Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .416 and .450 Rigby(CZ)

ProHunter, good reply.

The .416s are every bit as versatile in the field as the .375s, the only real difference is in the recoil when using the heavier bullet weights. The Remington and Rigby shoot seriously flat with 325 grain bullets and pack a real wallop at 250 yards. 300 yard gunning is well within the capability of a good marksmen with the .416s (Weatherby easily eclipsing that). The real question in handling the .416s over the 375 H&H is accuracy. The more recoil the less accurate one becomes. The 416s produce a typical 56 ft-lbs of free recoil energy (Wby excluded) as compared to roughly 39-42 ft-lbs in the 375 H&H.

Stepping to a .458 class with 500 grain bullets you will take roughly 65 ft-lbs of free recoil starting with the 458 Win and work into the 70 ft-lbs range with max Lott loads. The 450 Rigby shooting its factory loaded 465 grain bullet at 2400 will produce roughly the same. Big difference with these levels of recoil is reduced accuracy. The reason for the use of such a cartridge is not for hunting per say, instead it is a preferred essential for the PH who simply does not take chances. The .458s will flatten game at point blank as intended. Thats not to say they don't have long range capability. Even the 458 Winchester, which gets a great deal of bad press at times, shoots plenty flat with a Barnes 400 XFB. Lord knows its laid to rest a significant number of elephant, buffalo, and hippo and is now going on 50 years.

The .50s are surely killers and the bolt versions such as the 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffery are more potent than the great 500 Nitro Express. As such, the recoil in most weighted rifles is in the 85+ ft-lbs range. I certainly would not classify them as versatile or mainstream. They are stopper rifles and very specialized, offering the highest probability to ending a conflict.

If you are going to hunt, I would choose a 375 H&H or 416 Rem or Rigby. I would base it on my present battery. If I had a 338 Win, 338-06, 35 Whelen, or such, I would opt for the .416. However, If I had one of the popular 7mm mags, .30 mags or 30-06 class rifle, I would get the 375 H&H. Either choice will allow you to hunt the globe, especially with todays bullet technology.

Pro Hunter,

Great post, and no name calling!

Rossi,
I have used a 500 Jeffery Improved to take elk at ranges of ~ 250 yards. With practice, which is a requirement for accurate shooting even with a 22 LR, one can master a stopper and use it well.

I believe if someone is willing the 450 Rigby is a much better choice for an all around rifle cartridge than is the 416 Rigby. In the final analysis it is up to the actual individual. Both the Rigby cartridges being discussed are hard kickers, there is no doubt about that. Both these cartridges will undoubtedly require some getting used to by someone used to shotguns and lever action rifles.

AC

I'm not so sure that the 450 Rigby is a truly practical alternative for Africa. In fact, it might as well be looked upon as a wildcat for all intents and purposes. I've been burned in this regard before, and all I can say is, obscure, weird cartridges and Africa don't work for me, and they never will.

At least with the 458 Lott you have the alternative of using more widely-avilable 458 Win. Mag. ammo in an emergency, and the Lott provides plenty of punch in its own right, if you can shoot it.

Based on what I've seen at our rifle club over the years, a lot of hunters who have done a great deal of shooting in practice, and who have hunted a lot over the years with 30-06s, 7mm magnums, etc., have trouble once recoil gets above 375 H&H. It's not just the 30-30 guys and 22LR casual plinkers who can't handle 416s and 458s, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Close only counts in horsehoes and handgrenades, and I think it's a whole lot smarter to a rifleman to be absolutely confident and precise with a 375 H&H or 416 Rem. or Rigby he can truly shoot, rather than a 450 Rigby, et al, that he's afraid of. Bullet-placement still counts for a great deal more than sheer horsepower.

AD

AC,

Where do you hunt elk? I ask because there is no way I would want to tote a 500 Jeffery Imp rifle up and down 3000-ft of elevation changes (7,500-11,000-ft) where I hunt. A 500 Jeffery rifle should posess at least 11.5 lbs in weight and would be better at 12.5 lbs or greater.

IMHO, this is not a practical caliber for elk hunting or even African plains game simply because of the rifle weight that must be carried. I have no problem with the bore size, but the power is not necessary and again not terribly practical. However, to each his own.

Allen,

I concur on the Lott. It will do anything with 350-500 grain bullets and the brass can be had or even made from a plethra of cases out there. The Rigby at this point is a novelty at best.

Allen,

I have found that most shooters that you described have equal trouble with the 416 or 458 bores, as both kick far far harder than their previous experience has conditioned. In other words, if they are going to learn to shoot a 416 they can just as easily learn to shoot a 458. I also concur that the 458 Lott is a far more practical choice than the 450 Rigby, Dakota, Weatherby mag. All I have said on this post has been that, if you are going to learn to shoot a big bore them shoot a big bore (0.458") and not a heavy medium (0.416"). The truth is both will require an equal amount of disciplne to learn to shoot proper as certainly neither is a 300 magnum in the recoil department.

Rossi,

I hunt elk where most others do. I really cannot tell the difference between a 9.5 lb 300 Win mag M70 or a 11.5 lb 500 Jeffery improved with regard to toting either around on the old shoulder sling.

I think this discussion has gone on far too long already, and long ago entered the realm of beating a dead horse.

AC

AC, I don't believe that most shooters can learn to shoot a 458 as well as they can a 416.

Now, if you don't think there's any discernable difference between carrying a 9.5 lb. 300 Win. Mag. (and that would be one HEAVY 300 Win. Mag.), and an 11.5 lb. 505 Gibbs -- plus heavy 505 Gibbs ammo -- then I'm convinced you haven't been up many elk mountains.

And why carry the Gibbs to begin with for elk? If it takes a 505 to satisfactorily handle an 800 lb. elk, what's it take for a 12,000 lb. Africa elephant? Why handicap yourself with that kind of howizter?

You sound like a guy that goes off the deep end on a lot of things.............

AD

Hey AC,

Is your real name Boomstick? You've been here since the 27th, and in a total of 11 posts have been able to demonstrate to everyone here that you are an arrogant ass. Congratulations! I would also like to know what your real name is, and why don't you post a few pictures while your at it?

I've been reading Jorges posts for many years, and have never found his comments to be rude or obnoxious, quite the contrary. You however seem to have a "special gift." You wouldn't happen to be about 5 feet tall, would you?

Why don't you register with a different user name and start over? Most of us are here to talk about hunting and guns. We don't need you to come along and lecture us about our shortcomings... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JBabcock,

No I am not "boomstick" whoever that may be.




That was not at all my intention, and I honestly do not believe that I was doing that at all. I was simply stating, to the original poster, what I thought would be his best investment in a heavy rifle cartridge. Just as a reminder, the original post dealt with which CZ550 to purchase a 416 Rigby or 450 Rigby. Personally, I would get the 505 Gibbs, but that is my own preference and not relavent to the orignal question posed. BTW, I an over six feet tall and 200+ lbs.

Allen,



Winchester M70 Supergrade = 8 lbs
Ziess scope and Leupold mounts = 1.3 pounds
Sling and ammo = 0.5 lbs

So actually 9.5 lbs is a bit under what the rifle REALLY weighs! The big 50 weighs 11.9 pounds with three in the magazine. So I think your statement is erroneous unless you are carrying a titanium ultralight without optics.

Finally, no I don't realize any discernible difference carrying either of these rifles on the shoulder sling, can do it all day. Now carrying them in my hands at the ready, the 300 is definitely the winner there.



Actually, I don't think most shooters can learn to shoot either of those calibers, when said calibers are generating more than 5000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, well! At least that has been my experience.

Everyone bored to death with this discussion yet?

AC

Actually, I'm not bored at all, I often times enjoy the steady downward spiral from the sublime to the ridiculous. Anyway, just waiting for you to reply to some of the questions posed here regarding your data and experience on the various calibers you mentioned using and your hunting experience. You say you've used a 505 Gibbs and only hunt with 50 cal and bigger yet on another thread you mentioned you used the 405 Win.

Like I alluded to in one of my previous posts, it takes just a little bit of time to acquire credibility around here, espcially when your posts started with the incredible notion that a 416 is really not much better than a 300 Winchester. jorge

Well said JorgeI!

Where have you hunted elk at, the YO ranch?

AD

Allen,



No I haven't. What is the YO ranch, a titty bar?

I believe that Mr Babcock must have been very honest in his last post, with regard to pionting out shortcomings. You and Jorge seem to be very defensive about my comments. Why is that sir?

Jorge,
The thing you will find really scary is that the 450 Marlin (or hot rodded 45-70) performs in an equivalent manner to your 416 Rigby/Remington/Weatherby within 100 yards or so. Granted the 416 will outpenetrate the 45-70, but in all but the most anal of circumstances (that would mean Texas heartshot) the extra penetration of the 416 is not necessary.

For your information the cartridges that I have personally hunted big game with, and from memory which means I will undoubted forget some are:
30-40 Krag
30-06
300 Weatherby
300 Win (preferred hunting cartridge over 300 yards)
405 Win
416 Rigby
458 Win
460 Weatherby
505 Gibbs (preferred hunting cartridge inside of 300 yards)
500 Jeffery Improved (preferred hunting cartridge inside of 300 yards)

I have witness kills with:
270 Win
30-30
308 Win
338 Win
375 H&H
375 JDJ
45-70 (loaded very hot)

Actually jorge, I prefer my 405 Win for a heavy medium as it is much more handy than the 416 Rigby. If I am going to carry a magnum mauser it might as well be a big 50. Inside 100 yards the 405 Winnie will do everything the 416 will (I don't like to use irons outside of 100 yards).

Are Allen and Jorge trolls? I am serious as these two gentlemen more than anyone else have just been spoiling for arguments and namecalling. When you press them they agree with everything I have said, albeit they cannot admit that the 416 is no better in the field than a 375, and they just cry about wanting to know my name, etc, etc, etc.

Seriously this has gone on long enough and I no longer want to play. So anyone who desires it may have the last word as I don't care.

Regards,
AC

Where was it again you hunted elk? Do you know what elk look like? The questions been posed several times. As a sage of such marvelous advice so far, surely you could supply us with some of the techniques you use. Especially the tip on how to cart a 12-lb rifle for days up and down the mountain side chasing elk. I'm guessing you must be from Norway or Sweden. Is your name Sven?

Well, at least it's obvious that AC isn't from Texas!!!

Personally, I think he's a poser/wannabe.
-Bob F.

Well it finally came out, now he says the 45/70 is the equal of the 416s as a DGR. Where have we heard that before gents. He'll be back I'm sure, so AC when you read this, I think you are a phony. And no I won't admit the 45/70 is just as effective as the 416 inside 100 yards. that's about as ridiculous as the rest of your posts. Prove me wrong. Flash, I see that i was right again, he is back, but posted a new thread asking questions that maybe he should answer himself as we asked them here and as yet he's not answered. jorge

It could be Boomstick!

Whew, I hope that is over with. Kinda like playing golf with a guy who has said (bragged?) in the club house how he always plays under 80 and you soon learn he meant 80 degrees, not his score.

I, laughingly now, took a guy elk hunting that I fished with a few times and learned all about the elk he'd shot in Montana as a boy and going to college. The stories sounded like he was another Meriwether Lewis. The first morning we walked out of camp together and that was the last I saw of him for 3 days !! My suspecions were raised the night before because in talking at dinner he'd talked about reloading his '06 ammo by filling the shell to the base of the shoulder with powder and then putting the bullet in. That was it !!!

As said, he was lost for three nights and on the morning of the fourth day Search and Rescue was mounting up at base camp.....we found him not a half mile from camp. Been there the whole time waiting to be found. Talk about screwing up a hunt. All he could talk about was what fun it was to just be out in the mountains alone and watch the birds and clouds go by.

So needless to say this guy was removed from my address book. If you want to talk the talk, you'd better have walked the walked else your true self will be found out by those around you.....in elk camp or here .

No, it doesn't appear as though he's from Texas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />......

Maybe the "AR" means he's from Aruba!

AC, if you think I'm a troll, all I can say is, I go by my own name, and I can furnish all the personal, printed, and video references you'd like to examine. Quite honestly, you appear to be more of a troll than anyone else on this thread. If you have nothing to hide, tell us your real name. How about it?

AD

Do you guys SERIOUSLY expect this phony to actually post his hunting experiences? How many times has he been asked now, here and on the other thread that he started where he asked about hunting experiences with buffalo yet he fails to mention his own when asked over and over? Hell, the best he can come up with is a picture of a cow elk that only heaven knows who shot it ( he claims he did on his first post, but then dances around it and says he gave it a coup de grace with his 500) and he expects us to believe he's actually been elk hunting let alone africa? This guy's ot better doublespeak BS than a clinton (Bill or hillary, take your pick). rick, I don't know if you've seen this guy's posts, but we are talking serious dementia here. Why don't you do like you said and get lost? jorge