In today's environment, getting specific powders at any given time is almost impossible.
So what have proven to be your most accurate powders at reasonably good velocities with various bullet weights? Great accuracy with really low velocity is not very interesting, at least to me.
For me, with bullets of 50-60 gr, VV-133 is King.
For 62-69, IMR 8208-XBR has been really good over time
For 69-77, IMR 8208=XBR again, is really good & so is VV-140, but VV-540 is better than either, especially with 75-77 grainers. Alliant 2000-MR has also shown to be very good in limited use, but it takes a lot of powder / round.
Others that work well, & that I have, & will use as needed, but not necessarily as good as the above & some don't flow so well or don't give quite the groupings or velocity as the ones above:
RL-15, Varget, H4895, CFE-223, TAC & AR Comp
MM
Benchmark is very nice with 52-53 grain match bullets, very accurate. Haven't chronoed it though. H 322 and RL-10x are also nice with lighter bullets.
The best groups I've shot were with WC846, aka BL(c)2 and 50 to 55 gr pills.
IMR-4895's my goto stick powder for hunting bullets like the 60gr NPT and 64gr BSB.
W748 has given me some of my best groups with lighter bullets like 52s.
TAC has been my go to powder for several years now. I started out using it in a Sako 223 with 50 grain bullets and it works just fine with 77's as well.
The other powder is Leverevolution, I used it in my 223AI and got great velocity as well as great accuracy.
The best groups I've shot were with WC846, aka BL(c)2 and 50 to 55 gr pills.
IMR-4895's my goto stick powder for hunting bullets like the 60gr NPT and 64gr BSB.
Ditto on the WC-846. I use it with a 50 grain VMax in one of my 223's, and the accuracy is outstanding. I've also had good luck with both W748 and H335.
Anyone using Accurate 2520?
MM
Anyone using Accurate 2520?
MM
Never tried it, but considering the luck I seem to be having with Shooters World powders, made by Accurate, and how close it is to BL(c)2 I have exactly zero hesitation if reasonably priced.
W748 has given me some of my best groups with lighter bullets like 52s.
Just a few benchrest matched won with that combination in the old .222 Rem.
AR Comp kicks some pretty good azz. Even in my 22-250's lately. My ar10 308 likes it too.
Anyone using Accurate 2520?
MM
Never tried it, but considering the luck I seem to be having with Shooters World powders, made by Accurate, and how close it is to BL(c)2 I have exactly zero hesitation if reasonably priced.
I have burned up 1,000 75gr hpbt match hornadies and its unpredictable. You get good velocities though. A buddy swears by it in his spr. He runs a mock up of the mk 262 mod1. 9 shot groups that are right around moa.
The reason that I asked about 2520 is that is seems to come available pretty regularly as well as TAC.
AR Comp, 8208 & any of the VV powders that I mentioned are pretty much unobtanium.
LGS says he hasn't gotten any Alliant powders in a year & I very rarely see any of the Alliant ones I might use in an AR available either.
I haven't see any W-748 in a long time either & I have a pretty good robot searching constantly.
Overall, just looking for what works for others as they may some up from time to time.
MM
Got my notes in front of me and my 77 grain SMK TAC load of 24.5 grains runs 2677 fps in my 16” barrel and 2761 fps in my 18” barrel.
Accuracy is pretty good.
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/pV3tv2sW/AD6-A879-C-CF95-4917-A295-F8-C47-EDDEE92.jpg)
To keep things in perspective.
Anyone using Accurate 2520?
MM
Never tried it, but considering the luck I seem to be having with Shooters World powders, made by Accurate, and how close it is to BL(c)2 I have exactly zero hesitation if reasonably priced.
SWP and Lovex powders are out of the Czech Republic. Accurate powders are made in Canada and United States now.
The reason that I asked about 2520 is that is seems to come available pretty regularly as well as TAC.
AR Comp, 8208 & any of the VV powders that I mentioned are pretty much unobtanium.
LGS says he hasn't gotten any Alliant powders in a year & I very rarely see any of the Alliant ones I might use in an AR available either.
I haven't see any W-748 in a long time either & I have a pretty good robot searching constantly.
Overall, just looking for what works for others as they may some up from time to time.
MM
Accurate 2495, Accurate 2200 are good ones. I have a very good load using 2495 with 75hr hornady bthp. Have a good load using accurate 2200. I’m getting 2705 with the 75gr bthp out 18 inch barrel. I haven’t chronographed the 69gr load. Right now 2200 is readily available. Far as 2520 the jug I have it was made in Israel so I had it for a long time and I shot the worse groups with it. Like BSA said the velocities are phenomenal.
I do have an 8lb jug of AR comp I should open one of these days.
I've said this for decades....I think it is harder to find a powder that doesn't work well in the 223, than it is to find one that works better than all the rest...
I’ve used several powders through the years, but nowadays I use H-4895 for all my .223 loads.
I've had very good luck with everything from 40 gr nosler bt to 65 grain Sierra gamekings with benchmark. It seems like any bullet in that weight range combined with a near max load produces moa or better results for me.
. I have a very good load using 2495 with 75hr hornady bthp.
What is your 2495 load with 75 bthp? I have three or four pounds of it.
My go to powder for 223 was 21.5 gr IMR- 4198 with 52 gr Sierra. Was easy to get three touching at 100 yds with my bull barrel Rem 700.
Never see this powder mentioned in loading the 223, wonder why ?
Thanks for all the replies.................great info here for all.
I have enough powder right now, but as I use what I have, it needs to be replaced with something.
MM
Varget works really well in my 8 twist .22-204 with 75 gr SSII's.
Hard on 'yotes. This one wandering into my yard, Christmas Eve. Didn't turn out well for him.
DF
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/mP93fGZl.jpg)
Thanks for all the replies.................great info here for all.
I have enough powder right now, but as I use what I have, it needs to be replaced with something.
MM
That’s why I started buying these accurate powders. I buy a lb try ‘em out and if rifle shot half ass decent not bsa 1/4 moa groups but 1, 1 1/2 groups I would be happy. So far these powders have exceeded my expectations. I used 2495 last year in high power for my long line load 75gr eld-m. As stated earlier shoots 75gr hornady bthp real well. I struggled to get the bullet to shoot in them past. I tried 2460 and it shoots 77 smk very well and 55gr hornady fmj (bullet notorious for shooting like chit). 2200 has been the big surprise it shoots 69gr bullets real well be it 69gr smk or 69gr rmr.
79S,
Thanks for those insights & that's exactly the kind of info I was looking for.
In today's world, it's not always possible to get what you really want, so you have to be flexible enough to take what works OK & that you can get; in most of my guns, I'm satisfied with 1 1/4" groups, if they are consistent. If you read the article I linked above, he's basically saying that consistency with a slight larger group is preferable to the absolute smallest groups that are not as consistent for most uses & I buy into that.
Overall, the Accurate powders & a few of the Ramshot powders (mainly TAC & X-Terminator) have been the ones I've seen come available the most frequently, but also a fair amount of H-335 too.
MM
I’ve used several powders through the years, but nowadays I use H-4895 for all my .223 loads.
Might be allright in a electronic powder dispenser but it's like cutting Lincoln logs in a uniflow. Mb
I’ve used several powders through the years, but nowadays I use H-4895 for all my .223 loads.
Might be allright in a electronic powder dispenser but it's like cutting Lincoln logs in a uniflow. Mb
That's my complaint with Varget & RL-15 as well...........both shoot fine & I'll use what I need to of those 2, but only if I have to.
As for H-4895, it's pretty squirrely on pressure, IMO, but I've used more of it in a bolt gun than in an AR. It's another powder that will work, but it's pretty far down my list as long as I have other options. It's reasonably accurate, but nowhere close to the really good powders available today.
MM
I use H335 for 40’s, 55’s, 63’s, 64’s, and 65’s. Great accuracy. AA2230 has also worked real well for me, but finding more was tough.
H322 has been the very best for me with 50-55 grain bullets.
H335, and 748 being very close behind and both giving higher velocities.
H4895 is the best I have used with 69-75 grain bullets.
I’ve used several powders through the years, but nowadays I use H-4895 for all my .223 loads.
Might be allright in a electronic powder dispenser but it's like cutting Lincoln logs in a uniflow. Mb
That's my complaint with Varget & RL-15 as well...........both shoot fine & I'll use what I need to of those 2, but only if I have to.
As for H-4895, it's pretty squirrely on pressure, IMO, but I've used more of it in a bolt gun than in an AR. It's another powder that will work, but it's pretty far down my list as long as I have other options. It's reasonably accurate, but nowhere close to the really good powders available today.
MM
Yeah, its garbage as far as I'm concerned. IF you can't drop it from the uni-flow and go, its almost worthless. The 223 is too small and tedious otherwise and 223/556 in the AR is a high round proposition: You shoot a bunch, you should be loading a bunch. Should be able to load 300 rounds per hour that way, and achieve excellent accuracy as well. With H4895, RL15, and Varget that's not happening.. I was shooting my 22-250 loads a few days ago, that I loaded that way with AR Comp and shooting at 400 yards, it was hitting the 3" target with boring regularity. Its a .8 moa load for 10 shots out of 2 different rifles. Larger cartridges, I don't mind dropping charges and trickling in the rest. As for H4895, I love it in my 22-250's and my buddies 22-250. Or I should say, the rifles love it. It's good powder, but I'm like MM. If I can use something else that meters better, I'll do that instead. I did a test a while back with one of my 22-250's. Here's how the dropped H4895 did:
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/K2dUahe.jpg)
Here's how the weighed and trickled load did:
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/jQfUg7x.jpg)
Now, this thread is not about the 22-250, but the same applies to the 223 rem. You'll get the same results when using powders that don't meter well.. I know, singing to the choir...
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/ji6A7He.jpg)
Thanks for all the replies.................great info here for all.
I have enough powder right now, but as I use what I have, it needs to be replaced with something.
MM
That’s why I started buying these accurate powders. I buy a lb try ‘em out and if rifle shot half ass decent not bsa 1/4 moa groups but 1-1/12 groups I would be happy. So far these powders have exceeded my expectations. I used 2495 last year in high power for my long line load 75gr eld-m. As stated earlier shoots 75gr hornady bthp real well. I struggled to get the bullet to shoot in them past. I tried 2460 and it shoots 77 smk very well and 55gr hornady fmj (bullet notorious for shooting like chit). 2200 has been the big surprise but it shoots 69gr bullets real well be it 69gr smk or 69gr rmr.
I think we all have been trying different powders buddy. This thread MM started is good. Its good to compare. One I really like is X-terminator. My PITA BCM likes it well enough:
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/gvzwrjG.jpg)
Definitely not sub moa, but the first charge weight looked good enough for me that I loaded up a bunch. Went from 2.260" to 2.250" and groups looked a little better. Velocity wasn't too bad either. Its one powder I really like in my 6x45 as well and it pours out of the uniflow like water...
Thanks for all the replies.................great info here for all.
I have enough powder right now, but as I use what I have, it needs to be replaced with something.
MM
That’s why I started buying these accurate powders. I buy a lb try ‘em out and if rifle shot half ass decent not bsa 1/4 moa groups but 1-1/12 groups I would be happy. So far these powders have exceeded my expectations. I used 2495 last year in high power for my long line load 75gr eld-m. As stated earlier shoots 75gr hornady bthp real well. I struggled to get the bullet to shoot in them past. I tried 2460 and it shoots 77 smk very well and 55gr hornady fmj (bullet notorious for shooting like chit). 2200 has been the big surprise but it shoots 69gr bullets real well be it 69gr smk or 69gr rmr.
I think we all have been trying different powders buddy. This thread MM started is good. Its good to compare. One I really like is X-terminator. My PITA BCM likes it well enough:
Definitely not sub moa, but the first charge weight looked good enough for me that I loaded up a bunch. Went from 2.260" to 2.250" and groups looked a little better. Velocity wasn't too bad either. Its one powder I really like in my 6x45 as well and it pours out of the uniflow like water...
Try 2200 or 2460 you will be orgasmic, when you are throwing the lever on your uniflow.🥰😁
I use CFE 223 for my 62 bullets.
For me, with bullets of 50-60 gr, VV-133 is King.
MM
I could not agree more, VVN133 is the best powder for this bullet weight in AR's and bolt guns............
My favorite powder for decades with 65gr+ was Varget, but the Varget I used was the Original that came out in 1994 that was pre EXTREME. the newer EXTREME Varget does not work as well
Way back when i used what i used for the 270 that i loaded for IMR-4064 and IMR-3031.
Now days i really like TAC and H-322.
The latter really shoots well in a bolt rifle and AR-15.
Anyone using Accurate 2520?
MM
Never tried it, but considering the luck I seem to be having with Shooters World powders, made by Accurate, and how close it is to BL(c)2 I have exactly zero hesitation if reasonably priced.
SWP and Lovex powders are out of the Czech Republic. Accurate powders are made in Canada and United States now.
Ah yes, Lovex used to make some of the accurate powders. Sometimes I loose track. Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for all the replies.................great info here for all.
I have enough powder right now, but as I use what I have, it needs to be replaced with something.
MM
That’s why I started buying these accurate powders. I buy a lb try ‘em out and if rifle shot half ass decent not bsa 1/4 moa groups but 1-1/12 groups I would be happy. So far these powders have exceeded my expectations. I used 2495 last year in high power for my long line load 75gr eld-m. As stated earlier shoots 75gr hornady bthp real well. I struggled to get the bullet to shoot in them past. I tried 2460 and it shoots 77 smk very well and 55gr hornady fmj (bullet notorious for shooting like chit). 2200 has been the big surprise but it shoots 69gr bullets real well be it 69gr smk or 69gr rmr.
I think we all have been trying different powders buddy. This thread MM started is good. Its good to compare. One I really like is X-terminator. My PITA BCM likes it well enough:
Definitely not sub moa, but the first charge weight looked good enough for me that I loaded up a bunch. Went from 2.260" to 2.250" and groups looked a little better. Velocity wasn't too bad either. Its one powder I really like in my 6x45 as well and it pours out of the uniflow like water...
Try 2200 or 2460 you will be orgasmic, when you are throwing the lever on your uniflow.🥰😁
Thanks buddy. I like many AA powders and how they throw from the uniflow. Just don't get the accuracy out of it like I do AR Comp. If you aren't going to break the cherry on the 8 pounder, send it to me. I'll put it to good use, even though I just bought 10 pounds of it locally.. Damn guys say they prefer CFE223 down here. Ha ha. They will learn, maybe.... I told the mo fo's I'd gladly take the damn crap AR Comp off their hands. They get a kick out of me down here. I was there the other day and the guy asked me what I was looking for and I said "A GOOD deal". He said for you or me? I said "for me, I'm kind of stingy that way"....
I’ve used several powders through the years, but nowadays I use H-4895 for all my .223 loads.
Might be allright in a electronic powder dispenser but it's like cutting Lincoln logs in a uniflow. Mb
That's my complaint with Varget & RL-15 as well...........both shoot fine & I'll use what I need to of those 2, but only if I have to.
As for H-4895, it's pretty squirrely on pressure, IMO, but I've used more of it in a bolt gun than in an AR. It's another powder that will work, but it's pretty far down my list as long as I have other options. It's reasonably accurate, but nowhere close to the really good powders available today.
MM
4895 in 308 ok. In 223 it was accurate but squirrely.
Can't believe folks use a uniflow measure for stick powders. LOL. The stupid lee cheap 19 buck one is all we use on stick powders for years per John Barsness. Amazing little piece of junk but you can have spares at that cost.
And for other powders we still use much better measures.
As to inherently accurate, Varget fit that bill for years. And there are so many other options that its hard to say.
If I had to blindly pick a powder and it be accurate and great in our Harrels measures and most others I'd buy a stash of TAC. Its on my list anyway to buy a couple 8s but its not been around for a long time locally. I really don't have a load for TAC use but I"ve used it in the past and its done speed, accuracy, easy to use even in the Dillon. But my Dillon bars have been modified too so they work even with RL15.
Granted I've not tried any of the new powders either. Just no real need found with others out there.
H322 has been the very best for me with 50-55 grain bullets.
H335, and 748 being very close behind and both giving higher velocities.
H4895 is the best I have used with 69-75 grain bullets.
748 is ungodly temp sensitive and no one I know in the AR game has used that since the 90s. So many better.
As noted 4895 is so picky and sensitive. Often really accurate. But awfully slow with mid range bullets like the 69-75s. Slower still with 80 plus grain bullets.
Just comparing notes here.
Finally found the replacement nipples for the musket you worked on. Now that I finally have musket nipples gonna shoot it some next fall again and enjoy it. Thanks. Lets just hope we finally can get consistent ignition which was the worst issue with that gun. Never had so many misfires with a black powder gun in my life.
Jeff
H322 has been the very best for me with 50-55 grain bullets.
H335, and 748 being very close behind and both giving higher velocities.
H4895 is the best I have used with 69-75 grain bullets.
748 is ungodly temp sensitive and no one I know in the AR game has used that since the 90s. So many better.
As noted 4895 is so picky and sensitive. Often really accurate. But awfully slow with mid range bullets like the 69-75s. Slower still with 80 plus grain bullets.
Just comparing notes here.
Finally found the replacement nipples for the musket you worked on. Now that I finally have musket nipples gonna shoot it some next fall again and enjoy it. Thanks. Lets just hope we finally can get consistent ignition which was the worst issue with that gun. Never had so many misfires with a black powder gun in my life.
Jeff
H322 on the other hand has a great reputation. The old pre-extreme versions won a lot of benchrest matches.
So what have proven to be your most accurate powders at reasonably good velocities with various bullet weights?
My current AR, a Ruger MPR, shoots 3/4 MOA or better for 5 shots with Hornady soft points from 50 to 60 grains, 70 accubonds, and 55 grain ballistic tips, all with WW brass, Fed 205AR match primers, and whatever amount of H335 is max for the bullet weight. When testing loads for those bullets, I also tried CFE223, H322, BLC-2, TAC, Benchmark, and in some cases Varget. H335 has consistently been the #1 powder for accuracy in every instance where I've gotten good accuracy with this gun.
A few bullets have simply not shot well. Sierra 77 grain TMKs, Hornady 68 grain BTHP, Sierra 69 grain BTHP, 60 grain partitions, and 64 grain WW power points have all produced best accuracy around 2 MOA or worse. I don't know that I'll do much, or any, further load work. Between the 55 grain Hornady SPs and the 70 grain accubonds, my needs are covered.
I’ve used several powders through the years, but nowadays I use H-4895 for all my .223 loads.
Might be allright in a electronic powder dispenser but it's like cutting Lincoln logs in a uniflow. Mb
Then people complain about Ramshot powder "bouncing" out of the dispenser pan.
So, to split hairs, I'd think the electronic powder dispenser may be great for stick powders, the Uniflow better for the fine Ramshot powders.
I don't have an electronic dispenser, don't mind dropping a charge and tweaking the scale.
The worst stick powder, IME, is Vv n-570. It won't even work in a Uniflow, stacks up. So, with that one, I remove the drop tube, dump directly into a scale pan and tweak to desired charge. Vv n-570 is great in the 26 Nosler and some other overbore rounds. But, as they say, it's not really overbore if you have slow enough powder.
DF
I use CFE 223 for my 62 bullets.
Me too, works great with the 55gr. Hornadys too.
I haven't tried all the powders and all the bullets, but overall, with bullets in the 63 - 75 grain range, I've had best luck with H4895. TAC has been a fairly close second. Most accurate bullets have been the 65 Sierra GameKing and the regular untipped Sierra 69 MatchKing. Up to 200 yards (as far as I've tried them) accuracy is about the same. The 68 Hornady Match and the 75 Hornady Match are accurate, but remain slightly behind the Sierras.
H322 has been the very best for me with 50-55 grain bullets.
H335, and 748 being very close behind and both giving higher velocities.
H4895 is the best I have used with 69-75 grain bullets.
748 is ungodly temp sensitive and no one I know in the AR game has used that since the 90s. So many better.
As noted 4895 is so picky and sensitive. Often really accurate. But awfully slow with mid range bullets like the 69-75s. Slower still with 80 plus grain bullets.
Just comparing notes here.
Finally found the replacement nipples for the musket you worked on. Now that I finally have musket nipples gonna shoot it some next fall again and enjoy it. Thanks. Lets just hope we finally can get consistent ignition which was the worst issue with that gun. Never had so many misfires with a black powder gun in my life.
Jeff
H322 on the other hand has a great reputation. The old pre-extreme versions won a lot of benchrest matches.
AS, how much experience have you had with H322? I saw a bunch earlier today, but have never ran it. I see in this thread that some like it. I'm glad MM started this thread because with these shortages, we try different powders to try and match our favorites. I haven't found a powder yet that matches AR Comp, but I keep trying. Hell, I even tried benchrest powders like LT30/32 etc... also, if I ever run across some N133, I'll snag it. But finding Vihtavuori powder around here is not going to happen.. There's a lot of good powders to use in the little 223 rem/556, so I'll keep trying different powders. Been burning up a lot of my favorite powder in the 22-250's lately.
Got my notes in front of me and my 77 grain SMK TAC load of 24.5 grains runs 2677 fps in my 16” barrel and 2761 fps in my 18” barrel.
Accuracy is pretty good.
To keep things in perspective.
I have 6 pounds of TAC. I'll load my buddies 223's with it.. That and CFE223 and H335... I'll save the good chidt for what I load..
I’ll try some AR Comp and what is MM’s go to 8208?
Right now I’m glad to have TAC and Lever on hand
I’ll try some AR Comp and what is MM’s go to 8208?
Right now I’m glad to have TAC and Lever on hand
Amen buddy. I guess I should clarify. I found a bunch of lighter bullets for my buddy. TAC should work great in his rifles. I might even just throw some together with your recipe and give them to him.. One of my buddies likes running 50's and 55's in his rifle. Another runs a lot of 55gr fmj..
If I were shooting 50, 52, or 53 grain bullets my first choice would be Benchmark, second H322, third Reloder 10x.
Good luck finding any of them though. I would love to have a stash of Benchmark.
H322 has been the very best for me with 50-55 grain bullets.
H335, and 748 being very close behind and both giving higher velocities.
H4895 is the best I have used with 69-75 grain bullets.
748 is ungodly temp sensitive and no one I know in the AR game has used that since the 90s. So many better.
As noted 4895 is so picky and sensitive. Often really accurate. But awfully slow with mid range bullets like the 69-75s. Slower still with 80 plus grain bullets.
Just comparing notes here.
Finally found the replacement nipples for the musket you worked on. Now that I finally have musket nipples gonna shoot it some next fall again and enjoy it. Thanks. Lets just hope we finally can get consistent ignition which was the worst issue with that gun. Never had so many misfires with a black powder gun in my life.
Jeff
H322 on the other hand has a great reputation. The old pre-extreme versions won a lot of benchrest matches.
AS, how much experience have you had with H322? I saw a bunch earlier today, but have never ran it. I see in this thread that some like it. I'm glad MM started this thread because with these shortages, we try different powders to try and match our favorites. I haven't found a powder yet that matches AR Comp, but I keep trying. Hell, I even tried benchrest powders like LT30/32 etc... also, if I ever run across some N133, I'll snag it. But finding Vihtavuori powder around here is not going to happen.. There's a lot of good powders to use in the little 223 rem/556, so I'll keep trying different powders. Been burning up a lot of my favorite powder in the 22-250's lately.
How was your experience with LT-30? I bought some last spring and just loaded some of it tonight to try with some 50 gr. bullets in my 1:12 twist H&R .223 Rem.
H322 has been the very best for me with 50-55 grain bullets.
H335, and 748 being very close behind and both giving higher velocities.
H4895 is the best I have used with 69-75 grain bullets.
748 is ungodly temp sensitive and no one I know in the AR game has used that since the 90s. So many better.
As noted 4895 is so picky and sensitive. Often really accurate. But awfully slow with mid range bullets like the 69-75s. Slower still with 80 plus grain bullets.
Just comparing notes here.
Finally found the replacement nipples for the musket you worked on. Now that I finally have musket nipples gonna shoot it some next fall again and enjoy it. Thanks. Lets just hope we finally can get consistent ignition which was the worst issue with that gun. Never had so many misfires with a black powder gun in my life.
Jeff
H322 on the other hand has a great reputation. The old pre-extreme versions won a lot of benchrest matches.
AS, how much experience have you had with H322? I saw a bunch earlier today, but have never ran it. I see in this thread that some like it. I'm glad MM started this thread because with these shortages, we try different powders to try and match our favorites. I haven't found a powder yet that matches AR Comp, but I keep trying. Hell, I even tried benchrest powders like LT30/32 etc... also, if I ever run across some N133, I'll snag it. But finding Vihtavuori powder around here is not going to happen.. There's a lot of good powders to use in the little 223 rem/556, so I'll keep trying different powders. Been burning up a lot of my favorite powder in the 22-250's lately.
Morning BSA.
Growing up, two of my uncles did a lot benchrest shooting. They set a lot of range records, and the younger of the two even setting at least one world record in 100 yard heavy varmint benchrest. He burned a lot of H322 behind 52gr SMK in the old .222 Rem. Today it seems he uses more Vihtavuori powders, and custom bullets, but H322's still in his rotation. The older passes about 10 years ago. His main powder in the .222 and .223 Remington was W748, again, with the 52gr SMK.
Personally, I've burned less than a pound of it, mostly behind the 64gr BSB. It wasn't bad, a little over an inch with 5 shot groups, which is actually pretty good with that bullet, but IMR-4895 grouped better, consistently under an inch, about 0.75" to 0.9" with 5 shot groups. I was hoping the H322 would edge it out. Unlike Imr-4895 it meters like water, and unlike H335 it's more temp stable.
I picked up a nice batch of the 70gr RDF's from the shooters proshop. Once it warms up a bit, QL's telling me to try H-322 behind them, but I'll probably focus on the Shooters World powders and TAC for now since I have more of those on hand.
It's interesting to note how your favorite, AR-Comp performs on this simulation:
Cartridge : 5.56 mm NATO - 5.56 x 45 mm
Bullet : .224, 70, Nosler RDF HPBT 53066
Useable Case Capaci: 24.146 grain H2O = 1.568 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
34 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 70%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 106.5 22.9 1.49 2814 100.0 61500 10350 0.804 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 102.4 24.5 1.59 2809 97.2 61500 11366 0.803 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 108.0 23.5 1.52 2807 99.9 61500 11089 0.836 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 110.0 24.5 1.59 2802 94.7 61289 11662 0.812 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 104.9 25.5 1.65 2799 96.0 61500 11524 0.810 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223 *C 109.9 26.7 1.73 2795 92.4 61500 11682 0.802 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game 110.0 26.1 1.69 2792 93.9 61251 11501 0.804 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 107.9 24.8 1.60 2792 97.9 61500 11177 0.818 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Match Rifle 107.9 24.8 1.60 2792 97.9 61500 11177 0.818 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 105.5 24.8 1.60 2792 97.9 61500 11177 0.818 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 110.0 22.9 1.48 2788 99.4 58041 11110 0.824 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 106.8 23.8 1.54 2782 95.4 61500 11336 0.814 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 103.2 22.3 1.44 2777 99.2 61500 10686 0.806 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 97.0 22.3 1.44 2777 99.2 61500 10686 0.806 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 97.2 23.6 1.53 2773 98.5 61500 10881 0.810 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 104.8 24.9 1.62 2773 94.5 61500 11241 0.809 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 107.0 23.8 1.54 2773 94.7 61500 11270 0.814 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 *C 107.9 23.6 1.53 2773 98.6 61500 10889 0.815 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 *C 110.0 24.8 1.60 2766 98.4 61436 10942 0.813 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 *C 110.0 24.5 1.59 2765 93.5 59935 11399 0.821 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 102.7 23.0 1.49 2761 96.3 61500 10940 0.811 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 100.6 21.1 1.37 2753 100.0 61500 10139 0.821 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B *C 110.0 24.5 1.59 2752 94.0 58712 11356 0.829 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 105.0 23.4 1.51 2752 96.2 61500 10821 0.812 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 *C 108.2 23.6 1.53 2750 96.3 61500 10932 0.825 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5 100.7 24.0 1.56 2747 97.2 61500 10755 0.827 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 100.4 24.0 1.56 2747 97.2 61500 10755 0.827 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 102.6 23.3 1.51 2741 99.2 61500 10346 0.812 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 103.4 22.0 1.43 2737 100.0 61500 10056 0.826 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.4 98.7 23.6 1.53 2735 97.1 61500 10559 0.824 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus 98.7 23.6 1.53 2735 97.1 61500 10559 0.824 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C 96.7 21.0 1.36 2735 100.0 61500 9906 0.834 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 99.6 24.0 1.55 2727 95.4 61500 10579 0.821 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 97.4 22.4 1.45 2724 97.1 61500 10424 0.815 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 101.4 24.1 1.56 2720 94.4 61500 10626 0.817 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 103.7 24.9 1.61 2720 91.0 61500 10809 0.816 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 99.7 19.9 1.29 2718 100.0 61500 9400 0.806 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 103.7 23.4 1.52 2717 92.4 61500 10615 0.813 ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2 95.2 22.6 1.46 2715 97.1 61500 10327 0.816 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 103.4 22.7 1.47 2714 96.9 61500 10328 0.816 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207 95.0 19.8 1.28 2712 100.0 61500 9296 0.821 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Precision 110.0 23.8 1.54 2712 95.6 57926 10851 0.842 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 110.0 23.8 1.54 2712 95.6 57926 10851 0.842 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Tactical Rifle 97.7 23.2 1.50 2709 95.7 61500 10298 0.816 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 110.0 25.0 1.62 2708 90.9 57987 11058 0.837 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133 *C 109.4 22.3 1.44 2708 99.9 61500 9669 0.814 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 296 74.7 17.9 1.16 2705 100.0 61500 9262 0.827 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 86.8 20.2 1.31 2704 99.7 61500 9748 0.813 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 110.0 24.1 1.56 2703 93.1 57420 10791 0.827 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S060 106.2 23.0 1.49 2702 94.7 61500 10328 0.815 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 83.1 17.7 1.15 2702 100.0 61500 9472 0.807 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D060 85.0 17.7 1.15 2702 100.0 61500 9472 0.807 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle 85.0 17.7 1.15 2702 100.0 61500 9472 0.807 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-7 94.1 20.3 1.31 2701 100.0 61500 9475 0.824 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 *C 103.1 21.5 1.39 2699 100.0 61500 9532 0.821 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 110.0 24.8 1.60 2695 94.2 54476 11178 0.862 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206 105.4 23.2 1.50 2694 95.3 61500 10211 0.815 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 95.9 20.1 1.30 2689 99.1 61500 9607 0.809 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 110.0 24.0 1.55 2685 97.6 53114 11072 0.891 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 110.0 23.8 1.54 2680 92.5 57288 10628 0.834 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE BLK *C 94.1 22.2 1.44 2679 96.3 61500 9971 0.819 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D063 79.8 18.5 1.20 2675 100.0 61500 9038 0.808 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Blackout 79.8 18.5 1.20 2675 100.0 61500 9038 0.808 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET *T 110.0 23.7 1.53 2670 92.3 56635 10588 0.838 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 90.3 18.4 1.19 2668 100.0 61500 8750 0.812 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 *C 97.6 19.8 1.28 2668 100.0 61500 8674 0.823 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C 92.2 19.1 1.24 2665 100.0 61500 8677 0.823 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 89.7 18.3 1.18 2658 100.0 61500 8702 0.811 ! Near Maximum !
I’ll try some AR Comp and what is MM’s go to 8208?
Right now I’m glad to have TAC and Lever on hand
TAC is plenty good.................if you've got enough, I wouldn't worry about getting anything else.
I think 8208 is marginally more accurate day in, day out across different guns & bullet weights, but TAC is plenty good enough.
Try some VV-540 & VV-140 if you can ever get your hands on any but it's mucho dinero.
That's a really good thing about TAC right now.................it's on the cheaper side for powder today, by a goodly amount................Powder Valley consistently gets it in & prices it at about $210'ish for an 8 lb'er.
MM
Does Tac seem to better with a certain bullet weight?
I think it does best with 69 grainers & less.
I like the VV powders above & 8208 a little better with 75/77's.
JME, JMHO
MM
Been a fair number of matches won with TAC.
H322 has been the very best for me with 50-55 grain bullets.
H335, and 748 being very close behind and both giving higher velocities.
H4895 is the best I have used with 69-75 grain bullets.
748 is ungodly temp sensitive and no one I know in the AR game has used that since the 90s. So many better.
As noted 4895 is so picky and sensitive. Often really accurate. But awfully slow with mid range bullets like the 69-75s. Slower still with 80 plus grain bullets.
Just comparing notes here.
Finally found the replacement nipples for the musket you worked on. Now that I finally have musket nipples gonna shoot it some next fall again and enjoy it. Thanks. Lets just hope we finally can get consistent ignition which was the worst issue with that gun. Never had so many misfires with a black powder gun in my life.
Jeff
H322 on the other hand has a great reputation. The old pre-extreme versions won a lot of benchrest matches.
AS, how much experience have you had with H322? I saw a bunch earlier today, but have never ran it. I see in this thread that some like it. I'm glad MM started this thread because with these shortages, we try different powders to try and match our favorites. I haven't found a powder yet that matches AR Comp, but I keep trying. Hell, I even tried benchrest powders like LT30/32 etc... also, if I ever run across some N133, I'll snag it. But finding Vihtavuori powder around here is not going to happen.. There's a lot of good powders to use in the little 223 rem/556, so I'll keep trying different powders. Been burning up a lot of my favorite powder in the 22-250's lately.
Morning BSA.
Growing up, two of my uncles did a lot benchrest shooting. They set a lot of range records, and the younger of the two even setting at least one world record in 100 yard heavy varmint benchrest. He burned a lot of H322 behind 52gr SMK in the old .222 Rem. Today it seems he uses more Vihtavuori powders, and custom bullets, but H322's still in his rotation. The older passes about 10 years ago. His main powder in the .222 and .223 Remington was W748, again, with the 52gr SMK.
Personally, I've burned less than a pound of it, mostly behind the 64gr BSB. It wasn't bad, a little over an inch with 5 shot groups, which is actually pretty good with that bullet, but IMR-4895 grouped better, consistently under an inch, about 0.75" to 0.9" with 5 shot groups. I was hoping the H322 would edge it out. Unlike Imr-4895 it meters like water, and unlike H335 it's more temp stable.
I picked up a nice batch of the 70gr RDF's from the shooters proshop. Once it warms up a bit, QL's telling me to try H-322 behind them, but I'll probably focus on the Shooters World powders and TAC for now since I have more of those on hand.
It's interesting to note how your favorite, AR-Comp performs on this simulation:
Cartridge : 5.56 mm NATO - 5.56 x 45 mm
Bullet : .224, 70, Nosler RDF HPBT 53066
Useable Case Capaci: 24.146 grain H2O = 1.568 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
34 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 70%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 106.5 22.9 1.49 2814 100.0 61500 10350 0.804 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 102.4 24.5 1.59 2809 97.2 61500 11366 0.803 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 108.0 23.5 1.52 2807 99.9 61500 11089 0.836 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 110.0 24.5 1.59 2802 94.7 61289 11662 0.812 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 104.9 25.5 1.65 2799 96.0 61500 11524 0.810 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223 *C 109.9 26.7 1.73 2795 92.4 61500 11682 0.802 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game 110.0 26.1 1.69 2792 93.9 61251 11501 0.804 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 107.9 24.8 1.60 2792 97.9 61500 11177 0.818 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Match Rifle 107.9 24.8 1.60 2792 97.9 61500 11177 0.818 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 105.5 24.8 1.60 2792 97.9 61500 11177 0.818 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 110.0 22.9 1.48 2788 99.4 58041 11110 0.824 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 106.8 23.8 1.54 2782 95.4 61500 11336 0.814 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 103.2 22.3 1.44 2777 99.2 61500 10686 0.806 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 97.0 22.3 1.44 2777 99.2 61500 10686 0.806 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 97.2 23.6 1.53 2773 98.5 61500 10881 0.810 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 104.8 24.9 1.62 2773 94.5 61500 11241 0.809 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 107.0 23.8 1.54 2773 94.7 61500 11270 0.814 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 *C 107.9 23.6 1.53 2773 98.6 61500 10889 0.815 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 *C 110.0 24.8 1.60 2766 98.4 61436 10942 0.813 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 *C 110.0 24.5 1.59 2765 93.5 59935 11399 0.821 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 102.7 23.0 1.49 2761 96.3 61500 10940 0.811 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 100.6 21.1 1.37 2753 100.0 61500 10139 0.821 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B *C 110.0 24.5 1.59 2752 94.0 58712 11356 0.829 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 105.0 23.4 1.51 2752 96.2 61500 10821 0.812 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 *C 108.2 23.6 1.53 2750 96.3 61500 10932 0.825 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5 100.7 24.0 1.56 2747 97.2 61500 10755 0.827 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 100.4 24.0 1.56 2747 97.2 61500 10755 0.827 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 102.6 23.3 1.51 2741 99.2 61500 10346 0.812 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 103.4 22.0 1.43 2737 100.0 61500 10056 0.826 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.4 98.7 23.6 1.53 2735 97.1 61500 10559 0.824 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus 98.7 23.6 1.53 2735 97.1 61500 10559 0.824 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C 96.7 21.0 1.36 2735 100.0 61500 9906 0.834 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 99.6 24.0 1.55 2727 95.4 61500 10579 0.821 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 97.4 22.4 1.45 2724 97.1 61500 10424 0.815 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 101.4 24.1 1.56 2720 94.4 61500 10626 0.817 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 103.7 24.9 1.61 2720 91.0 61500 10809 0.816 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 99.7 19.9 1.29 2718 100.0 61500 9400 0.806 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 103.7 23.4 1.52 2717 92.4 61500 10615 0.813 ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2 95.2 22.6 1.46 2715 97.1 61500 10327 0.816 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 103.4 22.7 1.47 2714 96.9 61500 10328 0.816 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207 95.0 19.8 1.28 2712 100.0 61500 9296 0.821 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Precision 110.0 23.8 1.54 2712 95.6 57926 10851 0.842 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 110.0 23.8 1.54 2712 95.6 57926 10851 0.842 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Tactical Rifle 97.7 23.2 1.50 2709 95.7 61500 10298 0.816 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 110.0 25.0 1.62 2708 90.9 57987 11058 0.837 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133 *C 109.4 22.3 1.44 2708 99.9 61500 9669 0.814 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 296 74.7 17.9 1.16 2705 100.0 61500 9262 0.827 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 86.8 20.2 1.31 2704 99.7 61500 9748 0.813 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 110.0 24.1 1.56 2703 93.1 57420 10791 0.827 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S060 106.2 23.0 1.49 2702 94.7 61500 10328 0.815 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 83.1 17.7 1.15 2702 100.0 61500 9472 0.807 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D060 85.0 17.7 1.15 2702 100.0 61500 9472 0.807 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle 85.0 17.7 1.15 2702 100.0 61500 9472 0.807 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-7 94.1 20.3 1.31 2701 100.0 61500 9475 0.824 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 *C 103.1 21.5 1.39 2699 100.0 61500 9532 0.821 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 110.0 24.8 1.60 2695 94.2 54476 11178 0.862 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206 105.4 23.2 1.50 2694 95.3 61500 10211 0.815 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 95.9 20.1 1.30 2689 99.1 61500 9607 0.809 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 110.0 24.0 1.55 2685 97.6 53114 11072 0.891 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 110.0 23.8 1.54 2680 92.5 57288 10628 0.834 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE BLK *C 94.1 22.2 1.44 2679 96.3 61500 9971 0.819 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D063 79.8 18.5 1.20 2675 100.0 61500 9038 0.808 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Blackout 79.8 18.5 1.20 2675 100.0 61500 9038 0.808 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET *T 110.0 23.7 1.53 2670 92.3 56635 10588 0.838 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 90.3 18.4 1.19 2668 100.0 61500 8750 0.812 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 *C 97.6 19.8 1.28 2668 100.0 61500 8674 0.823 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C 92.2 19.1 1.24 2665 100.0 61500 8677 0.823 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 89.7 18.3 1.18 2658 100.0 61500 8702 0.811 ! Near Maximum !
Thanks for the info. Yeah, looks like AR Comp might work well with that 70RDF. What has surprised the hell out of me is how well its working in the 22-250 with those 53's I have a big stash of now. I ended up buying the store out. The manager said no one else was buying them and I could buy the whole shelf If I wanted. When all was said and done, I had 2,500 more of those in my supply. I think I might run to the store and maybe buy a couple pounds of that H322 too. Just to try it out. Heck, it may even work in the 6x45 if nothing else?? Cool stories about your uncles too. Sounds like you had some good role models.
H322 has been the very best for me with 50-55 grain bullets.
H335, and 748 being very close behind and both giving higher velocities.
H4895 is the best I have used with 69-75 grain bullets.
748 is ungodly temp sensitive and no one I know in the AR game has used that since the 90s. So many better.
As noted 4895 is so picky and sensitive. Often really accurate. But awfully slow with mid range bullets like the 69-75s. Slower still with 80 plus grain bullets.
Just comparing notes here.
Finally found the replacement nipples for the musket you worked on. Now that I finally have musket nipples gonna shoot it some next fall again and enjoy it. Thanks. Lets just hope we finally can get consistent ignition which was the worst issue with that gun. Never had so many misfires with a black powder gun in my life.
Jeff
H322 on the other hand has a great reputation. The old pre-extreme versions won a lot of benchrest matches.
AS, how much experience have you had with H322? I saw a bunch earlier today, but have never ran it. I see in this thread that some like it. I'm glad MM started this thread because with these shortages, we try different powders to try and match our favorites. I haven't found a powder yet that matches AR Comp, but I keep trying. Hell, I even tried benchrest powders like LT30/32 etc... also, if I ever run across some N133, I'll snag it. But finding Vihtavuori powder around here is not going to happen.. There's a lot of good powders to use in the little 223 rem/556, so I'll keep trying different powders. Been burning up a lot of my favorite powder in the 22-250's lately.
How was your experience with LT-30? I bought some last spring and just loaded some of it tonight to try with some 50 gr. bullets in my 1:12 twist H&R .223 Rem.
Hudge, I tried it with the 77gr SMK and got decent accuracy, but slow speeds. I also messed around with it when I bought 1,000 75gr HPBT Hornady bulk match bullets from midsouth. Same thing basically, but not as good of accuracy. I had to give up on that powder. At the same time I was trying a lot of different powders like I mentioned before. TAC, X-terminator (luckily I found a bunch of that powder locally for $30/pound) H335 etc.. During that time, my supply of AR Comp was dwindling pretty bad. I had quite a few rounds loaded up with my favorite recipe and 69gr SMK, but was down to about about 1/2 pound of powder. So, like a lot of you guys here, I had to experiment with a lot of different powders. Luckily one of my buddies that is in my club had some powder and it was the LT30 and LT32. He had a pound of each and I bought it for cheap. Something like $25/pound. The LT32 was used more for my 6x45 and it seemed to work well for that application, using bullets like 85gr SGK. I really liked how the LT powders metered though. I had high hopes for them, as they were designed for benchrest applications. I believe to be used in the 6PPC though. With lighter bullets like your 50 grainers, LT30 may work real well in your 223 rem. Speeds in the 3,000-3,200 fps area should be obtained. In a bolt gun, I'd expect excellent accuracy. But I generally expect that in any heavy barreled bolt action.. I load for one of my buddies heavy barreled bolt guns (used to be my Savage Predator) and that thing is hard to work up a bad load in. If you don't mind, let us know how that LT30 works out for you. Oh, one other thing, if you load it in an AR15, I did make a note that it seemed like the pressure was low, as the loads I was running for accuracy did not want to hold the bolt back on the last shot.. Like I say though, they were pretty slow..
I use TAC in my wife and myself Savage Axis rifles in 223 behind a Sierra 40 gr Blitz King. In the AR-15 Match with a Wylde chamber I use VV N140 behind the 77 gr. Sierras and N540 behind the 80 gr Sierras.
I’ll try some AR Comp and what is MM’s go to 8208?
Right now I’m glad to have TAC and Lever on hand
TAC is plenty good.................if you've got enough, I wouldn't worry about getting anything else.
I think 8208 is marginally more accurate day in, day out across different guns & bullet weights, but TAC is plenty good enough.
Try some VV-540 & VV-140 if you can ever get your hands on any but it's mucho dinero.
That's a really good thing about TAC right now.................it's on the cheaper side for powder today, by a goodly amount................Powder Valley consistently gets it in & prices it at about $210'ish for an 8 lb'er.
MM
Paul, here, just sent me a link, so I can try some of your favorite powder.. Midsouth has/had it in stock..
210 sounds so high. LOL. well not really but what else can one do.
If I found TAC that I could get my hands on I'd be willing to pickup up a couple of 8s for sure.
Won't do it now since folks are still short on powders but once everyone kind of gets back to normal I would.
We used TAC with 77s for our NTIT loads. It shot the best across a range of rifles since we had to share ammo across everyones guns. Dont' recall that it was really fast but IIRC we were in the 2700s with 20 inch tubes and 77s. I'm not even sure we moly coated those at the time. It was plenty accurate though. Anytime I missed the silhouette at 600 it was my fault totally. Was easy to call left and right side shots on the target too. Or to shoot favors with.
As others have noted there may well be much better powders now.
On a side note. Friend has quick load. Anytime I try to play new, he will send data, but its never been what I'd consider close data and as such I back way off anthyhing it says just to be safe.
Is that data entry or just the way quickload is?
Its been both ways too. High and low.
Its sure way off on subsonic loads, but those things are so dang weird anyway.
TAC Benchmark is great, but TAC meters better and unless you are shooting benchrest accuracy is the same. YMMV.
Late to the party here but some of my results with 50 - 55's.
Prairie Dog load of a 50 V-max & Benchmark. Recommended to me by a bud I call for anything, absolutely anything AR. Benchmark or Tac for light bullet high volume shooting he said & I bought the BM.. I've burned about 12 pounds of it since & wouldn't change a thing. Maybe????????? a bit dirty?
Then a fluke or ringer I have... a box stock SS Mod 7 Rem. A 55 NBT that I like over an old choice for my 222/52MK powder, IMR 4198. For the 223 my load is pretty hot & would be max or better in some guns. Like I said, a fluke? It shoots in the 3's or less.
Seems the 223 might be pretty happy with several combo's. CFE is likely gonna give more speed, but Benchmark or Tac gonna gives me more loads per pound........these days, a big plus.
210 sounds so high. LOL. well not really but what else can one do.
If I found TAC that I could get my hands on I'd be willing to pickup up a couple of 8s for sure.
Won't do it now since folks are still short on powders but once everyone kind of gets back to normal I would.
We used TAC with 77s for our NTIT loads. It shot the best across a range of rifles since we had to share ammo across everyones guns. Dont' recall that it was really fast but IIRC we were in the 2700s with 20 inch tubes and 77s. I'm not even sure we moly coated those at the time. It was plenty accurate though. Anytime I missed the silhouette at 600 it was my fault totally. Was easy to call left and right side shots on the target too. Or to shoot favors with.
As others have noted there may well be much better powders now.
On a side note. Friend has quick load. Anytime I try to play new, he will send data, but its never been what I'd consider close data and as such I back way off anthyhing it says just to be safe.
Is that data entry or just the way quickload is?
Its been both ways too. High and low.
Its sure way off on subsonic loads, but those things are so dang weird anyway.
Natchez has TAC in stock.
210 sounds so high. LOL. well not really but what else can one do.
If I found TAC that I could get my hands on I'd be willing to pickup up a couple of 8s for sure.
Won't do it now since folks are still short on powders but once everyone kind of gets back to normal I would.
We used TAC with 77s for our NTIT loads. It shot the best across a range of rifles since we had to share ammo across everyones guns. Dont' recall that it was really fast but IIRC we were in the 2700s with 20 inch tubes and 77s. I'm not even sure we moly coated those at the time. It was plenty accurate though. Anytime I missed the silhouette at 600 it was my fault totally. Was easy to call left and right side shots on the target too. Or to shoot favors with.
As others have noted there may well be much better powders now.
On a side note. Friend has quick load. Anytime I try to play new, he will send data, but its never been what I'd consider close data and as such I back way off anthyhing it says just to be safe.
Is that data entry or just the way quickload is?
Its been both ways too. High and low.
Its sure way off on subsonic loads, but those things are so dang weird anyway.
Natchez has TAC in stock.
Thanks. Folks still looking for powder and I'll let em buy it. I have surplus powder probably over 100 pounds left yet and who knows how much N540 to use if I have to.
But TAC one day I'll grab a couple 8s just for back up.
210 sounds so high. LOL. well not really but what else can one do.
If I found TAC that I could get my hands on I'd be willing to pickup up a couple of 8s for sure.
Won't do it now since folks are still short on powders but once everyone kind of gets back to normal I would.
We used TAC with 77s for our NTIT loads. It shot the best across a range of rifles since we had to share ammo across everyones guns. Dont' recall that it was really fast but IIRC we were in the 2700s with 20 inch tubes and 77s. I'm not even sure we moly coated those at the time. It was plenty accurate though. Anytime I missed the silhouette at 600 it was my fault totally. Was easy to call left and right side shots on the target too. Or to shoot favors with.
As others have noted there may well be much better powders now.
On a side note. Friend has quick load. Anytime I try to play new, he will send data, but its never been what I'd consider close data and as such I back way off anthyhing it says just to be safe.
Is that data entry or just the way quickload is?
Its been both ways too. High and low.
Its sure way off on subsonic loads, but those things are so dang weird anyway.
Natchez has TAC in stock.
Thanks. Folks still looking for powder and I'll let em buy it. I have surplus powder probably over 100 pounds left yet and who knows how much N540 to use if I have to.
But TAC one day I'll grab a couple 8s just for back up.
Dude, you must shoot a LOT!
We used to. Bought a 200 pound keg of powder once, 4 bucks a pound at that rate IIRC. In the 90s.
Used to load upwards of 15-20K 223 a year. It took a lot of constant practice for us to stay near the top of the pack in service rifle for Carolyn and I. We are far from naturals at it and far from good shots.
No longer. Doesn't take much for us to kill a pig or deer or moose, no practice required. LOL.
But I do still tinker... like the load for the M1 Garand I'll take this fall as my backup to moose as a guide.
And I prefer to keep stock on hand just in case.
H322 has been the very best for me with 50-55 grain bullets.
H335, and 748 being very close behind and both giving higher velocities.
H4895 is the best I have used with 69-75 grain bullets.
748 is ungodly temp sensitive and no one I know in the AR game has used that since the 90s. So many better.
As noted 4895 is so picky and sensitive. Often really accurate. But awfully slow with mid range bullets like the 69-75s. Slower still with 80 plus grain bullets.
Just comparing notes here.
Finally found the replacement nipples for the musket you worked on. Now that I finally have musket nipples gonna shoot it some next fall again and enjoy it. Thanks. Lets just hope we finally can get consistent ignition which was the worst issue with that gun. Never had so many misfires with a black powder gun in my life.
Jeff
H322 on the other hand has a great reputation. The old pre-extreme versions won a lot of benchrest matches.
AS, how much experience have you had with H322? I saw a bunch earlier today, but have never ran it. I see in this thread that some like it. I'm glad MM started this thread because with these shortages, we try different powders to try and match our favorites. I haven't found a powder yet that matches AR Comp, but I keep trying. Hell, I even tried benchrest powders like LT30/32 etc... also, if I ever run across some N133, I'll snag it. But finding Vihtavuori powder around here is not going to happen.. There's a lot of good powders to use in the little 223 rem/556, so I'll keep trying different powders. Been burning up a lot of my favorite powder in the 22-250's lately.
How was your experience with LT-30? I bought some last spring and just loaded some of it tonight to try with some 50 gr. bullets in my 1:12 twist H&R .223 Rem.
Hudge, I tried it with the 77gr SMK and got decent accuracy, but slow speeds. I also messed around with it when I bought 1,000 75gr HPBT Hornady bulk match bullets from midsouth. Same thing basically, but not as good of accuracy. I had to give up on that powder. At the same time I was trying a lot of different powders like I mentioned before. TAC, X-terminator (luckily I found a bunch of that powder locally for $30/pound) H335 etc.. During that time, my supply of AR Comp was dwindling pretty bad. I had quite a few rounds loaded up with my favorite recipe and 69gr SMK, but was down to about about 1/2 pound of powder. So, like a lot of you guys here, I had to experiment with a lot of different powders. Luckily one of my buddies that is in my club had some powder and it was the LT30 and LT32. He had a pound of each and I bought it for cheap. Something like $25/pound. The LT32 was used more for my 6x45 and it seemed to work well for that application, using bullets like 85gr SGK. I really liked how the LT powders metered though. I had high hopes for them, as they were designed for benchrest applications. I believe to be used in the 6PPC though. With lighter bullets like your 50 grainers, LT30 may work real well in your 223 rem. Speeds in the 3,000-3,200 fps area should be obtained. In a bolt gun, I'd expect excellent accuracy. But I generally expect that in any heavy barreled bolt action.. I load for one of my buddies heavy barreled bolt guns (used to be my Savage Predator) and that thing is hard to work up a bad load in. If you don't mind, let us know how that LT30 works out for you. Oh, one other thing, if you load it in an AR15, I did make a note that it seemed like the pressure was low, as the loads I was running for accuracy did not want to hold the bolt back on the last shot.. Like I say though, they were pretty slow..
BSA,
I got out today and shot the .223 Rem load I worked up with LT-30. 20.6 gr. gave me a .55” 5 shot group from a single shot NEF Handi Rifle. This was with 50 gr. PPU bullets and CCi BR4 primers and once fired PMC brass. I did not chronograph it, but I will load up about 20 more to see if it repeated and to see what velocities are. I’m guessing pretty slow, it was like shooting a 22 LR, not that .223 kicks though.
Hudge, accuracy sounds great. Yeah, you may want to check velocities. The reason I'm bringing this one back to the top is because I ran across a bunch of Leverevolution powder for $35/pound. I believe the only one that mentioned it was TWR, however I know 79s and stick has mentioned it in other threads. What is your guys' experience with it in the 223rem?
Way back when, big stick mentioned using 75 gr bthp's in the 223 with leverevolution he said to work up to 25 grs. I use gi brass and cci 400 primers it has worked well in 16" and 18" guns. The 16" has a 5.56 chamber and the18" is a wylde when I tried them in my 1 in 8" hb tikka the groups were good but showing more pressure than either ar. The Tikka of course has a saami spec 223 chamber. I would mention that for powders lever doesn't get mentioned in manuals at all for the 223 so if you choose to use it you are on your own. Stick does know his ass from a hole in the ground but he don't care about anyone's feelings....mb
Way back when, big stick mentioned using 75 gr bthp's in the 223 with leverevolution he said to work up to 25 grs. I use gi brass and cci 400 primers it has worked well in 16" and 18" guns. The 16" has a 5.56 chamber and the18" is a wylde when I tried them in my 1 in 8" hb tikka the groups were good but showing more pressure than either ar. The Tikka of course has a saami spec 223 chamber. I would mention that for powders lever doesn't get mentioned in manuals at all for the 223 so if you choose to use it you are on your own. Stick does know his ass from a hole in the ground but he don't care about anyone's feelings....mb
Thanks MB. Good info.
Hudge, accuracy sounds great. Yeah, you may want to check velocities. The reason I'm bringing this one back to the top is because I ran across a bunch of Leverevolution powder for $35/pound. I believe the only one that mentioned it was TWR, however I know 79s and stick has mentioned it in other threads. What is your guys' experience with it in the 223rem?
Work up to 25-26gr I have a load using 24.0 with nosler 55gr ballistic tips. It’s sub moa load in my rifle.. Sometimes the high end doesn’t net you accuracy but definitely get you speed. That 24.0gr load is close to 3000 out of my 18inch barrel.
I’ve got a few pounds if LeverRevolution and know where more is if I run out. I think I will give it a try and work up to possible 24-25 gr. max.
I’ve got a few pounds if LeverRevolution and know where more is if I run out. I think I will give it a try and work up to possible 24-25 gr. max.
Keep us posted, if you don't mind. I was glad to see more powder at the LGS here as well. They had plenty of Lever. I asked the guy about it and he said, "it works well in the 30-30". I asked if he had ever tried it in the 223 and he said no..
Hudge, accuracy sounds great. Yeah, you may want to check velocities. The reason I'm bringing this one back to the top is because I ran across a bunch of Leverevolution powder for $35/pound. I believe the only one that mentioned it was TWR, however I know 79s and stick has mentioned it in other threads. What is your guys' experience with it in the 223rem?
Work up to 25-26gr I have a load using 24.0 with nosler 55gr ballistic tips. It’s sub moa load in my rifle.. Sometimes the high end doesn’t net you accuracy but definitely get you speed. That 24.0gr load is close to 3000 out of my 18inch barrel.
Thanks buddy. The reason I was looking at different powders like Lever is Seafire has me worried about using H335 because it has been known to be bi-polar. ha ha.. I am thinking I am going to sell at least 5 pounds of it at my clubs gunshow in Washington next month. I've never had issues with it, but I also don't want to blow my gun up if the H335 decides to go whacko.. Anyone else here ever see that with H335?
Thanks buddy. The reason I was looking at different powders like Lever is Seafire has me worried about using H335 because it has been known to be bi-polar. ha ha.. I am thinking I am going to sell at least 5 pounds of it at my clubs gunshow in Washington next month. I've never had issues with it, but I also don't want to blow my gun up if the H335 decides to go whacko.. Anyone else here ever see that with H335?
No. But it is temp sensitive. I don't believe Oregon gets the temp extremes to make it "whacko". You know the military uses a version of H335, right? WC844.
H335 never gave me any trouble in our hot humid summers but I had heard it could so I never loaded it to max.
Thanks buddy. The reason I was looking at different powders like Lever is Seafire has me worried about using H335 because it has been known to be bi-polar. ha ha.. I am thinking I am going to sell at least 5 pounds of it at my clubs gunshow in Washington next month. I've never had issues with it, but I also don't want to blow my gun up if the H335 decides to go whacko.. Anyone else here ever see that with H335?
No. But it is temp sensitive. I don't believe Oregon gets the temp extremes to make it "whacko". You know the military uses a version of H335, right? WC844.
Yeah, you are probably right. It doesn't get hot there..
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/lCvSrzz.jpg)
When and where is that gunshow in WA?
When and where is that gunshow in WA?
Carson. April 2nd.
LVR in 223 is a great powder, I use 25 grs with a 75 Hornady Match BTHP. 26grs with the 69 match BTHP.
I reckon it might work with 65's, haven't tried these though.
Midsouth Shooters has one pounders of TAC in stock. Not sure about the limit.
Midsouth Shooters has one pounders of TAC in stock. Not sure about the limit.
OOS. You got me excited for a second there. XBR 8208, Varget, AR comp and CFE223 if you want velocity over everything else. CFE223 is not all that temp stable though
Midsouth Shooters has one pounders of TAC in stock. Not sure about the limit.
It is and has been on a lot of shelves here and elsewhere that I've seen too. Back when other powders were unobtanium, I was buying TAC and X-terminator, Big game and hunter locally for $30/pound. Now where I live, they have a bunch of TAC on the shelves for $36/pound. Definitely not my favorite powder, but it is available.
Powder valley had AR Comp for about ten minutes this morning. IME, when powder valley gets it, it’s not much longer until it shows up in the brick and mortar stores.
Powder valley had AR Comp for about ten minutes this morning. IME, when powder valley gets it, it’s not much longer until it shows up in the brick and mortar stores.
Holy chidt. I missed out, but I recently bought 10 pounds of it locally. You are absolutely correct about availability and stuff showing up on the shelves. That is a great sign. Means they are manufacturing the chidt and its headed to stores. Just a waiting game and finding which stores are not raping people..
Powder valley had AR Comp for about ten minutes this morning. IME, when powder valley gets it, it’s not much longer until it shows up in the brick and mortar stores.
Holy chidt. I missed out, but I recently bought 10 pounds of it locally. You are absolutely correct about availability and stuff showing up on the shelves. That is a great sign. Means they are manufacturing the chidt and its headed to stores. Just a waiting game and finding which stores are not raping people..
There’s only “degrees” of getting price raped these days. 🤠
They also had 22, 17, and 15.
Dang it, I need some 17, well I want some anyway.
Interesting on the CFE223 placed in with fast powders, TAC was way faster for me and Lever was faster still.