I bought a box of the bullets because that's the only ones that were available for a 444.I loaded 20 of them,crimping at the cannelure, only to discover they wouldn't function thru the Marlin.Upon calling Hornady, I was told the cases must be trimmed 1/10 inch! I guess the loaded ammo uses special cases.

I returned them and they are supposed to send me a box of 265 FP.

They seem to be a solution looking for a problem.

Anybody know if they are considered a success by Hornady?

I can't speak on behalf of Hornady, but I'd wager if the bullets were a flop they'd quit producing them.

And while I've never loaded a flex-tip, I thought it was well known they required cases trimmed shorter than standard. Not a big deal if you keep a batch of brass for them seperate from the others. Of course, everyone must decide for themselves if it's worth the hassle. Apparently, you decided "no".

That was good of Hornady to mail you a trade, though.

I load 160 gr flex-tips and 140 gr monoflex for my 30/30. I believe they are a big improvement over flat nosed bullets. At a chronied 2550 fps out of my 30/30 and a decent ballistic coefficient, the 140s are pretty impressive.

Does the BC on a 30-30 really matter?

If the farthest shot you might ever encounter would be 100 yards, then no, the BC wouldn't matter much.

If you thought you might encounter a shot out to 200 yards, then yes, BC would matter.

For folks who always hunt the woods where the shots are going to be limited to 50 or 75 yards give or take, it doesn't make any difference. If someone might occasionally set up on a powerline, old logging road, or some other opening, I can see some interest in extending their effective range by 100 yards.

I remember being on a public hunt several years ago where a guy shot deer two days in a row (one each day) with a .30-30 at a range of about 200 yards (that was the distance from his assigned stand to where the deer crossed a road that he was allowed to shoot down during the controlled hunt). He didn't find either deer despite reaction from both deer at the shot and extensive searching by him and the Wildlife officials who were overseeing the hunt. He said there was some blood where the deer were when they were hit. I was kinda puzzled about why both deer got away until a few years later when I ran some numbers on .30-30 ballistics and found that he was probably past the range at which his bullet would expand reliably. He might have recovered one or both of those deer if he had been using a flex tip bullet (with higher BC) that carried enough velocity at 200 yards to expand reliably.

The Hornady 150 gr .308" Round Nose Interlock has a BC of .186 while the Hornady 160 gr .308" Flex Tip has a BC of .330. Even if the 160 gr FTX starts 100 fps slower than the 150 gr RN, the 160 gr FTX has somewhere around 50 yards more range for a given minimum impact velocity. With the Hornady LEVERevolution 160 gr FTX ammo, the listed muzzle velocity is basically the same as for the 150 gr RN standard load, so you would get around 100 yards more range for a given minimum impact velocity.

The older Marlins also may need to have a different lifter installed for the FTX bullets. The newer Marlins (pre Remington anyway!) don't seem to have an issue.

What are we talking here 2.5 inches ? A competent hunter can easily adjust for that. If we were talking 9 to 12 inches it might be another story. I don't need no Hypevalution bullets.

The guy at Hornady seemed to think I should have known known they require shorter cases, as well.I'm not sure how I was supposed to have come by this information.

Seems like it would have been a simple matter to put a note on the box of bullets saying something like:

"Hey,don't buy these unless you have a lathe.You're gonna wear your ass out trimming your cases by hand".

And........ it turns out that they don't have any 265 gr FP bullets to send me.But they are gonna make some more.No matter, it ain't a rifle I'll use much anyhow.

You would have know had you consulted the Hornady reloading manual which clearly states a shorter trim length is required.

I'm a fan of the 325gr ftx in my muzzleloader. Real hammer at 2300fps.

Compared to a flat nosed bullet? Yes. Take a look at my chronied velocity.

You know, I bought their sixth edition which is a two volume set, and priced accordingly. It wasn't until I got home and took off the wrapping that I found the second volume was actually worthless to me. It is just drop tables for their bullets.

The drop tables in the Nosler manual are a lot easier to use.

Confession time : I load lots of Sierras,a few Speers,a bunch of Barnes,and an assortment of cast bullets, all without owning a manual from those companies.

It's a wonder I'm still alive.

That right there is a load of hooey. I've killed six deer beyond 200 yds. with my .30-30. None went further than 80 yds. after the shot and all were one shot kills. It isn't difficult at all to hit them at 200 yds. with RN bullets {150 yd. zero}. The public land hunter in your story above didn't recover his deer because he didn't hit vitals.

To make matters somewhat more confusing, not all of the cartridges require that the case be trimmed under the normal length. I have loaded some for my .30-30 and did not have to trim the bag of new RP hulls I put them in to make them function properly.

The newer Hornady manuals do indeed specify which cartridges require extra trimming. The .444 Marlin, and the .45-70 are a couple of them. I am thinking the .44 Magnum or the .45 Colt do as well, but I am going from memory.

The good news is that Hornady only sells one manual at a time now. I started picking up their manuals when I noticed that a large percentage of the bullet boxes on my bench were red. I am hoping that Sierra will put out a new manual in the near future. I despise working with that big three ring binder arrangement they put out last time, but they seem to be stuck on that setup.

If you have photos of any of the bullets from those six deer, I would certainly be interested in seeing them.

I don't know where he hit those two deer, I didn't see the shots myself, but at 400 ft elevation (which is roughly the elevation where we were), a RN bullet from a 20" 30-30 barrel is going pretty slow at 200 yards - around 1500 fps for a standard .30-30 150 grain load. Even for bullets intended for .30-30 use, that's kind of slow to expect consistent expansion.

170 gr Partitions in a 26" barreled 30-30 WCF @2400 fps and 265 gr Cast Performance LFNGC's in a 38-55 WCF @1900 fps have been all I have ever needed in peep sighted lever guns for longer range shooting, prefer all lever shooting inside 100 yards.

Bolts w/scopes and pointy slugs for range stretching.

Gunner

I have never shot any game with the flex tip in my .444 Marlin but from the reports I've read here and on Marlinowner it sounds like the .444 Marlin and .45-70 guys are not a big fan of them but the .30-30 and .35 Rem guys love them.

They are constructed on lighter side and perfect for deer but it seems the .444 and .45-70 guy are usually fans of heavier, stronger jacketed and cast bullets for elk and moose.

Regarding the Hornady manuals with the flex tip, the 35 Remington loads were reduced to work with the new flex tip. They should had listed the bullets separately.

Drop isn't what he is talking about...


I'd like to also mention that, 30-30 cases don't need trimmed to use the FTX.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. A 12 gauge shotgun will launch a load of 00 buckshot at 1325 fps at the muzzle. As you know these are just round lead balls that weigh roughly 60 grains. Just one of them will kill a deer at 50 yards or so if it hits it in the lungs. A 150 grain 30-30 round going at 1500 fps has a lot more going for it whether it expands or not and will kill a deer graveyard dead if placed in the right spot. Most likely the guy you are talking about made bad shots or possibly hit the deer in a vital spot and lost the blood trail....which can happen with any and all calibers. I think he had enough gun.

I'm with you on the Sierra manual.I won't have one.I did buy the first edition Swift manual since I was fooling with the Scirroco at the time.I haven't opened it in years.

Actually,I use the Hodgdon manual more than any other.Barnes is real good about faxing load data for particular bullets,so I've never bought one of their manuals.

I wonder how much one could shorten a case below SAMMI specs and still use the same cartridge name?

444 Marlin Short do have a certain ring to it.

I'm finishing up a box 200gr .358's for my 35 Whelen. No complaints here.

The fact that the 45-70 case needs to be extra short - in effect ruining your brass - makes them a ridiculous and dumb gimmick for that cartridge in my view.

I bought a box 2.5 years ago and other than a few experimental shots the box is still near full. Never would have bought them had I known the fact they had to be extra short. But I was new to the cartridge and got talked into it by the bloke at the shop. Quite possibly he either didn't know either or was trying to shift a dud product.

your just [bleep] around with number. yor trying to compare a 150's BC with a 160's BC.
lets take the FTX with a max load of CFE223...whats it a 2300MV? IF your using a 24" BBL. SO at 2300. I can get the sierra 170 FN to 2300 with a max charge of LVR.
BUT i am going to give you the advantage. Im going to give you a 100 FPS drop since I want to show what is like with a 20" rifle.
with the 170 at 2200, when zeroed at 170 yds its 3" high at 100 and 3" low at 200.
with the FTX at 2300, when zeroed at 190 yds its 3" high at 105 and 3" low at 222.

WOW... what an amazing advancment is bullet design.

anyone who takes to the deer woods with a rifle and knows that there may be 200 yards shots wouldnt be smart to carry a 30-30. If thats all they can afford or if thats what they are bound and determined to use then so be it. but a little rubber tip on the end of a bullet isnt going to make 2 chits of a difference if you cant hit it. And if you can hit it a cheap ass cor-loct or a chunk of soft lead is going to kill it just as quick.

45-70/444 marlins where I live are used during what we now call the primitive weapon season. Single shot break open rifles, replacing what was for us black powder season. Increasing the gun sales and license sales in the states who have opened this up dramatically. I am sure there are some folks running around our woods with lever action 444/45-70's but for the most part when rifle season opens people put the big bores down and pick up there bolt , auto loader, or there 30-30's. So is the bullet a gimmick? in the 444/45-70 I would say yea. There is not real improvement to be had from what ever the bc of the flex tip give the two big bullets. Maybe why the lever guys aren't using them. Cousin of mine shoots the flex tips in his 30-30 marlin and loves them. says they shoot better in his gun than any of the flat/round nose factory combos he has tried. but lets face it just about everything brought out in the last few years has been a gimmick. Sells of rifles and ammo in this country are all about gimmick. the 30-06 has been around for over 100 years, and it can kill any animal in the United States. Why in the heck do the factories make anything else?

Of all the bullets I have tried in the 30-30, the 160 FT bullets are the most accurate, and the most consistent. That is enough for me to shoot them.

Also I bought by accident a few boxes of the 160s designed for the 308 marlin ex. I use these in my HK91,M1A, and a Sako 308, with 41 grains of IMR 4895. All three of these rifles love the load.

Ringworm,

Can you show me where I ever mentioned trajectory? With accurate rangefinders and modern optics, trajectory is irrelevant for this discussion, which is why I didn't mention it.

Impact velocity is where the concern is - whether there is sufficient velocity at a given range to get consistent, reliable expansion. If you're fine with your bullet not expanding (so that it behaves like a FMJ or a nonexpanding solid bullet), then don't worry about it, but most people want to get reliable expansion so they get the desired end result - a deer that is down quickly and able to be recovered.

yeah, I will take the 170 FN all day long over the FTX. But I dont carry a 30-30 to places that I may have 200 yard shots, sooooo... yeah its not really relevant for me if the bullet is going to expand at 1300-1400 MV.
Dont get me wrong. I like hornady products and I think they are really doing great things to improve bullets that average shooters can afford.
I just think that trying to make a 30-30 into a 308 is a waste of time.
dragging it out to a 24" barrel and loading up hot plastic tipped bullets just to grab an extra 30-40 yards? why not #1 carry a 308 or #2 get closer?
For the record. I have a DRC custom 30-30 that absolutly loves hornady flat nose. groups them into nice little cloverleafs and even though the 17" barrel cuts my velocity down a bit, i didnt spend the money on it trying to make it a beanfield set-up.

All I use in my Marlin 336 30.30 is LeverEvolution...and last year switched from the 160s to the 140 GMX with its flex tip.

With the 160s, sighted in 3" high at 100 yds, it's dead on at 200 yds. And if I'm up to it, my Marlin will shoot 1" groups with 'em. (It's scoped...)

IMHO, this ammo turned my rifle into a legit 250 hunting rifle. Over my 40 odd years of hunting/shooting a 30.30 has never been considered better than a 150 yd rifle at best.

What's important is that this ammo holds up at 200 yds in energy, and is still pushing 1000 ft/lbs at 300 yds.

http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-160-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/

Given that 1000 ft/lbs is widely regarded at a good minimum for deer, how is this not a terrific improvement???

Federal Nosler 170s don't come even close to matching downrange ballistics.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=302

Tad ironic that just about every cartridge under the sun has been "Ackley Improved" to gain usually about 100 ft/sec, but ammo available over the counter that can add upwards of 400 ft/sec downrange, and thereby lift caliber/rifle that's been around for 100 years to a whole other playing field, is no big deal.

Personally, I tip my hat to Hornady for thinking outside the proverbial box and breathing new life into lever guns.

And from what I've read about lever actions sales since the LeverEvolution came out, I don't doubt the folks at Marlin regularly send some hugs and kisses their way, too.

yes. You are right.
its a monumental achievment...
It will save, literally, dozens of steps.
Kudos to hornady. I cant imagine all the deer that could have been killed if only someone had thought of this 50 years ago.
Such a shame...
I think I am going to start loading 170 flat nose bullets in my 308 steyr tactical out of pure remorse for questioning the end result practicality of double the price bullets and extra short brass.
DUH! stupid me...

It's tough to recover bullets that go all the way through and every one did, including the one that broke the onside shoulder going in and exited the far rib cage at 314 yds.. That was a handloaded 150 gr. rn core-lokt sitting on top of 33 gr's. of IMR 3031. That one made it all of maybe 40 yds. before it folded up. The fact is, you ain't got a clue how little it actually takes to kill a deer with a shot through the lung cavity so here's one for you. I've killed several with 40 gr. .22 WMR hp's through the lungs at 25-75 yds. and none went so far as 100 yds. after the shot. I also killed a couple with 38 gr. HP's from a 5mm Remington magnum rimfire. One forkhorn buck shot through the shoulder blade from 60 yds. and damned if the little bullet didn't exit !

Actually the bullets are about five bucks a box higher than the Hornady 170 grain flat nosed bullets. That is not anywhere near the twice the price that you have stated.

expansion is overrated. You hit an animal in the vitals with a .308 caliber lead chunk and your going to kill it.
yes, Nancy, even at 1400 FPS.
You guys forget that the original loading for the 30-30 was ...UH...160 grain lead bullet at 1400 MUZZLE VELOCITY?
I guess you had to press the crown against the deers side to kill them, huh?

RW...

Here in the Kootenays of BC, can't remember the last time I met a hunter packin' a lever 30.30. I reserve mine for whitetail when everything else is closed post Nov. 10th, mostly 'cause it's a tad novel and I think Marlin levers rule. Shots over 150 yards present themselves frequently here, no matter where you go...with few second chances.

Indeed, I've often said that, sure as hell the day I'm packing this puppy, Mr. Big is going to walk out of the trees at over 250 yds, give me the ol' magic hoof and trot off.

And that's exactly what happened last day of season this year. Nicest whitetail buck I've seen in years, with his nose up a does butt. Had I my .300 Win. with bipod, just would have been takin' care of business, eh? And then he was gone again. *sigh*

I use the Lever ammo to stack the odds in my favor, at least as much as possible...but still doesn't always work out that way.

:-)

I don't doubt that one can kill deer with a .22 rimfire through the lungs. There are thousands upon thousands of humans who have died from .223 FMJ bullets over the past 50 years, so an expanding bullet is certainly not required to kill a medium sized mammal, but accepted practice for hunting deer-sized game in most of the civilized world over the past several decades is to use expanding bullets within a range that will result in expansion. Of course mileage varies.