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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I still believe my question has merit. If we shoot a velocity ladder to look for flat spots in the charge vs velocity relationship with only one shot per charge, how do we account for the fact that at a given charge weight the resulting velocity is a random variable? When we shoot we are sampling from the distribution of its possible outcomes.
I would be more inclined to believe we've found a flat spot if we shot five or more rounds at each charge weight and then averaged the results to get our estimate of the velocity at that charge. Then if we see a flat spot in the charge-velocity relationship it would be more believable.
Companies such as Hornady and Sierra shoot many more shots at a given charge weight than just about any handloader will. I mention these two because they publish results for several charge weights, not just a min and max. Examination of their data doesn't reveal flat spots in the charge-velocity relationship. Yes, I made this very point early in this discussion. I guess FA believes his loads are capable of an ES of 1. I fail to understand why any of us shoot groups at all, statistics being bullschitt and all that. We should just shoot one shot. If it falls somewhere near the bull, call it good.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,945 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
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I wish I could pull up Denton's well thought out research on this topic.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,875 Likes: 8 |
I wish I could pull up Denton's well thought out research on this topic. If I recall correctly the cold barrel turns out to be quite the energy thief.
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Joined: Apr 2012
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2012
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I still believe my question has merit. If we shoot a velocity ladder to look for flat spots in the charge vs velocity relationship with only one shot per charge, how do we account for the fact that at a given charge weight the resulting velocity is a random variable? When we shoot we are sampling from the distribution of its possible outcomes.
I would be more inclined to believe we've found a flat spot if we shot five or more rounds at each charge weight and then averaged the results to get our estimate of the velocity at that charge. Then if we see a flat spot in the charge-velocity relationship it would be more believable.
Companies such as Hornady and Sierra shoot many more shots at a given charge weight than just about any handloader will. I mention these two because they publish results for several charge weights, not just a min and max. Examination of their data doesn't reveal flat spots in the charge-velocity relationship. Yes, I made this very point early in this discussion. I guess FA believes his loads are capable of an ES of 1. I fail to understand why any of us shoot groups at all, statistics being bullschitt and all that. We should just shoot one shot. If it falls somewhere near the bull, call it good. We should just shoot one shot. If it falls somewhere near the bull, call it good. It’s the first shot that counts yes. Go three days in a row one shot each day. But one day and find a group saves gas ! LOL
Last edited by anothergun; 10/18/23.
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,945 Likes: 7 |
Good god , trying to pick through all this is mind boggling., espeacially with nit picking
My question is , Is anybody getting great accuracy from 760 ?
I am on my last bottle of H414 and have a couple of 760
But haven’t seen great groups with it
Best being around 1,5”
So how about it , anyone getting great accuracy from 760 ?
Thanks , Kenneth Kenneth, again W760 and H414 are exactly the same powder, from the same manufacturer, packaged into different labels. It has been confirmed many times over many years from the distributors. H 414 & W 760 are the same W 540 & HS 6 are the same W 296 & H 110 are the same MRP & RL 22 are the same I am sure there are others
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Nov 2015
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2015
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Good god , trying to pick through all this is mind boggling., espeacially with nit picking
My question is , Is anybody getting great accuracy from 760 ?
I am on my last bottle of H414 and have a couple of 760
But haven’t seen great groups with it
Best being around 1,5”
So how about it , anyone getting great accuracy from 760 ?
Thanks , Kenneth If i get the time later this week, I will shoot one of my 243's at the 400 and 500 yard targets, and take a pic. It's a 20 inch barrel Remington 700 in a factory tupperware stock, with a Nikon 3.5X10 BDC. I'm shooting a 90 grain Sierra TGK with 760. On a good day, with no wind, I can shoot 2 inch groups at the 400 yard steel and almost as good at 500. For my old eyes I am satisfied. Also, I use 760 with an 85 grain Sierra HPBT in the 243, and I've never found a 243 that wouldn't shoot it into an inch or less at a 100 yards. I have used 760 with a 107 grain TMK in the 6.5 CM with very good accuracy, as well with a 120 grain Sierra soft point. 760 works well for me despite what others might say about it.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,875 Likes: 8 |
I believe HP38 and W231 were a similar pair.
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Joined: Apr 2012
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2012
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Good god , trying to pick through all this is mind boggling., espeacially with nit picking
My question is , Is anybody getting great accuracy from 760 ?
I am on my last bottle of H414 and have a couple of 760
But haven’t seen great groups with it
Best being around 1,5”
So how about it , anyone getting great accuracy from 760 ?
Thanks , Kenneth Kenneth, again W760 and H414 are exactly the same powder, from the same manufacturer, packaged into different labels. It has been confirmed many times over many years from the distributors. H 414 & W 760 are the same W 540 & HS 6 are the same W 296 & H 110 are the same MRP & RL 22 are the same I am sure there are others seems you and FA are in cahoots together, but not foorrr looong ! LOL
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Joined: Nov 2015
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2015
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I fail to understand why any of us shoot groups at all, statistics being bullschitt and all that. We should just shoot one shot. If it falls somewhere near the bull, call it good. I a rifle that I am going to deer hunt with, that is pretty much right on spot. It is the first shot out of a cold barrel that's going to count. To be honest about it, we really are wasting our time and money when we try to over complicate things.
Last edited by JamesJr; 10/18/23.
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Joined: Apr 2012
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I fail to understand why any of us shoot groups at all, statistics being bullschitt and all that. We should just shoot one shot. If it falls somewhere near the bull, call it good. I a rifle that I am going to deer hunt with, that is pretty much right on spot. It is the first shot out of a cold barrel that's going to count. To be honest about it, we really are wasting our time and money when we try to over complicate things. You don't believe that if you have a mediocre group short range, that farther down range it won't spread out ?
Last edited by anothergun; 10/18/23.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,875 Likes: 8 |
I fail to understand why any of us shoot groups at all, statistics being bullschitt and all that. We should just shoot one shot. If it falls somewhere near the bull, call it good. I a rifle that I am going to deer hunt with, that is pretty much right on spot. It is the first shot out of a cold barrel that's going to count. To be honest about it, we really are wasting our time and money when we try to over complicate things. How much shooting I do depends on what I'm trying to accomplish. Over time I established several loads that my 700 Classic in 300 Savage shoots quite well. The weekend before last I assembled a batch of the one I wished to hunt with to start the season. I went to the range to check the zero. The first two shots almost went through the same hole, right where they were supposed to land. No need for more, the proof of load work was done long ago.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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guess two is a good number, after two the barrel warms up. OOO don't let FA know that !!
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Thank you Idaho
Look forward to it James
Kenneth
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,875 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,875 Likes: 8 |
guess two is a good number, after two the barrel warms up. OOO don't let FA know that !! Barrel temp doesn't amount to squat in the circumstance I described. The rifle and load combination shoots well hot or cold, clean or dirty. I know this from prior testing. Like I said, the combination was proven good long ago.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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guess two is a good number, after two the barrel warms up. OOO don't let FA know that !! Barrel temp doesn't amount to squat in the circumstance I described. The rifle and load combination shoots well hot or cold, clean or dirty. I know this from prior testing. Like I said, the combination was proven good long ago. So when you shoot a ladder, you just walk up vertically how far apart to see where two rounds land within each other ? I see a pic on this website of the ladder https://www.recoilweb.com/wp-conten...ong-range-shooting-ladder-test-board.jpg
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Joined: Nov 2015
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2015
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I fail to understand why any of us shoot groups at all, statistics being bullschitt and all that. We should just shoot one shot. If it falls somewhere near the bull, call it good. I a rifle that I am going to deer hunt with, that is pretty much right on spot. It is the first shot out of a cold barrel that's going to count. To be honest about it, we really are wasting our time and money when we try to over complicate things. You don't believe that if you have a mediocre group short range, that farther down range it won't spread out ? Here's my thoughts......I zero the rifles that I do my deer hunting with at 200 yards. I regularly shoot those rifles at ranges up to 500 yards, mainly just for the fun of it because I limit my shots on deer to 300 yards in most cases. Once I have that rifle zeroed, I'll check it again right before season opens by shooting it at 200 yards. As long as that shot is within what I call acceptable, I call it good. As I said, my first, and most likely, only shot at at a deer is going to be out of a cold barrel. Obviously, if that first shot is off by several inches, then that's unacceptable. I've seen guys shoot box after box trying to sight a rifle in, and it shot no better when they were finished shooting than it did before. In my hunting rifles, I'm not necessarily trying to shoot competition rifle groups, but groups that are consistent enough that I'm happy with.
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shooting box after box tells me they are watching the wind. I remember reading about Hathcock and how he watched the wind, down range. There's alot more to it than just popping off rounds. Sounds like those guys don't have a clue. Windflags or even slop skiers landing where they need to land because of windsocks. Wind speed and direction are measured at five different points based on average value, which is determined before every competition
Last edited by anothergun; 10/18/23.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,945 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,945 Likes: 7 |
I fail to understand why any of us shoot groups at all, statistics being bullschitt and all that. We should just shoot one shot. If it falls somewhere near the bull, call it good. I a rifle that I am going to deer hunt with, that is pretty much right on spot. It is the first shot out of a cold barrel that's going to count. To be honest about it, we really are wasting our time and money when we try to over complicate things. How much shooting I do depends on what I'm trying to accomplish. Over time I established several loads that my 700 Classic in 300 Savage shoots quite well. The weekend before last I assembled a batch of the one I wished to hunt with to start the season. I went to the range to check the zero. The first two shots almost went through the same hole, right where they were supposed to land. No need for more, the proof of load work was done long ago. Yes! No sarcasm in this one. I am working with a new 24 inch Remington 5R in 260. Lapua brass, Scenar 123, CCI 200, H100V I think. I sent the rifle and box of ammo home with my Son last night. Leupold VX 3i 3.5-10. I put about 20 -25 rounds through it laying down moly. And then she settled in. Each shot corresponded exactly to turret inputs. The last shot struck exactly 2.5 inches above POA at 200 yds. Just as expected by the previous three at 100 yds. I did not need four more with this rifle to know it was good to go for deer hunting out to 400 yds. Same with my old 670 in 30-06, or #1 in 7 STW. A couple fouling shots and then one for confirmation before season was all that was needed. Once the proper setting was found on the Hick's Accurizer with the #1 anyway.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,277
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I wish I could pull up Denton's well thought out research on this topic. If I recall correctly the cold barrel turns out to be quite the energy thief. Do tell. A cold chimney effects draft, velocity. When l checked draft on a stack, l had to wait for it to reach temperature before taking a draft reading. But a barrel and bullet seems to be a bit different.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Loaded three with H414 to verify zero and three with 760 both 50.5 gr
Will check them out tomorrow
Kenneth
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