If you get a chance to read Layne Simpson’s article on the 450 Alaskan do it. I’m not sure if I need another 45 rifle but…

Which .450 Alaskan ?

I guess I only know of one version. A 348 necked out to 458. However, there maybe a version that didn't have the case blown out... I think Layne's rifle had the case with less taper than the stock 348. Do you know of a different 45o Alaskan?

If you're asking which rifle/model, Layne's is a Marlin. The ones I had been familiar with were built on Winchester 71's.

No Bugger , I was having a brain fart . I was thinking about the .50 Alaskan . There is an original on the .348 case and a modern version on a length modified Linebaugh case. I think there were several versions of the .450 on the .348 case also , done by different builders other than the two guys that made the original.

There are three notable versions, the Johnson, the Ackley and the Fuller. This is also the order they were developed in. The variations all relate to case taper and shoulder angle, whereby the Johnson is .028” of taper and a 16 degree shoulder (almost unnoticeable), the 450-348 Improved wears a almost non existent taper at .010” and carries a 40 degree shoulder, the Fuller is at a .014” case taper and wears a 20 degree shoulder. As would be expected the the Ackley Improved and the Fuller allow a slight bit more of powder due to reduced case tapering. The original Johnson version holds about 88 gr of H2O and will allow roughly 67 gr of propellant topped with 450 gr projectiles. One noted fact by many who have shot and cycled these 3 cartridges is the Johnson is a much better and reliable feeder as would be expected with greater cartridge body taper and reduced shoulder angle similar to the praises of the 375 H&H and its reliable turn bolt feeding and cycling due to its extreme cartridge body taper and reduced shoulder angle. Ackley pretty much stated this as well giving the Johnson version a thumbs up for its reliable feeding in the Model 71. The 40 degree shoulder seemingly presented some cartridge feeding challenges.

Thanks for the info Rossimp!

Starline makes 348 Win and 50 Alaskan brass

They do but if you read their info on their .50 Alaskan , it is based on the .500 Linebaugh case . I know the .500 used the .348 Winchester case as the parent case . They are much cheaper than their .348 cases . Are the specs on these cases and the original .50 Alaskan the same ? Can these be used to make .450 Alaskan cases ?

The 500 Linebaugh case is only 1.4” long.

Personally, I’m not sure you’ll get a lot more out of 450Ak vs a 45/90 or a long loaded 45/70 (in a 1886). The cartridge has no SAAMI spec and apart from the variations mentioned above, there are various gunsmith versions, which is fine as long as the loading dies match the chamber. This is one of the reasons Turnbull mentions as justification for his 475 Turnbull.

I think if I wanted more power than a 45/90, I’d make a 458 wildcat based on a full length 50/110 case. One of the features of the 450 Ak that I’m not keen on is its short neck - I like to use cast pills and I also like to keep all lube grooves covered by the case neck. There was a prototype Winchester cartridge (46 WCF) that never made it past prototype stage. One version of that used a full length 50/110 case and it had a long neck.

You have to consider the 450 Alaskan in it's historical context. It made perfect sense at the time as there wasn't a ready supply of 45-70's that can handle powerful loads. It was a reasonable way to increase the performance of the 348 Win. With the Marlin 1895 45-70's I don't know that the 450 Alaskan is worth the expense of having a custom rifle built, but I can appreciate wanting to recreate a rifle from back in those days.

Personally, If I were to go the expense of a custom lever action I'd go right to the 50 Alaskan.

I have a Miroku 1 of 500 1886 in 45-70. My oldest son wants it. It’s been fired very little and only at targets. It’s heavy with a long octagon barrel. A 45-90 reamer could make it more interesting as I have a Marlin 45-70 that I shoot a bit more.
I think making that a 45-90 makes more sense than sending my Model 71 to have it bored to 45.
I was having a bit of a problem finding bullets for the 348 when I first bought it. Now I’ve got all I need.

Currently I own both a 450 Alaskan and a 450 Fuller in pre-war bolt peep Winchester Model 71s. Harold Johnson developed the
450 Alaskan with the 1886 and early 71s that were available in the early 1950s. Brass in 45-90 was virtually non-existent then.
Smokeless later 1886 Winchesters were rare indeed. I have a 1916 version, but it will not keep up with a M-71 450 Alaskan or 450 Fuller.
The 450 Fuller IMHO is the best of the lot, as its longer neck and reduced shoulder angle eliminates any potential feeding issues.
Cartridges cycle like butter on pancakes.
This is what you need in Alaska-Canadian bear country. These two will exceed the 45-90 when hand-loaded, and be more accurate
than the .50 AK. The Fifty that I owned was interesting at short range, but not nearly accurate enough compared to the 450s.

Speed and accuracy is what counts on bears, as most grizzlies may need at least a second shot.
The confidence one of these gives you in bear country is worth the freight. Availability of quality 400 gr FP bullets
is also a factor. More practice and more readiness with premium accurate bullets. Practice with cast 400 lead, serious 400 gr
Hawk, Kodiak, Woodleigh or Hornady-Nosler FPs. One close call with Mr. Grizzly and the 450 AK will replace your bear spray.

450 Fuller???

Please educate me regarding this cartridge. Thanks.

RossImp is partially right on the 3cartridges, excepting details. PO Ackleys version holds more powder, but he honestly stated that
his version was not equal to the Fuller or original Harold Johnson 450 Alaskan : these two feed better through the 1886/71 later smokeless rifles
because of less radical shoulder.
Ackley's VOL 1 goes into the details on all three. The Fuller 450 does NOT hold more powder, it is VERY close to the original and was originated by Bill Fuller-
Johnson's gunsmith at Johnsons Kenai Rifles at Cooper Landing, Alaska.
Both of my 450s were done on pre-war long tang Model 71 Winchesters. My 450 Fuller is on a pre-war Deluxe rifle that saw guide usage both in Canada and Alaska.
It is so close in case dimensions that 450 fuller fire-formed and loaded cartridges will chamber and fire in the original 450 Alaskan M-71 that I own. (But Not alternatively).
Both have superior feeding qualities, which is critical-as either brown or grizzlies may well require anchoring shots AND a repeat shot or two. Nature of tough grizzlies.
Many mauled hunters or guides in retrospect, WISH they had been packing one of the 450s when having encountered mean-tempered grizzlies. I have owned a
straight case 50 Alaskan on a Browning M-71, but its accuracy was not the equal of the 450s.

Finally, while Layne Simpson's article was historically interesting, the 1895 Marlin is not the equal-IMHO-of either the Winchester or Browning Model 71.
The action is not as smooth, particularly where speed of cycling or reliability is concerned. These 450s were designed as life-saving dangerous game rifles
that must be reliable. Winchesters are marked: Winchester Repeating Arms and they are designed for just that purpose. I have an early Model 1895 Marlin in 45-70
with no extra dangerous external safety. Its an OK rifle...but... John Browning designed the 1886 and its design carried over to the Model 71.
The 45-90 CAN be used, but the 348 case is the stronger of the two-again in my research.

Besides, I already own two 450s-probably the best stopping rifles in existence in lever actions for North America. Even Elmer Keith liked his.

I’ve not seen a drawing for the 450 Fuller, but maybe??? Now I got to get some books off the shelves.

It sounds like the Fuller is a 348 with the neck opened to 458, without blowing out the shoulder. Is that right?

At my age I likely will never need a bear stopper again. But it was bears I had in mind when I carried a 600 Remington in 350 RM with 250 grain partitions or a 338 WM with 250 grain partitions when I was elk hunting.

I suppose some would prefer a double over a Model 71 or 1886, but am not in that camp. I feel the 71 (or 1886) to be a great rifle.

Close...just imagine the 450 Alaskan with a longer neck and a shoulder neck angle of about +- 20 degrees . The Fuller and Alaskan were both developed
in the Johnson-Kenai Rifles shop in SE Alaska. And BOTH were chambered with reamers designed by Bill Fuller, who worked with Harold Johnson.
Johnson was a WWII Marine who was disappointed with the close calls he had with the 30-06 on grizzlies. He wanted something big-but bigger than a 45-70
in a tough case.
PO Ackley's Vol 1 is a good caliber research volume. I like 400 gr FP Hawk, and the old Alaska Bullet works 400 gr FP bullets. The 350 gr bullet can
be used -but it should be of very tough construction like the Woodleigh or AK bonded core Kodiaks. Bears are tough and you need a very tough bullet that won't break apart.
My RCBS dies are the best 450 AK dies because they can load BOTH the original 450 Alaskan and the 450 Fuller.

There have been two or three fatalities with grizzlies the last few years: one outside Yellowstone Park involved an elk guide with a FLA hunter'
the elk was taken over by a sow grizz and a 3/4 grown cub. Hunter was mauled and guide killed. Bear spray sometimes works but
not always with some bears. You can bet the guide's widow wished the guide in WY had been carrying something like the 450s to even out the playing field.


Khe Sanh-1971

Thanks.
I just found reference to the 450 Fuller in “Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders” written by P. O. Ackley. Ackley wrote what you have. He wrote that Mr. Fuller liked 61 grains of 4198 with a 350 grain bullet for an estimated 2,000 fps. A second load of 66 grains of 3031 and a 400 grain bullet with an estimated velocity of 2,045 fps.
In the same book he wrote that the .450/.348 fed better than the .450 Alaskan. But I think there was a typo in the write up on the .450 Alaskan.
Then he wrote about a .450-.348 Improved, which he reported Bob Hutton’s loads topping out at 2,480 fps with 350 grain bullets, 2,275 gps - 400 grain bullets & 2,060 fps with 500 grain bullets. (Hutton’s loads must of been quite a bit higher pressure.)

I have Vol 1, and I think if you re-read that section on the 450-348-Ackley stated that the internal modification of the action required more work-and the 450-348 Improved did not feed as well as the other two.
The "Big 50" also requires re-work of the shell carrier and internals of the 86/M-71 action.
The Fuller-450 Alaskan feed perfectly in my rifles with no hesitation. The 350 gr works but in order to work on bears, it needs to be mono-metal or bonded core like the Alaska Bullet works Kodiak bullets.
I prefer the 400 gr bullet as it is fast enough for bruin. Dangerous game starts getting dangerous when it gets within 15-20 feet ..or yards.
The other issue is recoil and repeat shots, manageable recoil translates into accurate fast repeat shots. Very important. Especially on grizzlies. They may keep coming to even the score. S...my 450 loaded cartridges with 400 gr
bullets hover around 1975-2000 fps. Plenty enough and recoil is manageable. MINIMUM barrel length should be 22 in -24 in, depending on barrel contour

I am not completely comfortable with the 1895 Marlin-though I own one, and will not own a rifle that Has the extra tang mounted "lawyer safety". If it hangs up or malfunctions, you are in trouble. John Browning knew what he was doing
and the good Winchester rifles hold onto his 1886/71 design with NO changes or alterations.

I left out the parts you referred to, 450Fuller.
It makes more sense to me to go with the 45 caliber over the 50 for several reasons. Recoil would be #1. I don’t handle recoil like I did once upon a time. I have a few 45 caliber molds and more than a few boxes of 45 caliber bullets on the shelves.
I was unaware of the different 348’s opened up to 45 caliber, thanks for the information.
I originally bought my Browning 71 to rechamber/bore to the Alaskan. Your point is well taken regarding feeding and it’s importance.
I suspect the reloading dies are all special order.
Old age has caught up to now (it happened faster than I thought), now I believe I’ll keep it 348. Let someone else do it.

B-
I have a double set of RCBS dies: one set to expand and re-size the 348 case to 450 AK, the other to
FL resize, and seat .458 sized bullets-with a Lee factory crimp die to insure a tight, non-moving crimped bullet in the case.
The advantage also in the Lee FC die is that it allows forgiveness on OAL of the cartridge. Important. Annealing case necks is also a good idea considering the cost of new 348 brass.


Now here is another way to increase .348 Win power without much recoil. Its the .348 Ackley Improved. It will raise the velocity
of 225-250 gr bullets in the 348 another 185 FPS minimum. With a 24 in barrel and IMR 4350 powder, and a 250 or 270 gr Hawk bullet-
you can get close to 2475 FPS or 2490 FPS. What you have is a lever action .35 Whelen equivalent.
I killed an Alaskan moose in 2007 big enough to stuff two freezers with steaks, chops, and roasts.
All with one 250 gr Hawk bullet through the bull's neck.

All it takes is re-chambering. Probably the best articles written back in the late 80s in Handloader-Wolfe Publishing, Prescott, AZ.
was by John Kronfeld. I got his dies and an extra barrel from him. This is an inexpensive way to get real power
out of the Model 71 without spending a whole lot. Its in Ackley's book.Wolfe also published a large book called "Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges". All the 348 wildcats are covered. Good luck!

Kronfeld wrote a couple of interesting articles for Handloader mag, one on the 450 Alaskan (issue 140) and one on the 45/90 (issue 160). The ballistics he achieved were similar for both cartridges.

In his sum up of the 45/90, he suggests

‘It is my humble opinion that had Winchester chambered the Model 71 rifle for the 45/90 WCF, it would still be around today. On the Model 71 action, which is good for 44,000 CUP, a 400 grain flat nose bullet can be driven to over 2100 fps, for nearly 4,000 ft lbs of muzzle energy.’

The 45/70 loaded to a shorter OAL produces similar ballistics. Just check Hodgdon’s Reloading Centre (online).

I also have a copy of the Feb 1962 Guns & Ammo mag. In that issue there’s an article titled ‘Big Bore Blasters’ that discusses various Ackley wildcats on the 348 Win case in the 71 platform - these included 45/348AI, 40/348AI, 348 AI. The testing was done by Bob Hutton, G&A’s Technical Director. The issue with data here is they used Powley Computer (actually a slide rule) for their pressure data.

The 45/348 AI only produced a marginal increase in velocity over the 450 Alaskan or 45/90.

As an earlier poster mentioned, the justification for the 450 Alaskan needs to be put into context of what was available at the time it was developed.

These days strong Starline brass in 45/90 is available, reloading dies are readily available but like I keep saying, IMO a long loaded 45/70 equals a 45/90 (in a 1886) and is more flexible.

It makes sense that an long loaded 45-70 equals an 45-90. It is after all just a brass vessel holding powder and 45-70 or 44-90 should be able to be constructed to similiar OAL.

I've got an Pedersoli 71 in 45-70 and I need to play with cartridge length.

You do need to use bore riding bullet designs or have the chamber throated to load a 45/70 to a longer length. I prefer to use the stock throating and select bore riding bullet designs. The added advantage of a 45/70 is that you can use regular length brass or the shorter Hornady brass.

I was wondering if there if a factory crimp die that works best for the 450 alaskan? I have a set of Hornady Dies for it currently but would like a separate crimp die. Would a 45-70 crimp die work?

450 Fuller said he uses a Lee FCD but not which one.

We have what I believe is the ackley version and I altered a 45-70 crimp die the center comes out put it in the 3 jaw and the right reamer 5 minutes work

Ide like to know which one

That's the problem with all the reloading efforts, there's too many rabbitholes and jargon to contend with. Things like twist rates, bore riding bullets, throating, and bullet designs. Good grief, just it's hard enough to load this stuff and then one has to consider all these issues.

Kronfeld is basically correct as to the 450 Alaskan compared to the 45-90. Both of my 450s are
on pre-war Model 71s. The 348 brass is stronger than 45-90. I use a Lee FCD that was made and
marked by Lee for the 450 AK.
My rifles came from AK and were made decades ago, and one came from Fuller's shop at Cooper Landing, AK.

The one advantage to the 45-90 WCF is that it can chamber and shoot 45-70s, as mentioned. Decided
advantage starting from scratch. An extended 45-70 works pretty well in a 45-90.
Old timers used it a lot.

Just returned from the mountains of NM-AZ Gila country. A bear incident made the news.
A 200 lb black bear near Prescott, AZ killed a home owner having a cup of coffee. Forget the damn coffee and
carry a 450 or heavy loaded 45 Colt SA Ruger or New Service Colt with 300 gr bullets.
Bear spray works on "some " bears. Carrying just UDAP or Counter-assault bear spray
is gambling-always carry a backup rifle or pistol in bear country.

Ask the widows of dead guides or hunters that got torn up and killed.

Pine, I hear what your are saying about the crap people use in talking about loading and shooting. One that really gets me when someone asks what are you "running".. I am not running anything. Much of this crap I believe comes from newbe's that want to sound knowledgeable. Kind of like a 6th grader trying to sound like a high school kid. Those terms speak to me of some who wants to sound important but isn't. Have a good day.

Thank you. Ill try and see if i can beat the bushes and find a LEE FCD in 450 Alaskan. Thank you for replying to me!!

My 1885 45-90 loaded is longer than what is possible with the 45-70. I have two 45-70’s, a 1895 and a 1886.
If I get a bison tag it’s the 1885 that I’d be carrying.
I have a nice but plain Jane model 71. I’d consider boring the ‘71 to 45 and I’m sort of leaning that way but the 348 has about all the power I’d need and if I needed more I have other choices.
Besides that 348 shoots pretty dang well.

I’ve run a 450 Alaskan for many years. That’s what the barrel was marked as were the dies. Marvelous cartridge! I’d bought a long tang 71 Winchester made into 35/348 improved at a gun show on my birthday! The rifle was restocked, rebarrelled and made into a 24” full magazine gem. The gentleman that I bought it from had a match in 450 Alaskan. It was the fourth receiver from the end of production. Whoever built those two rifles was a craftsman. Tried to find him but no luck.
The 450 is a hammer on big game, 400 grain bullets at 2200 are hard on things. When I got the 450, Elmer Keith’s advice was 63 grains of 3031 with a 400 grain bullet. Of course the bullets of the day were great for snapping turtles on the pond but to soggy for game. The Nosler 300 grain partition was better but not by much. Cast a 400 grain gas check and shot piles of them. No matter the angle, those bullets exited elk. Nice to have that rifle in my hands talking stupid grizzlies in into going the other way.
If Winchester had made a cartridge for the 71 that shot a 375 diameter 300 grain flat nose bullet at 2200 ……..

Ummm 50 Alaskan's big brother




5500 ft lbs 500 grains

Project gun from the 1990's. If you want more info I may put up a few more photos.

Apologies for the hijacking.

Cabriolet, don’t apologize. Please do give us more pictures and information on the who’s, what’s,where’s, etc on that cannon.