https://www.fieldandstream.com/10-most-overrated-cartridges/

According to David Petzal

Petzal is an idiot.

I'm thinking of the phrase "opinions are like azzholes,,,,,,".

This ^

Never liked him. Too opinionated for me. Can’t back up many of his assertions with facts in my eyes.

Apparently none of you guys can comprehend that Petzal's essentially "trolling," in the same way that often occurs on the Campfire. With magazines articles (though evidently F&S is primarily an on-line rather than paper magazine anymore--and only appears 4 times a year) this means more "eyes on the page," a phrase used in advertising that translates into the ability to charge more for ads.

You've all been trolled--and caught. Which again means more eyes on the page....

That would be correct.

Nope. I've known Petzal very well for around 40 years, and he's very smart. He's especially smart enough to troll the average shooter--who often can't tell whether Petzal has his tongue firmly in his cheek. But that's pretty normal.

Yup, clickbait.

Maybe Field & Stream is allowing Chuck Hawks to ghost write for Dave Petzal?

Nope. Chuck Hawks is a boring writer, which means he's unable to troll.

Petzal isn't a boring writer, which is why he trolls so well.

But he doesn't always troll--though apparently not many readers can tell the difference.

Agreed!

I like Dave Petzel's writing and his dry sense of humor, although I do not agree with him always. I do not agree with any Gunwriter always, even "Mule Deer". He did not offend me one bit and I own one of the cartridges on his list.

My god. Anyone who reads that article and doesn't see the sarcasm and dry humor is not comprehending things well.

I like Petzal, for the most part.

One of the interesting things about "gunwriting" is that many (if not most) readers judge gunwriters by how much the writer agrees with the reader's opinions. This is because almost all avid hunters/handloaders are very experienced with at least a few cartridges and rifles--though they may avoid quite a few others that also work well.

This is one reason I've written articles on a BUNCH of different cartridges and rifles over the decades--and aside from providing useable information, have never written that any round or rifle is a POS. The reason I do this is that, despite some gun-magazine readers saying they'd like to read negative reviews of POS's, 98% really don't. This is partly because many consider reading about POS's a waste of time. Instead they want to read about what works--though some will then bitch that gun magaziines never run "realistic" (negative) reviews.

My writing about a bunch of different rifles and cartridges results in a lot of letters, e-mails, etc. praising me for having the same insightfull opinion as the reader--whether I wrote about the .348 WCF, .257 Weatherby, .30-06 or 7mm Obscure But Wonderful Magnum.

On the other hand, articles like Petzal's can suck in far more readers, the reason magazines (and websites) have been running them forever. But too many such articles become obviously repetitive. Which is why magazines and websites just as often run stuff on why the XYZ cartridge is such an improvement over the old ZYX.

He should've added all the 6.5's to the list...missed the most obvious one!

You just proved my point.

Instead of berating a good author, how about your top 20?
Not in any certain order....
Aagard, Keith, O'Conner, Seyfried, Milek, Ayoob, Barsness, Bodington, Milek, Skelton, Jordan, Cooper, Adkins, Taffin, Roosevelt.....Taylor, Olson...Speed....Sharpe...

LOL ! CREEDMOOR ! 🤪

Now you’ve done it ! 😜

You were doing good till you mentioned Ayoob.

Same technique used to be used in editorials. When infotainment replaced newsprint, spin replaced baiting and was offered as fact.

Radio and tv pundants still use it with some success, but master editorialists are waning.

I didnt even know Petzal was still writing. His articles had some occasional curmudgeon pepper. Better than being bland though.

I much prefer writers who entertain, educate, and inform (thank you Mule Deer) to those who troll. I read that link and am not a bit smarter than I was before reading it.

Just my take,
Rex

Each had / has their flaws.
No one bats 1,000

Agreed other than the 22 magnum... 17’s are bout as worthless as a Micklecky with tits...

"such as the Texas Rangers"

a fantastic piece of trolling!

This thread clearly illustrates the benefits of trolling.

I liked the article. I disagree on a couple and agree on a couple. I’ve always liked his writing. He can be a bit cantankerous but so can I.

BS

7mm RM is waaaay over rated.


280 AI? Absolutely not! It’s a fantastic round that can match the 7mm RM!


😂

That didn't take long LOL

Pot stirring article for sure, I guess trolling is the word. Never shot much for factory 7mm Rem mag but know 1st hand it's effectiveness with quality hand loads. Feel the same on the 17's and the 30 gr V max loads in the 22 wmr are game changers for it. I guess I'm still reading gun articles to find opinions about what is right about this gun or that or how cartridges perform not to hear a bunch of negative sh*t formed and expressed that I find hard to believe. Mb

9mm? You might need a high capacity magazine sometimes.

.22 Magnum? Go the other way on bullet weights. The .45 and 50 gr bullets are very effective on Fox's, Coyote's and large coons.

.30 Carbine? Was better than nothing for the men in back of the line (cooks, mechanics and others) that could not be issued those very expensive 1911's. But it is definitely no battle caliber.

The Korean "ROK's" seemed to do very well with them in Vietnam. Lots of them where I was, and most seemed to be carrying them. miles

That’s a pretty good list right there.

I’ve never cared for Petzal’s writing he has a more superficial writing style. That may have something to do with the magazine that he writes for but his writing usually comes across as cookie cutter and lacking depth to me.

I remember reading an article in "Outdoor Life" eons ago as I recall the predecessor to Jim Zumbo the 7mm Mag was no more effective than the 30-06. Broke my heart.

That list is a pretty good start......

Haven’t we been reading articles like this forever? Petz was asked to write it by FS and presented just enough juice to get folks talking. Funny we humans are. I mean he’s not wrong, in at least a ballistic sense, on several.

I think the telling line in the article is "argue among yourselves. Leave me alone."

I laughed when reading his explanation of the 10mm:

"This round was designed for the FBI when the Bureau found the 9mm woefully inadequate."

Does he not know the truth or is he just repeating something he read on the internet?

Kind of reminds me of the people that ask me "Why did the FBI adopt the 10 mm first and then go to the .40 S&W later?"

BTW, I usually read his stuff when I come across it. I enjoy his sarcasm.

" the high capacity 9mm is necessary in case you're ever attacked by a biker gang while on vacation...." Circa 1979.

I read it and I agree with him.

They have to find something to write about. If you didn't post about the author's last article and you did about this one, then you can understand why he wrote this one. How many clicks have we given it?

I should do an article on overrated gun writers.

Why wasn’t the .270 on the list? 👅

In the modern woke culture it's going to get you canceled for picking on retards.

Petzal’s a hoot. Love his deadpan delivery in videos.

I read both articles. I don’t think my list would differ much concerning overrated cartridges if I were to have written the same article. I disagree with a couple on the list but I understand his logic on the matter.
I do own a 9mm(or two) and one 22 WMR but only because I inherited it from my Uncle. I think improvements in the 9mm round in the last couple of decades have improved it’s lethality along with the various platforms it’s now chambered in.
As for the underrated cartridges, I couldn’t agree more. I own or have owned most of those listed and love them dearly.
Concerning Mr. Petzal, I have no opinion.

I enjoyed the article and I like Petzal. He reminds me of one of my uncles who always knows what to say to get some people's jaws to drop and then he moves on. Sometimes a bit of truth hurts.

I found it interesting, but came away indifferent towards it, as my personal experience with the 7mag over the past 40 years told me he's out in left field on that cartridge. Aside from that, just one man's opinion.

I know what I think of trolls.... Have read enough of his "work". Did not even bother to click the link when I saw the writer and magazine.

MD, You do not have to resort to trolling for readership. You are able to communicate meaningful information through written prose.

Why does Petzal have to troll? Possibly when one does not have anything substantial to say and needs to generate traffic?

CRS, why don't you ask that question to the numerous attention whore/trolls on this board who post 50 times per day? If you wanna know what makes a troll a troll, ask a troll.

From a logical/factual standpoint the write-up is easily assailable, but that doesn't matter given the author's intent.

You are talking about him. He succeeded. I appreciate MDs style, but I am glad there are different flavors out there, even if I don't care for some of them.

this made be laugh and the troll winner !

Off the top rope!

BTW "retard" is no longer the proper nomenclature. Perhaps substitute "special" or "handy-capable".
HAHAHAHA

I guess the only best to objectively counter Petzal's list is to submit your own on this thread. I don't think he was too far off on many of his selections, and the "reasoning" was readable. Ok, how many use the 378 Weatherby??? In some ways, the entire list could be Weatherby cartridges, aside from the 300 Bee.

Make it easy and quick. Post YOUR top 3 over-rated cartridges: (no trolling allowed). We know the result a will offend others because it is subjective, but what the neck. Every cartridges has a niche ( A 45-70 can't compete with a 300 Win mag as a 400 yard elk rifle). Some cartridges just aren't popular ( you habe to be RATED to be considered OVER-RATED) .Fire away. Let's see how you do. T'aint so easy.

Top 3 overrated cartridges: (mine)
1. 357 mag. (give me a moderate-loaded 44 mag anytime)
2. 243 Win. (too big to be small, too small to be big. I'll take the man bun 6.5 CM instead)
3. 327 Mag (not really sure if it is "rated", but I don't get it none the less).

I like Petzal. He's my kind of sarcastic curmudgeon. He also has global hunting experience from which to draw good stories and meaningful opinions. I'd love it if he had a "once upon a time" based, storry column in SA.

BTW, MD, where can I get a reamer and dies for the 7mmOBWM?

You mean "6.5 Handi-capable".
Keep it above the belt guys!

I enjoy Petzal and can appreciate his style. I agree with most of his list. Particularly the 7mm RM.

Be interesting to know:

1. How many of the critics have any real experience with the cartridges they crap on.
2. How many of them have actually shot man or beast with any of them.

Great article! Almost as funny as Pat McManus

Kind of a silly article and mostly meaningless but about what I expect in most mainstream magazines. From the time I was about 15, I figured I knew as much as most gun writers and ten years later, I was sure I did. Fast forward another forty years though and it occurred to me, most of these guys probably shot way more than I did. While I was building rifles, they were shooting them and a lot of these writers were far from stupid. In some cases, it was plain, these writers could out shoot me on the best day I ever saw. So, with the wisdom maturity brings, I am much more tolerant of the fluff pieces and I know they are not always reflective of the writer's knowledge or experience. While the writers may not tell me anything I don't already know, they can often give me new perspective while providing some entertainment along the way. BTW, I'm a 7mm Weatherby fan too! GD

I’d like to sit down with DP and find out out how he really feels. I go for cutting witticisms.

Oh my...

Watch those toes.

Ha!

... especially #10.






GR

When a writer comes out and writes stupid stuff like he did, I make a mental note: Do not read any of his articles again.

However, there is a writer that writes lots of articles on Handloader and Rifle who came out with a rather stupid statement like Petzal did, that is making a statement about how one cartridge is better than another (when he didn't know that I have knowledge that is different regarding his very uninformed and "stupid" opinion). Clearly, he should have checked with me first before writing his uninformed article.

However, I may be one of the 1% who would like to read what is wrong with a certain rifle, pistol, scope, etc. - in particular a small manufacture's equipment that I have little knowledge.

I have my favorite rifles and no one better put them down, ha ha. But I try different manufacture's rifles, pistols, scopes etc. (AKA "stuff") and when I have read nothing but good things about such "stuff" and the equipment is unknown to me. Then I find that the "stuff" needs a lot of work right out of the box, won't feed cartridges, has the wrong twist, won't work well in low light, has parts that break - often or whatever. It is at that time, I wish a person who wrote about such "stuff" would have been more honest in his review.

And as several people pointed out -- 6.5 cartridge's suck!

Dave would have a ball here before he got tired of it. 😉. Probably the same day.

I can’t really categorize his obvious baiting as trolling. Gunwriters are, among other things, entertainers, and are paid to draw readers (and generate internet hits) because that’s the economics of publishing. It would appear that even though the baiting is obvious, fans of his picks are still annoyed. I stopped worrying about what others thought about my choices in cartridges and rifles long ago. Hell, I’ve got two .270s!

I liked this quote from the comments below the article.
"It's like every ridiculous old man comment I hear across the table at gun shows rolled into one comically ingenious piece. But I'm pretty sure this was meant to be published on the Onion's website."

I'll play:
1) 17 HMR - too much for squirrels and not enough ass for groundhogs

2) 223 Remington - The 221 Fireball and 222 Remington can do anything it can do with lighter bullets with less powder and recoil. It does not have enough power to throw the heavier bullets. At best it's a compromise.

3) 243 Winchester - It's never been a consistently accurate cartridge for me. I have owned several and could never keep one. It is the inferior to the 6mm Remington.


I hope I make Petzal proud.

I quit caring what gun writers had to say years ago. I don't understand the need for approval/agreement from a gun writer that many experienced hunters/shooters seem to crave.

I feel the same way about certain forum blowhards.

Not me i enjoy learning new and old things , i really enjoy learning some of the history of rifles and cartridges John Barsness post on 24 hr. campfire and writes in magazines. there are many other gun writers that are also great to read about too , even reloading can help a person .

Praise the Lord, I don't own even one on the list. But I did have 2 different 7mm RMs in the past. Couldn't justify the recoil for the benefit which for my purposes was negligible compared to .30-06 and .270W. He seems to be against sharp shouldered cartridges and I am also somewhat. I owned a 6.5 Creedmoor for a while and it was not smooth feeding in a Savage 16 while the 2 Savage 16 .308Ws I owned chambered up nicely.

I’ve always liked Petzal’s writing and wit.

Keeps it interesting.

Only watched it after reading the responses.


Have or would have several of those.
Can't say I feel he is too far off on his comments.


And such a list is bound to offend.



I could add the 270 and 45acp to the list.
Petzal uses both as good in his comparasons.
To hear some talk, the 270 is everything for everything.
And the 45 can stop a man just by being pointed.
If that isn't overrated, what is?

Notice, at no point did I state they weren't great rounds.
Just that it's common to pretend they are mystical.

CRS

Your last question and hypothesis is:

"Why does Petzal have to troll? Possibly when one does not have anything substantial to say and needs to generate traffic?"


Might it be that it's not D P who is trolling but Field & Stream ?
How strong is their readership? I suspect they need help!


Jerry

I agree JG. However, I 'never' bought 'one' box of Factory 7 RM ammo NOR have I shot 'one' round of Factory 7 RM
ammo. Also in 40 ish years NO ONE has asked me to chronograph 'one' round of Factory 7 RM ammo.

So comments pertaining to Factory 7 RM ammo 'might' be right. I don't know.

OTOH - I have graphed more 'handloads' for 7 RM than I can remember. A LOT.

Being a 'former' Hagel ite, I can tell you the 270 W (which I have & like) can't even catch the DUST of a good Handload
for the 7 RM.

Jerry

What I find interesting is how many hit this lure so hard.

That's partly because so many readers are easily lured, much like a stocked trout, but partly because Petzal's such an experienced angler he can hook even more experienced fish.

I like petzal

I could agree with many of over rated cartridges in Petzal's argument. However, his story about the 30 carbine caliber doesn't follow what a lot of people said about them. They were not a long distance rifle but did a lot up close if you could put the bullets were they were needed. My grandfather who was an engineer loved his more than his 1911 or his M1A 30/06. He had all three in his cat when he was unloading supplies. He also carried it when he was lumping a Browning Automatic Rifle that he carried with ammo and his pack in the battle of Luzon. He was one of two engineer operators who survived out of the five that were involved in unloading at Attu. He shot 10 off of the front of his cat. He never received a lot of recognition for his fight in the war but other people who were there talked about him and how for a smaller guy 5'7" and 170lbs that he was a freaking tiger. He was very intelligent and was the postmaster at Dutch Harbor when they were attacked. He took a BAR and put it up on the roof of the post office and shot down 10 zeros during the bombing of Dutch Harbor. He told us about it on his deathbed. However, my brother-in-law who is Alutiq told us of how the natives marvelled at the Postmaster at Dutch Harbor where they were gathered knocking down the Japanese Zeros. He loved the M1 Carbine because he could haul a lot of ammo and make it count.

Overrated??? ANY magnum......

I wouldn't say that about the 375, the 458 or many others

Hence the reason I did not click on the link and read the drivel

DP just being paid to troll then. Man's got to do what a man's got to do.

I don't know why any body who has a mind of his own care what somebody said about what cartridge is good or bad . you should be smart enuff to figger that out buy your self for you own needs . if you can't maybe you need to not be involved in shooting firearms . just my op .

There may be some validity to DPs proposed list. I think the WSMs were a strange invention meant to sell guns and ammo. The 30 carbine was low hanging fruit that everyone who's ever shot one at another human being who was shooting back would agree that they wished for a bigger rifle. The 22 mag is a stretch as it is accurate enough within it's limited range. Choosing the 7 RM as overrated is an outright lie especially compared to his choice 270 Win. Also saying all .17 cal centerfire rounds are no good is an opinion I do not share.

My picks for overrated would be .223 Rem, 6mm Rem, .270 Win, .300 WM, 8mm RM, 358 Win, 35 Whelen, 375 H&H, .444 Marlin and any Weatherby Magnum other than the .257

Now if I could only sell my opinion as well as he then I'd have something to brag about.

Kickin' dirt on some sacred cows there.
Brave.

1. .458 Lott
2. .458 Lott
3. .458 Lott
4. .458 Lott
5. .458 Lott
6. .458 Lott
7. .458 Lott
8. .458 Lott
9. .458 Lott
10. .458 Lott

6.5x55 vs .260 Remington: and the winner is......

Not the .257 Roy.

Anyone who prints that the 7mm Remington Magnum is overrated is going to generate some interest in their piece. Lol

44mc,

How is somebody who's never hunted with a certain cartridge, or hunted specific big game with any cartridge, supposed to "figger that out buy yourself for you own needs"?

Am not saying Petzal is right, because I don't think he's being serious. But have heard a lot of contradictory suggestions from supposedly experienced elk outfitters about the relative effectiveness of the .270 Winchester and 7mm Remington Magnum. Many have involved a total ignorance of various modern bullets. Have heard the same wide differences of opinion on very similar cartridges from African professional hunters on elk-sized plains game..

From your previous posts I am guessing you don't have a lot of elk experience or hunting in Africa. So exactly do you plan to "figger that out" if you ever get a chance to hunt those animals?

By the same token if an inexperienced shooter thinks that they can trust F&S magazine or the stealth troll writers that they employ to steer them the right way they’re equally screwed.

Petzal and F&S remind me of G&A after they lost most of there talented writers and turned everything into a “pistol Vs. revolver which is right for you?” Or 9mm Vs. 45acp which is right for you?” Article.

Petzal is a hoot.

I wonder if he enjoys happy hour often.

Petzal almost never drinks alcoholic beverages. Have seen him have a shot (one) of hard liquor after returning from a cold day of hunting, but only once or twice. But even sober he's a hoot.

AKA 6.5 Manbun

The manbun is a game killing machine.

So I guess I should go get my Glock 17 and M1 Carbine out of the dumpster. I’m such an idiot! Goshhh...

That's my experience as well. But apparently not many detractors have actually used one much--or the .260 Remington or 6.5x55.

Maybe.

Have been on the Campfire for 20 years now, and have read a lot of posts that don't make much sense. This might rate somewhere in the Top 10.

I think he's definitely talking factory ammo...and eloquently trolling 7mmRM shooters. The main advantage IMO is with the 175. Good handloaded 270 130s and 150s are right up there on it, the 160+...not so much.

THIS>>>>>>

I scrolled through looking for this..............

That was my first, why it was not on the list................

I think we answered the ultimate question of "Why would Petzal write such an article?

Well, there are 6 pages of responses (and more to come). THAT'S why the article was written. People read it, and have opinions (supporting or refuting it). I wonder how many issues were sold? Petzal did his job. The advertisers don't mind one bit.

There are 6 pages of emotive responses. Petzal hit a homerun, whether trolling or not.

It worked.


His next column? "10 cartridges we can do without"
Month after that? "10 most over looked cartridges"
Month after that? "10 most hyped cartridges."
Month after that? "What if there could be only 10 cartridge chamberings? What would they be?

I'll probably read them, and the resultant threads about them on the 'fire, then oil my 30-06 JC Higgins FN m-98 model 50, " the most under-rated rifle."

I guess you need to define 'overrated'..........

I can't ever remember reading or hearing of the 'awesomeness' or the 'over' rating of near half of the cartridges on his list....................

I didn't think the article was executed well, but if all of those cartridges disappeared tomorrow likely I wouldn't notice.

I’ve always found him entertaining and hilarious at times.

MD you are correct on elk & Afk . .but I will never do ether . I was referring to what you learn on your own instead of depending on somebody doing it for you . kind of like being book smart with no common sense

Looks like a do-over of a Richard Mann article…..

Petzal has a edginess to he writing...I like that.
I our region, I remember the hype associated with the 7mm & .264 after they were launched
I hunted with client hunters and friends with both rounds, we took many bull elk alongside the .270 and 30/06. They worked similarly.....identically.
David is just Jerking your chain a tad.
Myself, I don't care for the short/fats in a repeating rifle
There, I jerked the chain ....just a little

We're born knowing. At least we're supposed to be. That's one of my main takeaways from my time on here

We all know something, and yet no one knows everything.
That's why schools exist. That's why various books, magazines and web sites exist. It's called both education and entertainment.
It's never a good idea to figure something out on your own. That's why death and dismemberment occur. You can watch AFV for entertainment from folks who like to figure things out on their own.

I have not read his article!

I have seen other writers writing this type of BS and it diminishes my opinion of the writer. While I admit reading this kind of writing in the past, I just don't care if the writer thinks a 243 is better than a 6mm, a 270 is better than a 280 or a 308 is as good as a 30-06 or even -- gasp -- better. After 60+ years of shooting said cartridges I'm pretty set in my ways and what cartridges I like, thank you.

I feel different if the writer is writing about powders, bullets, scopes, reloading equipment etc. and gives reasons or examples why the writer feels that way. I wish I knew all the powders that are not sensitive to temperature change for instance - I have found some powders that are horrible in this category and I don't want to keep making that observation. I like reading how different bullets act on big game. Which scopes have failed and which scopes are the best bang for the buck.

Powder, bullets scopes change, quite a bit. cartridges pretty much have not made a big change. Sure there are new cartridges, but it's my opinion that many of these new cartridges are quite similar to cartridges we have had for the last half century or in many cases century.

The shallowness of some folks shows through when someone offers an opinion that is not the same as their own. Dem/Comms do it as a matter of policy, but even conservatives can get angry because someone disagrees with their choices. When a dem/com has an opinion, and someone disagrees, they try to find a way to force the other person to change and if that can't be done they insult them and try to discredit them.

Can we think of anything less honorable or stupider then insulting a man because he likes a gun or a cartridge you don't?

As for me, I have very strongly held opinions about what bullets work well and which ones don't and how they pair up with certain cartridge cases. I hold these opinions form over 1/2 a century of hunting and guiding hunters. But the real truth is that I don't care at all what someone else uses, as long as I don't have to be the one to do the tracking if the animal runs off. Speak of all the details you like, but the real truth is that large game can be and has been killed with sticks since before guns were invented.

I for one most often use "less then the best weapon" to kill my game because I like those kind of guns more for hunting. My game is still dead, I am still eating well, and I fill about 85%-90% of my tags. The years I don't fill a tag are fairly rare and if I hunt with a flintlock rifle in regular rifle season, and I still have full or nearly full freezers at home I don't really care all that much if I don't fill the tag. If the freezers are below 1/2 I will put away my flinter or my iron sighted guns and get out a scoped 270, 8X57 9.3 or a 375.

Is a flintlock 62 cal rifle, 44 mag handgun, 357 handgun, or 9.3X57 rifle "over-rated"? How about iron sighted 300 Savage rifle, iron sighted 6.5X54 M/S, iron sighted 270 lever action?

The honest answers for me are "I don't know" and "I don't care"

Neither did the deer, elk antelope or bears.

When asked what I know and what I have seen since about 1964 in my hunting I tell people. If they take my advice that's ok, and if they don't that's ok with me too. I made a lot of mistakes using bullets that were not so good for a lot of years and I learned what works and what doesn't, but if others want to make their own mistakes and learn the same way I did that perfectly ok with me.

It's not a religion to me so I don't care if it is to anyone else.

Another job well done, DP! 😄

If you want to stir the pot, call someone's favorite cartridge "overrated." Only way he could've improved the article was to name the top 20.

Part of his job is to get people thinking. He did that well!

Opinions and @$$holes. Everyone has one.

He is one guy Id like to listen to around a fire. A sense of humour makes the world interesting.

The biggest "tell": that the article is tongue-in-cheek is this line, which prompted an out-loud chuckle from me:



So tell me Dave, just what game animal is the .30-06 too underpowered to take that you've deemed the .325 WSM adequate, but any .338" diameter caliber too much? That .03" gap is mighty wide indeed. Enquiring minds want to know.

Also, the .325 WSM so obscure that I'm not sure anyone has rated it in any way, over or under...

Something tells me Dave Petzal is reading this thread (among others and the 18 comments beneath the article on F&S.com), laughing, with a high sense of success.

I can't blame him, at all.

Absolutely.

Rattle the cage.....

I have been known to do that right here on the 'Fire, just to see what kind of reaction I get.
As a matter of fact, in a different thread recently MD mentioned one of "my" instances that I used to get Big Stick riled up one time. God it was funny .

Obviously he (MD) bit on that bait too, though it wasn't meant for him. To be fair, I am sure I have taken other's bait as well.

Good times!

A lot of the writers might come out and say,"Hey, I know Petzal. He is just starting a bit of a flame war." What Petzal might not consider about his article is that there is a large group of new starting hunters that might take his word as gospel. This is where there is some consideration of some of the seriousness of making an article like this. Most of us have detailed knowledge of many different cartridges and their intended uses in the right spot and know that its the Indian and not the arrow in most of our use of weapons. Modern technology with increased rifle/handgun accuracy, new powders and new bullets can make many of the cartridges of past regain some of their pastiche. He never put in any qualifiers i.e( geographic location, species hunted, regulations, span of old vs new cartridges) probably just for simplicity and article length. JB or CB would not do this. Both have written articles akin to this but they each are much more systematic and specific. This is probably why I cotton to their articles a lot more than Petzal. He is the kind of writer who is like a weekend DIY expert who goes through a lot of nails in his project. He comes off as a smug curmudgeon and I think that that is his intention.

30-30. Most people who still use a 30-30 use it up close on whitetail deer and smaller ungulates. They are very familiar with the cartridge, their rifle and their capabilities and that is that. The same old hunters or hunters with an old family tradition use 300 Savages and 35 Remingtons to great affect.

I have not personally had good experiences with the 7 Rem but that was because of plastic parts on the gun in the first instance and strange circumstances with weather in the second. It is not a bad cartridge for somebody getting into hunting and it has a lot of performance in many of the rifles that have 26 inch heavier sporter barrels and the factory ammo tends to be accurate. It should be noted that it is not legal to hunt Bison in Alaska with a 7 Rem Mag and it is legal to hunt them with a 30/06 with 200 grain bullets.

There is so much hype about 6.5 manbun and 7.62 hipster that I found the article incomplete. 6mm and 6.5 mm Creedmoors are now the preferred bear and moose round for people getting into hunting up here. They also believe that it has some magical ability to be able to outperform other cartridges like the 270 Winchester or the 30/06. The hipster is a very good round but I believe that the 308 does not offer any advantages other than less recoil to a 300 Win Mag. Most 308s are now featherweights and controlling an ultralight rifle is an article unto itself.

I don't believe that the 300 blackout was considered in the making of this article. I see very many hunters coming back from the commercialized caribou hunting catastrophe called the 40 Mile caribou hunt on the Steese bellying up to the optics counter to buy a laser rangerfinder and then bemoaning the big bull caribou who they shot at with their 300 Blackout Sporting Rifle and it got away. I think that hunters who understand the capabilities of their equipment and weapon system do well with them. But I betcha on a nationwide scale that there are many wounded critters that get away from noob pretend snipers who think that they can make this work at 400 yards plus.

The 338 Win mag is also a cartridge that I feel is overrated. Many people buy one because it is the Alaskan or the Elmer Keith thing to do if you are hunting elk in Idaho and they develop a flinch. I would guess that there is a constant some place that shows people who have hunted a long time are buying 338s from new hunters who tried them and sold them off because of punishment and leaving the hunting community.

I probably would get along well with Petzal in real life but he comes off as a bit of a pedantic myopic ahole from his writing. It is like Lee Hoots or Larry Dr. Deer Weinshun who I believe write their bylines between camping trips on guided hunts to high fence game ranches for large critters that get corn stimulus checks from automatic feeders. Maybe it is that he is less personable in his approach. I also get the gun looney's high when JB comes home from Capital Sports with a new but old school beauty of a shotgun. Petzal seems like the kind of guy who doesn't open himself up to those feelings. That is just my take.

Indeed, internet forums might lead a noob to believe that any rifle/scope combo over 6 1/2 lbs. is just too danged heavy to carry around all day while hunting. I would much rather have an 8 lb rig after stalking an elk for three hours, climbing over rocks, ducking under tree branches, and crouching while hurrying through open areas, only to find my only good shot is one where my best choice for a rest is a rock with a jacket tossed over it. That extra pound or two can help tremendously with aiming when shooting under actual field conditions, not off a bench with a front rest and rear bags.



The "long range hunting" thing on internet forums has probably done more damage to big game hunting in North America than any other single hunting trend or fashion in my lifetime. Yes, there are some shooters who have the equipment, regularly practice to become proficient, and can reliably hit game past 400 yards. Unfortunately, after reading about these exploits and seeing them on video, there are probably many more who believe they can but really can't, yet still attempt to do so.



A .308" projectile with a proper bullet and adequate impact velocity is fine for pretty much anything in North America, providing the bullet is placed in the right spot on the animal. A larger diameter bullet with greater mass provides insurance for less than perfect shot placement, which happens sometimes. The recoil of a .338 Win Mag with a 250 grain bullet is fairly heavy, but easily dealt with by an experienced rifleman. It would be a poor choice for a noob with no intention of hunting a brown bear, yet once again, internet forums might lead one to believe it is the minimum caliber for elk.

I enjoyed Petzal's response to this Q and A about the 30-30:

https://www.fieldandstream.com/ask-...zzle-brakes-and-attack-mamba-like-snake/

"...Q: I want to take my next elk with a Winchester Model 94 .30/30. Thoughts? —Brent Houk, Girard, Kan.

A: You could populate a good-​size Rocky Mountain state with the elk that have been killed with .30/30s and .25/35s and .35 Remingtons, and all the other now-unfashionable lever actions and their cartridges. You’ll have to sneak up on the elk if you hunt with your 94. This is called “hunting.” You will probably enjoy it."



Snarky? Realistic? Enough humor to make you smile, and make it interesting? Guilty on all counts. The world is upside down these days. I for one will continue to enjoy his writing. He writes about stuff I like (shooting/hunting), and is entertaining. He's on the same side as us folks. Lighten up and enjoy the journey. If you can do better, go ahead and do it.

I know this thread is about what a dumbazz Petzal is...........but to answer the question. On any list #1 should be 30-378 Weatherby, what a worthless POS it is !!!!!!!!!

I hunted and spoke with a guy in east Montana Missouri breaks territory, who thought the 30-378 was the [bleep] best round around. And this in one of the best places to be able to move closer. Snipers

6.5 -300 WBY is even more cowbell.

+1, classic. I wonder where I can send him one of these?

I think there is a big difference between over-rated and quite effective.

'...Police departments like it because ammo is cheap...'

OR, ammo is cheap because police departments like it...........

'...I knew a former GI who threw his carbine away after he had to put 15 rounds into an SS landser during the Battle of the Bulge before the German realized he was being shot and fell down...'

LEOs have the same problem with the current 'rated' cartridges when shooting people high on crack and such............

That was my first thought. He could have randomly picked any 10 cartridges and this thread would still be exactly as it is currently. Heck his first sentence and even the entire first paragraph pave the way for the subjective nature of the whole article.

'...This is a true beast of a cartridge, and it holds so much powder that, when it was developed in the early 1950s, Federal had to invent the 215 Magnum primer to ignite all the propellant it held. The .378 is a true high-velocity cartridge that fires heavy bullets. It will do everything that Weatherby says it will. It crushes stuff up close and flattens stuff at long range. But it does so at the price of fearsome recoil. The rifle comes back so quickly that you can’t roll with the punch. The very first round I ever fired from a .378 smashed the frame of my shooting glasses...'

I'm sorry............... is the 378 WBY Overrated and fall short of it's billing, OR does it do what it's supposed to do??????

Reading the author:
If you don't understand Petzal's writing style don't bother with Lord of the Rings, or The Aneid......or,

You only listed 18 - Milek was twice!

IndyCA35: I have grown used to the drivel and idiocy espoused by so many of todays "outdoor writers" over the last 20 years that I simply ignore them!
But this latest bit of idiocy rivals even boob brown and small twigs lunacy!
I got only through paragraph two and decided that todays current crop of "outdoor writers" are not worth wasting time on.
And that is sad.
Sheesh.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Aren't you the guy who kept driving around Montana looking for rimfire ammo at the same sporting goods stores, over and over again, during the Obama rimfire shortage?

Hah! That was exactly what I was thinking!

300 Black out, its a turd of a do nothing. The millennial of ammo.

When it comes to hunting rifles there are three writers whose articles I read:
Petzal
Van Zwoll
Barsness

For hunting riflescopes it is Barsness way out in front with Petzal and Van Zwoll a distant second and third.

I love Petzal and what I like most about him is his intelligence, wit and curmudgeonly personality.

Petzal is an idiot

I find it a bit odd that so many adult men find the author so dreamy.


Sure hope any new hunter or shooter that might have been considering one of these cartridges doesn't get ahold of one of these articles and because it's published by F&S believes it to be the end all be all. Seems to me articles like this might do more damage than they do good.

I hope you don’t put much weight on anything printed in Field and Stream

Just another turd article from him !

Ende der Durchsage

Field and Stream has fallen victim to the innanet and globalist ownership as has most print media. They ushered good writers out the door or into retirement as contractors vice paid staff a while back. Petzal is a solid authority on rifles and does have a curmudgeonly slant to his musings. I guess if you don’t understand his style you might not care for his writings. Petzal has forgotten more about rifles and shooting that most of the circus here will ever know. If you don’t like Petzal, you might love Richard Mann….

Sounds like a hell of a business model. Have your "expert" write an article that makes him sound like a fool, then tell your readers they just aren't smart enough to understand how wise he is. In a few years, they can all sit around talking about that one time they got a lot of hits on their quarterly, online-only magazine.

dassa,

Contoversy has been part of publishing business models since the invention of the printing press. It's also part of the core of 24hourcampfire.com. Luckily, Rick doesn't have to pay members to write controversial posts, because they do it for free.

Yes, F&S is no longer a print magazine. I was not surprised when that occurred, because apparently none of the several successive companies that have owned it since the 1980s recognized the trend toward specialty magazines (and eventually websites), which would dominate the market. This would essentially kill outdoor magazines that tried to cover "everything"--hunting, target shooting, fishing, camping, boating, etc.

Field & Stream and Outdoor Life are prime examples--but one of the companies that owned Field & Stream also aided the demise of both magazines by purchasing Outdoor Life--a direct competitor. Don't remember exactly when that occurred, but do know that in the 1990s the offices of both magazines were across a hallway from each other, in a huge downtown New York City office building. Exactly how this was supposed to work to either magazine's advantage was something of a mystery. I would guess it had something to do with advertising sales, since back then Madison Avenue was still the core of the ad world.

During this period the ownership also failed to recognize that the days of producing such magazines from the middle of a huge city where people who really like to hunt, fish, shoot, etc. would refuse to work was also a losing proposition--especially after modern electronic communication made it easy to edit magazines from any place the Internet worked. Several of the specialty magazines that were killing F&S and OL already allowed their editors to live wherever they wanted to, so tended to be able to hire editors who knew more about shooting, hunting, fishing, etc.

I started writing for F&S in the late 1970s, and became a staff writer in the late 80s, when the magazine was at its peak, selling something like 2 million 150-200 page magazines a month. By the early 2000s the downhill slide was underway, due to competition from specialty magazines, plus the Internet. I resigned, even though F&S was still publishing paper magazines every month, because specialty magazines were growing--and offering just as much pay.

A good example is the third general outdoor magazine that existed back then, Sports Afield. Like F&S and OL, it was also starting to lose money in the 1990s, but was then owned by the Hearst Corporation, which tended to refuse to admit one of its publications was failing. Hearst kept pumping money into SA, until even they realized it was a victim of specialty publications. (Somewhere in there Hearst also turned SA into a backpacking, mountain biking, etc magazine, which resulted in it losing even more money.

They sold it to Bob Petersen, the guy who started Guns & Ammo, one of the first specialty shooting magazines, and also Petersen's Hunting, which became one of the leading specialty hunting magazines. Bob gave up on it within a year or two, selling it to the present owner, who turned it into a specialty big game magazine, the reason SA still appears in regular print editions.

But even specialty publications regularly run articles intended to stir up controversy, which is easy to do among people who hunt and shoot, because so many have strong convictions (and emotions) about their favorite firearms and cartridges. And controversy tends to provide publicity--as it did here, and quite easily.This instance, however, probably won't help F&S,much, because the magazine still clings to trying to cover hunting and fishing--the primary reason it started down the long road to becoming a quarterly on-line magazine, and sharing some writers with Outdoor Life. But this thread did result in a lot more "hits" for the Campfire, which helps Rock Bin.

hilarious column ...

MD,
As one of your readers, I find that I agree with you more than you agree with me. Don’t you agree?

Agree!

Though as I pointed out to another well-know gun writer--who's somewhat younger than I am, and also named John---if you write on a wide variety of subjects, most readers will find several where they agree with you--and think you really know your stuff!

He says the 7mm Rem Mag is overrated. That tells me he hasn't spent a lot of time afield with one. Since its inception in 1962 it has been one of the top cartridges in the sales of rifles, ammo, components etc... in the world. There has to be a reason for it. Is it the best overall round? Nope. That honor goes to the 375 H&H. But the 7mm Rem Mag is a very, very good round.

Yo proved Petzal's point, if the sales figures are high it's overrated

In assessing whether I should agree or disagree with a writer, or whether he really knows his stuff, his conclusions are not as important to me as how he got to them. Credibility is everything; lose credibility and you’re through. And, that goes for far more than writing.

1. If the 7 RM didn't perform well on a wide variety of game & varying circumstances... it would NOT continue to sell as well.
Sales numbers tell the story how hunters feel about it.

2. I've had more 300 WMs & 7 RMs than any other magnum rifles. Had a Ruger 77 OG in 338 WM for a SHORT time.
That stock with that cartridge was BRUTAL. My 8mm RM is easier to shoot than that OG 77.

In the last 5 yrs I have come to realize that for Deer (all), Elk, Moose, & Bear the 7mm RM is my pick for ONE rifle for
Big Game. 458 Win Mag (Mr. Phil) says the 30-06 is entirely adequate for "Brown Bear".....so the 7 RM is more.
I'm now 71 and will NOT hunt the big bears--- Deer, Elk & Moose are well covered by the 7 RM.
It deserves its respect.


Jerry

The 7 mag is over rated
The 6.8 MSM is the schidt and better

I don't enter a battle of wits against the UNarmed.

Jerry

This thread's entertainment value is perpetual.

What are the readership/blogger numbers for Field and Stream?????? Is it higher than the campfire???

I agree with most of the cartridges listed! I have a soft spot for the 7 Rem mag! But it really doesn't do anything special! Funny how people are sure their favorite, is the cats meow! To bad mouth a writer because he got your goat,well that just makes me grin all over!

No, if the sales numbers are high that means it is very popular and it is popular because it is a good round. Lots of people buy them and shoot them. There is a reason for that. You do grasp that concept right?

There is a reason for it. Because its overrated

Petzal has plenty of experience with the 7mm Remington Magnum, along with a bunch of other cartridges in the same basic class, including the .270, .280, 7mm Weatherby Magnum, .30-06, etc.

I would guess that one reason he calls it overrated is the "magic" many hunters considered it to have when first introduced. Here in Montana a lot of 'em would often roll their shoulders, almost flexing them, while saying, "I shoot a SEVEN." They thought it was far more powerful than the .270 and .30-06, and some of 'em thought it was more powerful than the .300 Winchester Magnum. I have no idea why.

One of my good friends in the gun-writing fraternity got one when he was working at his first adult job at a Montana sawmill in the 1970sl. He handloaded the Speer 160-grain Mag-Tip with a load the Speer manual of the day said got over 3000 fps. He killed a bunch of game with his Seven, including elk, deer, and some big black bears, and it knocked the snot out of 'em.

When he started gun writing, he of course bought a chronograph, partly because they were becoming more affordable. He found out his magic load was getting around 2700 fps at the muzzle, about like a warmly-loaded 7x57. He also found a lot of the factory ammo of the day (but not all) was getting .270 or .30-06 velocities. The reason his Seven worked so well, of course, is that he was good shot.

I have nothing against the 7mm RM, and have not only had at least one of various makes in my collection for many years but killed quite a bit of game with the round--and seen hunting partners do the same, both in North America and Africa. It's a fine cartridge, but have never found it quite as magic as many regarded it in the 1960s and 70s, when a lot of hunters judged cartridges on the size of the case (and also perhaps the magic magnum belt) rather than actual ballistics.

For many years I wanted to hate the 270 WCF, then I compared it with the 7mm RM and found it largely identical. Except the 270 would accept another round down in the magazine. No creature you can shoot with one will know the difference from the other. Begrudgingly, I have become a fan of the 270 WCF. From 130 grain to 160 grain, it is a killer.

Nah, he's got a good sense of humor& likes to poke fun................besides, he's 100% right about the 378 Wby. Absolutely the most wicked fast, sharp & painful recoil of any rifle I've ever shot.

MM

Great summary of the 7 Mag..........couldn't have said it any better myself.

Perfectly good round if you like it's recoil, but magic it is not................good bullets & better shooting make it work.

MM

Most average / typical shooters can hit more consistently with a 270 than a 7 Mag....................that alone makes it more effective for most hunters.

MM

Yep. IF the 7mm RM is actually getting "magnum" velocities, the recoil isn't exactly fierce, but in a typical rifle it's somewhat above the level which some (not all) hunters can tolerate.

In fact, I find myself unwilling to put up with as much recoil as I did when younger. Can still shoot a .375 H&H accurately, but don't hunt with one much anymore because that sort of power isn't required for much big game.

And after experimenting with Reloder 26 in the .270 Winchester a couple years, to see if 26 was indeed the new magic velocity powder, I found it could indeed push 150-grain bullets to around 3100 fps using published data, even from the 22" barrel of my O'Connor Commemorative Model 70 Featherweight--which with scope happens to weigh exactly the same as Jack O'Connor's favorite Model 70 .270, eight pounds. Eight isn't considered a real lightweight anymore, but I found that with RL-26 and 150s my rifle kicked more like (guess what?) a 7mm Remington Magnum. And I'd never seen a .270 150 Partition "fail" on a big animal because it was only started at 2900 fps--and that includes elk, similar-sized African plains game, and the quikest-deadest bull moose I've ever seen killed. So decided that if I want 7mm RM ballistics I'll use a 7mm RM, not a .270

Petzal definitely hit a home run with his byline. I would again state that the proof is in the pudding with my comparison to JB. John does what a lot of very good writers, the favorites(JOC, EK, FA, PS, CB and even TW) do and it is the stuff of the hot stove league that drives home what I like about good gun writing. He has very concrete details(I take a hit and say that EK was a bit more about the story) but does something that I don't get out of Petzal. I know JBs guns. I know that he likes his NULA 30/06 and that he owns a 270 JOC that I like too. He has sold some of his guns but he is into drillings and european doubles now. He could and probably still does travel the world but he has been there and done that and concentrates on the finer elements of life in Montana before the Californios(Liberal expats that are invading Bozman and Butte) muck up the country. Hell, I know a lot of the guns that his wife Eileen uses. He takes you along on the trip. Craig and Donna do too. I not only know about Phil's guns but I know what his kids use. I have no clue what Petzal uses and it seems that he has no favorites. I know that Ron Spomer loves his lightweights. Petzal, as I have said, knows a lot more about guns than I do and is probably a nice guy, but I get a glimmer or glint of Russell Annabelle who was a fantastic story teller until you find out that he appropriated stories like Peter Capstick from bars and taverns throughout the north.

I have what used to be good friend(prior to his present wife) who was a fantastic writer(still is but continue following) who could have been one of the best outdoor writers of all time. I say that with an understanding of what is good and what is trash. He still has four or five books and probably 300 or 400 articles that are all very popular. He hunted throughout the arctic and even in other countries and you knew about his 243 sako mannlicher that he used to great effect. He wrote about handloading and he even developed loads for his rifle with his audience along. He wrote very well for about 10 years and then out of his solitary bachelor life, he married a liberal. He is now the freaking torch bearer for wolfsong and is a complete bunnyhugger. This guy who I went on winter sheep hunts and fall caribou hunts is as green as a girl scout. He still writes a monthly byline but the energy and the personal voice of his writing is gone. His present wife took his balls and he lives like a house cat in southern Florida writing about his halcyon days in the North. That is what I get from Petzal. He is one of those guys who believes unequivocally that he is right and is the expert. He has quit learning. Right now, it is the golden days of outdoor writing, tons of new hunters have entered the woods. I believe that we will squander this time. That is why I was a bit pessimistic. I probably would like Petzal a lot but he comes off as a know-it-all.

Exactly where I've evolved to.

All my magnums below 338 caliber are gone & I've killed more stuff with the 270 & 150 grain Partitions than with all other BG cartridges combined.

MM

M M - What you said is true for a lot or some hunters, no argument.

For Me, Noticeable Recoil BEGINS with my 8 mm Rem Mag. 80 grs - IMR 4831 - 200 gr Nos, 3100 FPS.
JRS wound up close to that with 220 gr bullets.

** Again - My load in the 700 BDL is less punishing than the 338 WM in a 77 Tanger (OG). I've experienced that.

I have absolutely NO trouble shooting my T3X Lite SS 7mm RM. Not only have I killed WT but also coyotes.


Nov 23, 2020



I never think about recoil with that gun 'before' or 'after' making the shot. I've made kills on WT & coyotes out to 300 yds

My load in MY rifle is only +/- 8 " low at 400 yds. ( 3" Hi at 100 yds ) That is what I like about it.


As we all know (I think) recoil tolerance is an individual thing.

Jerry

7.62x39

I grasp that the 7 mag has been down loaded since its introduction and was not over rated until the down loading of the cartridge. The 7 rem mag has about the same capacity as the 7mm bea and should have about the same velocity

The 7mm Weatherby is capable of somewhat more velocity, due to the "freebore" (longer throat) than the short throat in the 7mm RM. SAAMI also allows the 7mm Wby.. a 65,000 PSI Maximum average pressure, versus 61,000 for the 7mm RM. This, plus the 26" barrels often used on Weatherby rifles, often results in a 100+ fps advantage tor the Weatherby.

And as I have noted a few times here and there, everybody "knows" another 100 fps of muzzle velocity makes a VAST difference in "killing power".....

Coors Light is very popular, but that doesn't make it good beer.

No it doesn't make much difference in killing power, a magnum should have magnum velocity. The 7mm original got 3070 fps with 175 grain bullet according to the chronograph rest from Speer in 1969
Throating issues seems to be why the 7 mag was watered down

It's a statistical issue actually.

Jwp,

Dunno about any Speer chronograph test in 1969. Where did you find that?

But my #6 Speer manual (published in 1964) includes a big list of chronograph tests of factory ammo in their test rifles. The 175-grain factory load got 2990 fps from a Remington 700. The 150-grain Remington ammo got 3135 fps.

MD needs a sarcasm emoji too.

😁

1969 manuel. Throated correctly the 7mm rem can produce excellent velocity. In terms of killi game well the 7X57 and 7/08 does that well

Kind of hate to tell you this, but the early Speer manuals didn't use actual pressure-testing equipment--and that continued for quite a while. I eventually figured this out with a lot of research, including Jack O'Connor's more obscure writings..

They did buy copper-crusher equipment, but apparently nobody working there could figure out how to use it correctly. They got widely varying results--I would guess because they didn't test in consistent temperatures. Have visited the Speer plant in Lewiston more than once. Lewiston regularly gets over 100 degrees during the summer, and sometimes under zero in winter, and the original buildings were NOT well-insulated, much less temperature-controlled.

So instead Speer used traditional pressure "indicatiors," primarily measuring case-head expansion. All of these have been proven to be inaccurate with modern pressure equipment, mostly because brass varies quite a bit in hardness. Which is why a lot of older manual data has been toned down, and not just from Speer.

I somehow missed getting a copy of the 1969 Speer manual, but do have the 1974 (9th) edition. By then they had decided to use actual pressure-test equipment, probably at the urging of SAAMI. The maximum velocity for 175-grain bullets is 2875 fps, from a 24" barrel.

I have been able to beat that by a little bit with newer powders, but not by much.

I realized this^^^

I was referring to a section where they chronographed factory ammo

Interesting. What length barrel?

Just looked at Hodgdon's data for 180-grain bullets in the .300 Winchester Magnum, and from today's standard 24" barrel they don't list any 180-grain loads that get 3070 fps.

I know, I load 81 grains of H-1000 in my 300 for about 3070 fps in a 27" barrel

Not surprised! Have also loaded the .300 WM with a bunch of wonder powders.....

Uhh, when did we change from 7 RM to 300 WM ?






Interesting things happen in elderly minds.

I know from personal experience.... I have one.


Jerry

We didn't "switch" from the 7mm RM to .300 WM. I did make a leap, however: The .300 Winchester is capable of higher velocity than the 7mm Remington with the same bullet weights, primarily due to the larger bore, but also due to having a little ore powder capacity.

I was pointing out that even though Hodgdon lists a lot of powders for 180-grain loads in their data, none of them get the muzzle velocity Speer claimed for 175s (3070 fps) from the 7mm RM in one of their older manuals. This is another indication that Speer was NOT actually pressure-testing their loads for a long time.

Ok, I understand that and the comparison.

Here are some loads from Nosler # 7

1. 7 RM - 175 gr



That someone autographed.





SO... 3000 fps is achievable with 175 gr bullets in the 7 RM.

Also - the 160s, esp the N P doesn't have any flies on it.






Back in my earlier days, cough cough - Hagel, I know that 3150 fps is achievable with 160s.
?? I don't know about that Pressure ??
I didn't blow any primers and I didn't expand any primer pockets after 4 RE loading.

The 7 WILL perform.

Jerry

There is no bad cartridge.

In the Nosler Manuel the 280AI with 160 grain gets 3045 FPS using 59.5 grains of Viht N560 or 3043 with 61.5 grsins of IMR7828

Petzel has a point, now with a correct throat the 7mm rem mag could do what was claimed when introduced