Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Elk bullets - calmly

My elk experience is very shallow compared to others here.
But this isn't art, it is science.


Penetration vs expansion?

Penetration is vastly more important.
A FMJ or hardcast bullet will kill through penetration with 0 expansion.
Period.
Well, except it may kill quite slowly.

An expanding bullet will not kill without penetration.
Period.

You have three choices.
Lean one way, sacrifice on the other.
The opposite.

Go right down the middle, get much of both while sacrifice a little on both edges.

I love Partitions.
What they sacrifice on the edges is not consequential.


Will say they are slower killers on deer, but most bullets will fully penetrate
our deer...another thread.

Yeah but have you priced Partitions lately? They make Barnes look cheap.

I don’t require, demand or really even want two holes, so the ultra tough or deep penetrating bullets aren’t terribly interesting to me. I also don’t like highly fragmenting bullets, though for straight lung shots they’re generally OK.
For elk, I like something in the middle. Old style Speer Grand Slams are my absolute favorite. Accubonds and partitions are good too, though I have never been impressed by Nosler’s accuracy. The heavier Speer hot cors are about like Noslers…..awesome killers and accurate enough, but not terribly so.

One day I need to try Sciroccos, Bear Claws, etc.

Some fragments of bullets from critters we shot last year as you can see the TSX stayed together better than most, cup and core, we normally don't recover a lot of classic mushroom bullets, we kill more than a few critters that will weigh over 600# live weight and that's where we catch most of our fragments. YMMV Rio7

I need to try the new Grand Slams I believe. Gunner has been torturing them pretty good and they've held up real well. The price on them is really damned good as well.

Stupid $$
Try the spitzer game kings. Well worth it

Deleted post! memtb

As a new elk hunter, I really appreciate this thread! thanks all for the great info.

I wish I had this thread when I first started elk hunting 25+ years ago. If I did, I wouldn't have shown up with a 9.5lb 338 WM shooting 250's as fast as I could make them go - and thinking I may be undergunned.........

TFF…. I don’t think you’re alone in suffering the mindset of youth, I certainly suffered the same ailment as you in my younger years. I do believe that we cared enough about the animals we hunted to use enough gun and that was a contributing factor in our choice of cannons in the early years. As we progress through the process of maturing in our outdoor endeavors our philosophies often change too. When I was younger I wanted enough gun to anchor the bull in its tracks and I would NEVER have considered using a .243 or similar but through the years one understands the dynamic forces involved in killing and our past experiences might convey more patience which might allow us the luxury of waiting for a good presentation before squeezing the trigger….something (patience) that most youngsters don’t possess.

Nowadays with modern bullets and great factory ammo available there are endless choices of cartridges that are at least satisfactory for elk hunting. I think personally I would likely choose a 6.5 Creedmoore as my baseline minimum for an elk rifle BUT if all I had was a 22-250 or a 243 that was accurate and the distance was reasonable I would not hesitate to take the shot in proper conditions and I have no doubt that I’d be eating fresh elk backstraps that night.

Good luck.

Above I neglected to say that I took all my elk with the TSX/TTSX bullets with the exception of one taken with 45 Colt.

Since about 1978 I have used Nosler Partitions, Speer Grand Slams, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, Hornady Interbonds, and Nosler Accubonds roughly in that order thru the years. They all filled the freezer and put horns on the wall.

Started with a 7mm Rem Mag but switched to a .300 Win Mag about 20 years ago.

I have had very good luck the last 8 years or so on bulls with the 230 gr Berger OTM.

Did fill a cow tag two years ago with a 140 gr Berger VLDH out of a 6.5-.284. Worked great at 650 yds.

My little group of hunters has killed close to 200 elk in my life time. The majority have been with Partitions, AB's and misc. Magnum rifles dominate with the 7 and 300 mags, being the most frequent.

The bullet that works at the widest velocity range, that I've found, is the accubond. 2000 fps impact speed gets me out to well over 600 yards, with my 338 rum and 225 grain accubonds. And...that bullet is tough up close. I shot a NM bull oryx at 67 yards, broadside, right through the upper leg joint, coming to rest under the hide on the opposite side just behind the leg, after going through a rib bone. Impact velocity was over 2900 fps, and the recovered bullet weighed 133.5 grains. That's the "hardest" test I've done with one, up close, and it retained almost 60%. Other bullets that I've recovered (less than half of the time), from elk and African plains game, average more like 65-70%.

The elk that I've shot with .338 accubonds (about a dozen) die quickly. Usually, dropping within 10 yards of impact....and, it's one bullet that I can break shoulders with OR punch through the ribcage, and get great results with either location. From point blank to about 500 yards, under ideal conditions.

The wife and I have killed quite a few elk with 200 grain accubonds, while doing combo deer/elk hunts, out of the 300 win. They work great too, but seem to open more quickly, and shed more weight on average.....perhaps having thinner jackets than the .338s? That would make sense to me, because the .308 bullets could be used in slower velocity cartridges...?

Dedicated "black timber" elk rifles that I use, are larger diameter bullets, with heavier constructed bullets. Those shots average about 50 yards, and seldom broadside.

Andy3

My experience is the the Barnes TSX does better then the TTSX The plastic tips on the TTSX sometime come off to one side and cause the TTSX to turn into an L or J and the bullets then tumbles and goes off course inside the game more so then the TSX.
Others I have come to like are the Nosler Partitions and the Swift A-Frames. The Nosler and the Hornady Bonded bullet haver given a good track record too. Norma Oryx is good also.

Now it must be said that all bullets are tools to make holes. The hole should go clear through and in a fairly straight line.
As cartridge's have given us faster and faster velocities bullet integrity has become more and more of a problem. So higher velocity gives the advantage of less drop but can cause problems at ranges closer then about 250 yards which is the range most elk are killed inside of.

I am old enough to have killed elk for over 50 years in 7 different states. Many years I killed several elk in different states in a single year.
To add to this, I was a guide and so most years I'd see and be involved in the kills of 5-10 times more elk then I killed myself. Back when most guns shot bullets at 2400 to 2700 FPS and most elk hunters favored heavy for bore weight bullets the problem of break-ups was there, but fewer in percentage of kills than we see today. Such problems is exactly what led the various companies to start making super good bullets, Nosler has been around since 1949, but most other "premium bullets" are a relatively new developments.

But in the days when 180 and 220 grain 30-06, 150 grain Remington CL 270s, 180 grain 308s, 300 mags with 220 grain bullets and quite a lot of 300 Savage and 8MM Mausers were seen in elk camps, we had fewer problems because men were hunters more then just shooters and also hunting was easier with less land being restricted to hunting, and more game overall.

My very first elk was killed when I was a boy with an iron sighted 300 Savage with a 180 grain bullet and it did the job and exited. My uncle used a 30-06 with 220 grain bullets and never had a problem. One man I knew (Mr Murry) used a K98 Mauser he brought back himself from WW2 and killed all the deer and elk he every shot with 1 round per animal.

But the velocities of these round with the bullets they used was slow as compared to many we see today. 45-70s were also used and several magnum handguns shoot faster then the factory 45-70
So coming back to the OPs question; The bullet needs to fit the game and the range but also the impact velocity. With fast modern guns, a firmly believe in the very best and toughest bullets. But if you shoot an older cartridge and load the gun with ammo that gives slower MVs I believe the use of so-called premium bullet may not be as necessary as many believe. NOT THAT IT'S EVER VA BAD WAY TO GO! That's not what I am saying. But always remember, bullets are tools to make bullet holes. Once a good sized hole goes clear through and exits in a straight line, all the damage you can do is done. The idea is to make that hole. Any tool that does it is as good as any other.

Bullets do not actually kill.
Bullet holes kill!

Having killed elk and moose with both ends of the bullet spectrum - match bullets like the AM/ELD-M and monos like Barnes - it seems to me that if we remove shot distance from the equation and assume terminal performance as intended for each bullet style, using one style or the other is a way to reduce risk while making certain assumptions. Match bullets like the VLD and others seem to reduce the risk of the animal running after the shot (this can be useful when on a mountain cliff) with the assumption that a good shot angle will be available. Deep penetrators like the monos reduce the risk of wounding when shot angles are not ideal, with the assumption that running a bit after the shot (on a broadside, rib shot, for example) is not a problem.

Put another way, it seems that the mentality behind using match bullets is that the animal will go a shorter distance after the shot, with the risk of it going a long way with a difficult shot angle. The mentality of choosing monos seems to be to guarantee that the critter runs a medium distance after the shot, with the risk that a short run can be an issue. One caveat is that, IME, critters hit with monos often go straight down if you’re willing to smash some bone and lose some meat.

Introducing distance into the equation adds another set of trade-offs, in the sense that match bullets reduce the risk of poor bullet placement at long distance, while monos reduce the risk of the bullet not reaching the vitals on steeper shot angles up close. Another caveat is that, using high-SD match bullets like the Berger Hybrid, AM, and ELD-M, at moderate impact velocities, IME with shooting elk and moose up close and at difficult shot angles, these bullets have penetrated plenty to destroy the vitals. But there is a greater risk of the bullet coming apart and not reaching the vitals than with the monos.

Killed my first elk 50 years ago this fall using a 270 loaded with 150gr Nosler partitions. Killed several more with partitions in various calibers as the years passed, plus many others with various controlled expansion type bullets. I’m most definitely in the 2 hole, full penetration camp. This year I’ll be chasing bulls with my 7mm Mashburn, loaded with either an NPT or possibly a 169 Hammer Hunter.

I am in the complete penetration camp and prefer mono's.

Have shot small game to moose with traditional archery equipment. A broadhead is always better at killing than a field point.

Have shot and witnessed hundred's of game animals from turkeys to cape buffalo being killed.
Mono's, C&C, NP's, Bonded, Scenars and ELD-M's, Grand Slams.

Specifically, have seen/killed elk with traditional archery and 243-375 caliber and most everything in between.

To my knowledge we never lost an animal because of bullet failure. Poor shot placement yes, bullet performance no. Have seen some terminal bullet performance that made me go hmmmm though. From soft to hard construction bullet type.

Instances that jump out to me. A 243 shot elk that took three good shots, and took a disconcerting amount of time to give up the ghost, A few shot with 270's that did not realize they were hit. A 210gr TSX out of a 338-06 that destroyed the ball joint out of the shoulder, went through vitals and exited through the liver. A 375 H&H shot elk that went about 20 yards, Was visibly hit hard and rocked, was a tough 20 yards to cover.

Right now I have Scenar, ELD-X, Hornady Interlock, BT, NAB, NPt, GMX, LRX, TSX, and TTSX loaded for my rifles. Will not hesitate to grab any of them for hunting this fall. They will all do the job, if i do mine.

Of course I do not plan on using the 22-250 with Scenars, or the 222 with GMX's on elk. Probably could get the job done, but SD has a 243 minimum on elk.

Sierra Game Kings. Good old fashioned cup and core bullet that performs well. I like to launch them from a caliber that is way bigger than what I need to use. I could never understand the notion of using the absolute smallest cartridge that will kill whatever I'm after if I hit it absolutely perfect. Dead is dead and there is no need to make an animal run 20, 40 or 100 yards before they pile up... Hit them with something that makes them crumble where they stand!