a cakewalk so if a 9 millimeter helps them qualify, I get that. I trained cops for 25 years. I had very little trouble teaching women and smaller men to handle the 40 S&W, but we did allow the 9mm as an option for those who needed it.

As I have mentioned before, when the FBI changes service cartridges a whole lot of state and local agencies are going to change right along with them. So will a lot of civilian defensive shooters. Just don't kid yourself about what it is; essentially the modern version of that 38 + P lead hollow point load.

I have no backup, no SMG and my carry gun is also my woods/chore gun. Where I live a 12 shot 45 ACP handles that real well.

This talk of battle field accounts reminds me of stories from the Philippines. 38 vs 45 Colt....hence the development of the 45apc..

Spot on Sarge

I blame Obammy for agencies switching to the 9mm.

If it wasn’t for the Great Ammo Famine causing the prices to skyrocket, 40’s would more than likely be top dog yet, or 357 Sig.
Bean counters have convinced everyone with eloquent writings and statistics that the the 9 is the end all be all. I will say there is a place for the 9mm , but not every place.

And how did all the LEO’s of yesterday manage to qualify with 357’s and 45’s. My old Chief Deputy who was 5’3 carried a 1911. He was tough as nails though.

as do I believe actual shootings over gel tests, the number of actual shootings with anything from a 25auto to a 44 magnum are fairly well cataloged. There is not a nickles worth of difference between the results of a 9mm shooting and a 45 acp shooting as an self defense pistol. Its the same thing with everything, anecdotal stories do not trump actual tabulated data. As far as veterans using them, well that's what Uncle Sam provided, secondly the 45 acp is a few dB lower in volume than the 9mm. I would pick a 12 shot 45ACP over any 9mm in a tunnel, you might be able to hear the next ones coming for you if you did.
My woods carry gun is a 15 round 10 mm, just sayin is all.

What data are you referring to ?
How was the data tabulated? Were determined attackers noted? Were hits causing minor wounds given the same credence as more sever wounds if the attacker stopped?
The data that I have seen collected was very flawed

If I recall the Marshall data correctly, which is no doubt a big portion of that which Jimmy is referring to, there was no allowance made for anything other than a one shot stop. That left out a lot of shootings right there. It also didn't consider the size of the person shot, clothing, etc. Lots of variables were uncontrolled, but that's the nature of a compilation as opposed to a test. There were also those who questioned Marshall's truthfulness. I don't remember what Ayoob's parameters were other than his compilation sample wasn't as large as Marshall's.

Just for the record...the last time I saw Marshall's data, the 40 was in the lead with something like 96% one shot stops, with what was then, the best ammo for that caliber and the 357 was only a percentage point or so in back. 9mm +P+ was at 89%, take your pick of JHP from the big three ammo makers. The best 45 ACP was someplace in between. I don't think enough shootings had been compiled to place the 44 Mag. or the 10.

Take note that the above results were not caliber compilations, but AMMO compilations. I don't remember at all which 40 S&W rounds were the best. I do remember on the 9. IIRC the 357 was a 125 grain round, but I forget which one. All were JHP.

there are so many variables, ammo, recoil tolerance/ability to shoot a lighter recoiling gun better, bullets used, part of body hit. One study I saw rated a 22 LR relatively close to a 9mm, and a 9mm was not that far from a 45ACP. All things considered if more people can make better hits with a 22LR then the data is going to show the 22LR as just about as lethal as a 9mm. That said I cannot believe a center mass hit with a 124 grain HST and a 230 grain HST will have remarkably different results.

Here you go Viking.

https://www.guns.com/news/2012/07/17/lthompson-lagarde-test-45-colt-1911

"Bigger bullets leave bigger holes."

Seems reasonable.

As far as the 5.7x28 is concerned....two things contribute to its lack of popularity: the gun is expensive and up until now there was only a single pistol chambered for it, FN’s FiveSeven. Ammo is expensive relative to more common pistol ammo like the 9mm and not available everywhere.
It is also seen by many as simply a glorified .22 magnum though it is far more than that.
Perhaps this will change with the advent of Ruger’s 57 pistol. Less expensive, maybe it will stimulate other ammo companies to start making the 5.7x28