Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Phil Shoemaker - A Bear Pistol Question:

My point being that I don’t trust single action handguns in a crunch. Never shot at a bear.

It’s difficult to compare testing media to actual game animals, but you can compare various bullets and calibers in relation to each other in a test medium and then extrapolate with the results you have witnessed in game

That's what I always did, but changed my procedure to mirror Finn Aagaard's by adding 1/2" plywood at the front of a stack of wet compressed phonebooks.

But I haven't done any testing in a long time since phone books went the way of the Dodo bird.

Phil:
The question I am asking is what sort of penetration in dry paper did/do you get with the 9mm hardcast? I get about 10 in. with my 45 hardcast.

Thank you.

My point about mentioning wet and dry paper was to inform people that the relationship between calibers and bullets of know performance .

If you stack dry magazines tightly in a container you will be impressed by how little most bullets penetrate. I tried it with the 9mm and it only penetrated 3-4”. But in a bear it was more like 16-18”

Thank you for the answer sir. The reference point is important. Given everything, my .45 load appears to be adequate at least for the targets I am likely to encounter.

Now all I need to do is acquire your calm under stress and muscle memory. That will be a tall order.


BB
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"I knew John rather well and this is spot on."
JohnBurns: At the Linbaugh Seminars penetration tests were performed. These became increasingly more refined as time progressed. The results were readily available but I have not been able to find them now. Do you know where they are available? Thanks.

Phil:

I'm wondering how the Lehigh all copper "penetrator" bullets would do for that. I carry them often in both my 9mm and .45ACP. According to various YouTube videos, they penetrate very well and do serious tissue damage due to their "screwdriver" shape. Just wondering out loud here, but that might be a better option than hard cast flat point lead. I confess that I have personally never tried a comparison in either compressed paper nor an animal, just watched the gel tests. I'm not certain, but I think Buffalo Bore, or maybe someone else, commercially loads these bullets. I handload mine. Your thoughts?

I do not know.

To be honest I am not really interested in peneatration tests as a be all end all test of game performance.

Based on my on game experience using heavy for caliber/proper hardness cast bullets it's pretty easy to get enough penetration for game up to at least moose.

When penetration is the only metric it's easy to go down paths that might not offer the best total terminal performance/shootability for really killing critters.

I agree with you that the info would be nice to know but I don't have a source.

I too have been a bit apprehensive about penetration being more important than most anything else. I get needing to break shoulders during a charge, but having the bullet tear stuff up seems important too. I've shot enough critters with FMJs and other 'solids' and watched them run 100 yards before toppling to not be sold on penetration being everything.

My rather infamous mountain lion incident here on the 'fire was at least partly due to FMJs out of a .38 Special. That achieved total penetration through the chest but the damn thing lived long enough to tear some dogs up and myself to an extent.

Phil advocates hard cast, which makes TOTAL sense to me as you'll likely get good penetration, but also some expansion. I am guessing (hoping) they also aren't as prone to being deflected off course once bone or whatever else is hit, which I have seen some indications of FMJs doing.

As an aside, for non-dangerous game, I rather like my recovered bullet collection and never want nor demand an exit. Blood trails are the only reason why I can think of wanting an exit. Nirvana for me is finding the bullet or pieces lodged up against the hide on the far side.

I am well aware that expanding bullets that open wide or shed pieces and “dump energy” can be spectacular killers.
The problem is where and when they expand and no handgun has the energy to actually stop massive animals unless it hits the central nervous system.
Bullet penetration , and placement, are more reliable and controllable.

My post wasn't aimed at you. My apologies if that is the impression I gave.

It was in regards to hunters in general who claim complete penetration is an absolute requirement for them to be satisfied with a bullet's performance. Whether on dangerous game or not.

In testing bullets in dry media, it is not so much the penetration as I want to know if the bullet holds together. I shoot mostly WFN bullets in my handguns.

I am especially impressed with the Model 66 .357 shooting 200 grain WFN bullets at 1,200 mv.

A nice light K frame to carry and a deep penetrating heavy for caliber bullet.

I just picked up a Glock 20 in the 10mm Caliber. Looking at the Buffalo Bore hardcast lead load in 220 grain or their 190 grain monolithic solid. Going to carry this pistol while backpacking in NW Montana.

Any other load suggestions?


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[quote=458Win]A huge factor I was considering during the entire bear episode was , where were my friends/clients ? And were they in danger of a bullet passing through and hitting them ? A guide shooting a client is a bad career move, and if they also happen to be friends it’s inconceivable!
All those thoughts were in my mind before I began shooting ! It
I had a Hamilton Bowen 475 Linebaugh I could have been carrying, as well as my S&W 44 Mtn Gun stuffed with 320 gr BB loads. Both of those are much better hunting handguns, but would have been the worst things to use under the circumstances.

Phil, for a "charging bear" situation ( like your 9mm encounter) how would you rate a lower MV 44 "mag" load (more like warm 44 special) of ~1100 fps and a hard cast flat nose (WFN) or Keith-style 250+ grain (265-280 grain?) hard cast bullet? Do you feel that type of load would generate an acceptable balance of penetration and control-ability for repeat shots?

I ask, because you mention your S&W 629 4" Mountain gun is loaded with BB 320 grain ("stout") loads. Since your S&W 9mm was loaded with stout 147 grain hard cast loads, and had your "OK" for penetration and recoil management, just wondering why wouldn't you load your 44 mag Mountain Gun with a similar "easy-to-control, deep-penetrating" load.

Please accept my question simply as a curious thought process and not a critical comment, or advice. I have ZERO bear experience. You may have tested these type of "heavy 44 special loads", and dismissed them. Just curious on your past experience/testing and current view on this type of load for your 4" barrel .44 S&W revolver. You currently load it with a heavy BB 320 grain load, just curious why that heavy a load, based on your 9mm/147 grain, and 357 mag/180 grain comments.

Thank you in advance, and asked respectfully.

i am not a bear guide at all . if you own some brand revolvers which i do you need to read all of what Buffalo bullets has posted about using their loaded ammo with hard cast bullets ,which they do make excellent ammo as do other ammo manufactures do. i have seen some twisted framed revolvers in a 44 magnum after doing some resource and asking many questions , with a few ammo companies i got some great truthful answers. sorry but i own some of these problem revolver brands too that can be a dangerous problem with high pressure hard lead cast bear bullet ammo ? Pete53

It's entertaining, reading accounts of those arguing with or taking issue with Phil.

Sometimes, if one just shuts up and listens, he may actually learn something.

Hmm.....

DF

Too many forget that reading is generally more educational than speaking.
Too many forget speaking doesn't always project knowledge or experience.