Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .416 and .450 Rigby(CZ)

Are they full -size mounts, pedestal, etc? The mice, I mean.

Was just reading all the grammatical errors in my last post. And the faulty arithmatic with energy hitting the buffs. I'm lost without spell checker so you can see what side of my brain I use most often. ANYWAY, I'm new around here and hope to post a picture soon. Have gotten to know safariman behind scenes as I'm from a family of big game hunters....hence the connection. But mostly I'm a sportsman first and just because I've done this or that doesn't give me the right to tell anybody what the truth is. Each of us has an opinion and that's all it is. It's not the truth for everyone !! Why sling arrows just because you're of a different mind set ? However, if arrows continue being thrown then the instigator is not a sportsman as he is not considerate of others. But lets not forget we have a right to defend ourselves from the onslaughts.

Howard Bell killed thousands of elephants with a 7 mm Mauser fmj. I wonder what he'd have to say about this 'stuff' regarding calibers. Certainly he would have had the common sence to use a bigger caliber but that little 7mm was all he had and he made it work. As has been said, it is shooting accurately in the right place that makes the difference. BUT there is a minimum caliber allowed on the dangerous game and as most of you know, it's the 375. IMO, it should be the minimum caliber on a lot more plains game as well. Bullet construction has vastly improved over the recent past and this makes a huge difference in acceptable calibers for the larger game. So the 30 calibers are going to do a lot better job than they used to.

AC

As you can well see from my advertisements etc. I too have a bit of in the field experience. Please enjoy the forum, consider yourself welcome and enjoy the conversations and bantering about. I did find it in poor taste to assume that jorge has a less valid opinion than yours, for whatever reasons. I am sure that you will find it best to state your opinion, back it up with whatever facts or experiences you deem appropriate and leave it at that. This is a very freindly chatroom / website which is why I post often, advertise here and rarely visit the other sites anymore. With your obviously tremendous amount of experience in Africa I am looking forward to hearing more from you and having some interesting and engaging conversations, maybe even gentlemanly debates! Best wishes and a warm welcome from......

Safariman

PS Are you going to SCI next month?

Thanks for all the replies,guys.Response was better than expected,and all posts are appreciatted.Just to be clear,I'm not ruling out the .375 H&H due to lack of power,as I feel it's success is well documented and speaks for itself,especially with todays bullets.The Rigby catches my eye because it's different, a little less commmon.For example, right now most of my shooting and hunting is done with a .307,.356, .375 Win, and a .444, all Winchester Big Bore leverguns.The Rem 700 in 270 Winchester only comes out when the range is going to be long or the hunting really rough.Just recieved a Boyds laminate for it from my wife, and immediatly bedded it and finished it.Looks good!I know the .375 is just as old,and very capable,but same could be said for 30-30 and deer.I really appreciatte all the insight,especially when it comes from those who have the experience and knowledge to know why they believe what they believe.Africa is still over the horizon somewhere,but I'd like to have plenty of experience with a heavy rifle before that day comes.I worry a bit about recoil,especially with a scope.Will a 2.5 straight power Weaver give adequate eye relief?I'm not a big guy,about 5'10,170lbs,but I find offhand most calibre's don't cause too much problem.Of course,the hardest thumpers I've shot are some handloaded 350gr 45-70 out of a ported 18.5 Marlin GG,12 guage 3" slugs out of a light single shot, and my .444.No real problems so far,and I feel like I'm getting better at handling recoil.Unfortunatly,no one I know has even a .375 H&H so I can't do a test run.I do load all my own ammo though,so maybe I can start light and work my way up.By the way,can I install crossbolts myself?Thanks again,one and all.

My dog wasn't in the debate (fight?), just a spectator reading the growls that were coming from what sounded like a lion's den. Guess that since Teddy Roosevelt is my mentor...speak softly and carry a big stick....and this is a sportsman den or at least the new guys, myself included, should show some respect to people they don't know, I thank you for the warm welcome. The recent pictures are a family treasure and fantastic. Photos are very clear...wonder what kind of a camera was used ??

AC of AR:

I just plain forgot the 505 Gibbs being the all-around rifle! How many Mice have you taken with yours?

xxcarlo, biggest rifle i own at the moment is a 45/70 in a guide gun. i have no experiance with the big bores other than i read everything i get my hands on. i have one heck of a fasination with the 416 bore and hope to have a 416 Taylor put together soon. you say you hand load and africa is still aways away. i say get which ever interests you the most and go from there, get familiar with your rifle. any 458 is a handloaders dream as if you include cast, there are hundreds of bullets out there. like i said my fasination is with the 416 so im a bit partial to the rigby myself

xxclaro,
Either of the cartridges you asked about will kick considerably harder than the lever guns you mentioned or the 12 ga. However, the felt recoil may be less depending greatly upon fitment of the rifle to yourself. Both the 416 and the 450 Rigby cartridges will produce significant amounts of recoil. You will almost certainly have to condition yourself to this level of recoil in order to be proficient with either cartridge. You are familiar with the old english statement about the stiff upper lip, I assume.

JJS,
I really do not understand your irrational behaviour. If one desires to become proficient with a true big bore (meaning 0.458" bore or larger) then they might as well do so with one of the biggest (and best). Size does matter, with regard to how quickly an animal can be incapacitated with a non-central nervous system hit.

I have taken no mice with a 505 Gibbs, but have taken a few buffalo. By the way, I no longer have a Gibbs, but that may change again someday.

safariman,
I find that this forum is like most others on the net. There are many who claim to be knowledgeable/experienced hunters who seem to be the only individuals I have ever met/heard of having the experiences they speak of (although some of these mythologies they speak of seem to show up in magazines and books). Many get very upset when you tell them that a 155mm howitzer will kick a 270 Win's arse (simple fact and yes it is an exaggeration). The 416 isn't a very good killer and that is why is was never very popular until Ruger introduced it in their M77 RSM and the babyboomers began going on their dream hunts to Africa. I found your sarastism refreshing, by the way. I often find myself wondering why I post on these forums anyway.

AC

Where's Phil Shoemaker when you need him?

AC, would you post your real name, so we can measure your largess and legend against the backdrop of humanity?

i really fail to see how a .416 diameter 400 grain bullet of good construction at 2400 fps can be called anything but a "good killer"

as far as being popular and having a track record the 505 has lil history as very few rifles have ever been chambered in it. plus recommending it as a persons first real african DGR seems just plain idiotic to me. a 570-600 grain bullet at 2000-2200fps is going to be an interesting experiance to say the least. i dont doubt the "killing power" of the Gibbs one bit but in this case it seems excessive in the extream unless the person is dieing to have one. a 375, 416 or 458 makes more sence.

guess that scared him off!

quote: I find that this forum is like most others on the net. There are many who claim to be knowledgeable/experienced hunters who seem to be the only individuals I have ever met/heard of having the experiences they speak of .
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And anybody that says the 416 is not a good killer (or that is not much better than a 300 Win Mag for chrissake), in spite of REAMS of verifiable data to the contrary as in PHs like Broom, Sanchez-Arino, and other individuals with proven track records, seems to fit the above quote to a tee, not to mention none of the questions posed to our new "sage" have been answered.

Incidentally, the real reason for the scarcity of the 416 Rigby prior to Ruger's re-introduction is simple. The 416 Rigby, like Holland & Holland's 500/465to name another example were proprietary cartridges that the makers refused to release the patent. Today, we no longer have that constraint, hence the popularity of the 416s which are being built by just about everybody. IF it didn't work, market forces would drive hunters elsewhere. AC if you personally have had bad experiences with the 416, why don't you come out with some specifics, but I have to tell you your initial posts here and questionable data are pretty unbelievable. Maybe you're right, you shouldn't bother. jorge

David,



Were you talking to me? I was under the impression that Mr Shoemaker never loaded is 505 up to factory spec (I recall reading 2000 to 2100 fps or so with a 525 gr pill, and I think I read that from one of his own posts, but my memory ain't so good anymore). I also recall that he had a hard time getting it to penetrate more than 18" or so. I have had it go clear through buffalo from front to rear. I also believe Mr Shoemaker is a big fan of the 458 Win mag. Again, I very likely could be mistaken. It would be great if Mr Shoemaker did chime in.

Jorge,

Since you have no first hand experience with anything larger than the 416 you have no way of knowing what you are talking about, with any degree of certainty. Simply put you are not qualified to state anything of an authoritative nature on this subject. Furthermore, the 416 Rigby was basically long dead and buried until Ruger resurrected it in the late 80's.

Might I suggest we simply stop this pointless and aimless arguing and simply agree to disagree.

AC

I don't fond it illogical. Till I quit buying more guns for me and $8000 hot tubs for my dearly beloved ( who thinks I'm an obsessed a**hole for all The guns I buy) and get to go serious DG hunting my 416 Rigby will be used mostly for barricaded rockchuck hostage rescue work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
( anyone else think this thread is starting to sound like blind guys describing elephants??)
( yeah , I'm back)

AC, still afraid to post your real name and credentials?

No name = no quals.

lol my 45-70 and 44 mags get used for the same purpose <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

AC: You must be either psychic or a woman in order to determine what my experience is. Be that as it may, there are others who've posted here with significant experience ( we are all still waiting for you to tell us yours) with 416s and 45s that concur of the efficacy of the 416s. Further, I've personally experienced how a 416 performs with a buffalo and a 375 and the difference is notable. I've said from the very start (as have others) that the 45s hammer buffalo with greater authority than the 416s, but by the same token the same folks agree the 416 is ideal for buffalo. IF the 416 was dead and buried like you say, then the 505, 450 Rigby and basically all other British big bores with the exception of the 470 were deader than dead before the recent resurgence.

There's nothing to disagree on. The 45 are more effective than the 416s and you are dead wrong that the 416 is only slightly better than a 300 or a 375. So we're still waiting for you to tell us about your specific bad experiences with the 416. jorge

Well, I think AC is just like my old physics professor. Been teaching for 25 years and has one year of experience. It's either right or wrong and by God, you better listen. Is this a power trip or what ??? A 416 isn't any good at taking down game because a white tail ran off. GO FIGURE THAT ONE OUT ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

We call that 25 one-year experiences, vs twenty five years of experience.

The first and last posts here may be the only ones with any reason, a question and a suitable answer. As this has degraded into a contest of who the better man is I will gladly weight in and stur the pot. I have used a .375 forever it seems so that has always been my critrea i.e. is it better than a .375 ??? Also I use a 165/.30'06 alot, so when I judge a light rifle is it better than that ???
Having said this and again saying I am very pragmatic in what I use, I have used other guns including 416's (taylor, rigby, remington) a 404, 458win (alot), 458 Lott (yuk) 460wby(yuk2), 500 jeff. The 416's where used during the time leading up to the 416 craze hit the U.S. market. The worked well, very well indeed. Better than my old battered .375, No.
I heard of a remington loosing a bolt handle during recoil, I had Taylor ammo confiscated because of headstamp, I had the Rigby run dry twice in the heat of battle. The rem was a 700 that INDEED had pressure problems with the early ammo, didn't feed and kicked like being struck by a automobile. The Taylor is a Blaser Ultimate, no more comment needed. The Rigby was a Dumulin and was okay for a 1000.00 rifle but it cost 4500.00. As said the "caliber" seemed to work out well, the guns where no friends of mine in the end. The 458 seemed to kill way better than the .375 and .416. The little I used the 500 , That thing is unreal. Truly a 1 shot rifle. Reciol is horrid for practice but boy does it kill. If my curcumstance dictated that I needed and Elephant stopper it would be a bolt action 50.

All in all the fellow is asking us to decide between a 416 or 450 ???

I don't and probably wouldn't (after sending my .458 to my brother) own another .40, .411, .416, .425, .45 caliber rifle. Realy no benefit over a .375 and the .50 is soooooo....much better.