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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I haven't ever seen a 700 extractor break.... I have.. I get 3-4 in per year to install new extractors.. Not to mention the extractors that need replacing on the various semi-autos that Rem. produces.. And yes, it has more to do with a properly cleaned chamber than anything else, but they still break.. Of the PF model 70s, I get one in maybe every 5 years with an extractor issue.. Of the CRF models I have never seen a broken one, but I have had some in with improper tension or, to repair/replace after some bubba decided to 'improve' it.. Forgot to mention: About a month ago, a good customer brought in a brand-new CZ bolt action in .458 Lott.. He'd bought about six boxes of very expensive ammo to test the action with before his hunt in Africa.. Most wouldn't feed - the nose of the bullet would jam up on the edge of the chamber.. Not much I could do - he was leaving the next day or so.. But IMHO, it's the design of the breech that was the main issue.. Nice thing about model 70s is the coned breech that sure makes for good feeding. The CZ has a flat breech, with a small, 90 degree 'step' before the chamber. I don't know why they do that and not install a coned breech.. All they're asking for is feeding problems..
Last edited by Redneck; 12/02/09.
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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Thanks, Jorge, but I was asking RyanScott.
The reason was was asking was that I have put tens of 1000's of rounds through M700's without seeing any of the problems you describe. That doesn't mean they can't happen, of course, but have also watched other people put a similar number of rounds through them, and only seen one problem, a possible (and I emphasize possible) accidental discharge, though it happened when the shooter (not all that experienced) was already set up to shoot at a caribou.
I haven't ever seen a 700 extractor break--though I know they do. Have never seen a bolt handle come off either, even though I've tapped on more than a few to get the bolt open, after I screwed up and loaded a round too hot. Again, I know the bolt handles can come off, but have never seen it myself in some tens of thousands of rounds shot through 700's.
This makes me suspect that the "epidemic" of 700 failures is due to both faulty maintenance OR the vast number of 700's in service.
In the same period, I've had a few failures with CRF actions of various types. So am still waiting to be convinced. I'm not saying that most of them don't work fine. For me, something is all or none. Since Remington isn't the best for anything I do, I have no use for them. Operator level issues: Short, checkered bolt knob. Inconveniently placed bolt release. Potentially faulty trigger: I've had SWAT snipers tell me their SOP is to leave the bolt open and not use the safety. Others say it's fine. Armorer level issues: Soft steel. It's just a tube with holes cut in it. Some people claim they aren't stiff enough but I'm not qualified to judge that. Separate recoil lug, requires pinning etc. Screw holes often misaligned, and undersized. Design issues: I like Sako extractors, unless I can do one better and use a Mauser claw. Anecdotal evidence of dirt and ice affecting ejector function. The bolt is sweated together. I've been up for way too long today to remember everything. Basically I am strongly biased to Sako and Mauser rifles. I do have a Remington clone, a Surgeon, which corrects most of the flaws I listed but retains the ejector and extractor from a Remington.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Ryan,
Thanks very much for the specifics. I don't necessarily agree with some of them, but you have some valid points.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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I guess I'm getting a little tired of the Remington bashing. Until some of the custom barrel makers started making bench rest actions in the late 70s, the Remington 700 action was it. The most accurate stiffest action with the fastest lock time, period. Someone once said only accurate rifles are interesting, if that's so then the Remington 700 was enthralling for decades. I hear lots of Ruger advocates but have yet to see one that would shoot with a Rem 700. Show me how many benchrest or long distance competitive shooters use them. The Remington 40x triggers are great, it takes an artist to tune a 700 trigger, Norm Thompson was one, mine are set at 2 1/4 lbs, sadly he passed away. If they didn't work the U.S. snipers wouldn't use them. They worked in Vietnam, they've worked in the MidEast and probably lots of other places I don't know about.
I see a lot of Ruger fans, and that's great, but I've never seen one that shoots as well as a Rem 700, period. Every Ruger I've owned (M77, Ruger No.1, Ruger P90) I've sold. I've kept every other gun I've ever bought, that includes Winchester, Marlin, Browning, Springfield, Remington and CZ.
As far as a DGR rifle, I understand there are issues with the action (including extractors) for rapid fire second, and third shots. I don't think the Rem 700 was ever made with that in mind, maybe it should have been. It was first and foremost an American hunting rifle that was cheaper to make than a Mauser action, but in no way suffered in accuracy. I have many thousands of rounds through mine, never had an issue either hunting, varmint shooting or at the range.
That being said I bought a CZ 550 for a dangerous game rifle, to a great extent based on Ganyana's article on the PH test results. It's a very nice rifle. It's accurate, strong, and after some significant work by the CZ Custom Shop, the action is smooth and it feeds flawlessy.
Regards,
Chuck
Regards,
Chuck
"There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit"
Ghost And The Darkness
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Campfire Outfitter
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Stay away from the 700 Safari of old. Very fine gun, but too damn heavy! But it does seem to balance well ....
George Associate Gypsy Order of Sleepless Knights ... That is when I carried you ...
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I have no use for Remingtons for play guns, let alone working guns. Their failings are well known, or ought to be.
Put this in perspective: some of my favorite weapons are Sako pushfeed rifles. So it's not even about that. Remingtons are simply junk. That's funny, cuz pretty much all I've ever used for bolt guns have been Remington 700s in cartridges from .222 and .223 up to 375 H&H and 375 Chatfield-Taylor. This "simply junk" you refer to has never FTF or extract or failed me in any other way. Try again. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/2439candace/Smilies/rolleyes.gif) .
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Seriously though, has anyone had a Rem 700 in 375 H&H? If so, how did you like it? How does the factory recoil lug hold up? Any feeding issues? General observations? Thanks. It will work fine just like any other 700. No feeding/extraction issues or recoil lug problems. .
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Norm Thompson ..., sadly he passed away. One of the great ones. I worked with Norm for over 4 years and miss him every day. He Smithed for over 50 years and his favorite action was the 700. Tells you something. The 700 has it's downfalls like any design but it really only shows them when it is neglected or in extreme conditions. That said, the 375 WBY I'm building will be on a left hand model 70 action. I can't bring myself to build a 375 on the 700.
"If all the good luck and all the bad luck I've had were put together, I reckon it'd make the biggest damned pile of luck in the world." Charlie Goodnight
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I guess I'm getting a little tired of the Remington bashing. Until some of the custom barrel makers started making bench rest actions in the late 70s, the Remington 700 action was it. The most accurate stiffest action with the fastest lock time, period. Someone once said only accurate rifles are interesting, if that's so then the Remington 700 was enthralling for decades. I hear lots of Ruger advocates but have yet to see one that would shoot with a Rem 700. Show me how many benchrest or long distance competitive shooters use them. The Remington 40x triggers are great, it takes an artist to tune a 700 trigger, Norm Thompson was one, mine are set at 2 1/4 lbs, sadly he passed away. If they didn't work the U.S. snipers wouldn't use them. They worked in Vietnam, they've worked in the MidEast and probably lots of other places I don't know about.
I see a lot of Ruger fans, and that's great, but I've never seen one that shoots as well as a Rem 700, period. Every Ruger I've owned (M77, Ruger No.1, Ruger P90) I've sold. I've kept every other gun I've ever bought, that includes Winchester, Marlin, Browning, Springfield, Remington and CZ.
As far as a DGR rifle, I understand there are issues with the action (including extractors) for rapid fire second, and third shots. I don't think the Rem 700 was ever made with that in mind, maybe it should have been. It was first and foremost an American hunting rifle that was cheaper to make than a Mauser action, but in no way suffered in accuracy. I have many thousands of rounds through mine, never had an issue either hunting, varmint shooting or at the range.
That being said I bought a CZ 550 for a dangerous game rifle, to a great extent based on Ganyana's article on the PH test results. It's a very nice rifle. It's accurate, strong, and after some significant work by the CZ Custom Shop, the action is smooth and it feeds flawlessy.
Regards,
Chuck Chuck: you pretty well answered your own questions. Things like "lock time" and benchrest accuracy (all virtues of the 700 to be sure) don't mean squat when hunting. You are correct the 700 makes for a superb benchrest rifle. Your Vietnam comment is true today. Most military sniper rifles are built on 700 actions (highly modified). Your statement of the 700 being a "cheaper" action than a 98 or one of it's clones (like a Model 70) is also spot on. The 40X trigger is a relatively new addition and why? because the previous trigger/safety was UNSAFE. Lastly if "bashing" is synonymous with stating facts, well I guess I'm guilty of that. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Look for the 700 to end it's military service life soon. For one thing, it's amusing that people will demand a different action for hunting dangerous game but will hunt the most dangerous game of all with a 700. The 700 became issue in Vietnam more because Winchester wouldn't sell to the USMC on their terms than for any other reason.
A model 70 is 250% stiffer than a 700.
And yes, Rugers aren't impressive.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Chuck, I don't think much was mentioned about the 700 being inaccurate, but that's a function of the barrel for the most part while the posts above were specifically regarding the action. I have 3-4 700s and they're fine - I just prefer a M70 for other reasons... and I think that was more or less the aim of RyanScott's post.. .... and after some significant work by the CZ Custom Shop, the action is smooth and it feeds flawlessy. ...which says a bunch.. Best to you..
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I am also a fan of the M70 and other good CRF actions, in particular the 98 Mauser, which is better in some ways than the M70. All of my dedicated dangerous-game rifles are CRF or one sort or another, and tuned to function perfectly.
But I do get a little weary of the claims that Remington 700's are junk or unreliable. Part of the "problem" is that so many have been built (over 5 million now I believe) that naturally gunsmiths will see more extractors break than on other rifles that haven't been produced in such numbers.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Tracker
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.... and after some significant work by the CZ Custom Shop, the action is smooth and it feeds flawlessy. ...which says a bunch.. [/quote] If you did "significant work" to a 700 by the Remington Custom Shop I bet the end result would be OK as well. I was taught by Pete Jackson a Remington gunsmith back in the 70's. I worked in a Remington authorized warranty center and replaced extractors on the 742 but never on a 700. I have never seen a bolt handle come off other than a 788 which was abused. I prefer the looks of a FN Belgian Mauser 98 Browning Safari but when push came to shove I bought a Remington Classic in 35 Whelen which is my favorite rifle and recently bought my son a 375 H&H Magnum Remington 700 SPSDG. We want to give the bears a GOOD SPANKING! There is nothing wrong with high temp silver solder. I have silver soldered rifle sights on many Browning A-5 12 gauge shotguns and never had any come loose. I say buy whatever floats your boat but it disgusts me to have people badmouth an American made product! whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Look for the 700 to end it's military service life soon. For one thing, it's amusing that people will demand a different action for hunting dangerous game but will hunt the most dangerous game of all with a 700. The 700 became issue in Vietnam more because Winchester wouldn't sell to the USMC on their terms than for any other reason.
A model 70 is 250% stiffer than a 700.
And yes, Rugers aren't impressive. I'm sorry but please explain how shooting an enemy with a sniper rifle at several hundred yards and completely undetected compares with shooting dangerous game, posibbly charging at less than 20 yards or closer have in common? I'll make it easier for you: NOTHING. That is the most specious argument one hears when explaining the 700s many maladies as a DANGEROUS GAME HUNTING RIFLE. Hey if you like the 700s good for you but the many facts posed here delineating it's numerous faults ae just that facts. You sure it's not 275%? besides who cares. jeez. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Separate recoil lug, requires pinning etc.
It is also the biggest recoil lug in the business and has more stock material behind it than any other action. Check the M98, tiny recoil lug and very little stock material behind the lug. The pinning is only an issue on swicth barrel guns.
Last edited by Mike378; 12/04/09.
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I don't know that the stiffness of the 700 matters. Some seem to care and go to great lengths to find something stiffer, or to sleeve a 700, others are happy with the 700 as issued. I am pointing out that it is hardly right to call the 700 a stiff action.
I think you miss the point about sniping rifles. The same people that tell you they need a CRF rifle to hunt buffalo will sometimes tell you a 700 is fine for hunting men. Why a rifle isn't either reliable enough or not reliable enough for both in the minds of some people is worth commenting on.
You'll note in fact that almost my entire post was about perceptions, rather than facts. You might want to re-read it carefully.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Most if not all full-auto rifles used by the military around the world are push-feed.
Interesting to hear your post was about perceptions. It sounded pretty much absolutely positive.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Having actually built (not talked about) a big Magnum on a 700 3.6" action in 400 H&H, I can tell you it works fine with the stock extractor as it is a low pressure well thought out cartridge. Were I to build another, it would be on a CZ controlled feed action....something about over 100 years of faultless performance. ![[Linked Image]](http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z231/leadloader/DSCN1124.jpg)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Paul Mauser also designed PF actions which worked very well.
I have a number of rifles chambered for what might be consiered "dangerous game" cartridges from .338 on up. A couple are on PF actions, most are CRF on 98's, M70's and CZ's. And yes, all have been tested in the field.
The one thing they all have in common is they feed and eject the cartridge in question perfectly, every time.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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