Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .416 and .450 Rigby(CZ)

I see CZ has added the .450 Rigby to it's lineup,as well as a .505 Gibbs.I've been wanting a 550 in .416,and prefer the classic Rigby over the belted Remington.I have no info on the .450.How do they compare in bullet weight,velocity and recoi? Also,what is the general opinion of the CZ Safari rifle?Is the european style stock better for recoil control and quick shooting,or simply a matter of taste?Lastly,how does the .416 Rigby compare in recoil to,say, a .375H&H or a .404 Jeffrey.Ballistics seem quite adequate,with a 300gr for plains game and 400's for the heavies.Seems like a decent 1 gun battery,in a rifle affordable to those of use "finacially challanged".

IMO, weight of the rifle plays a major role in recoil. A straight stock keeps the 'push' going in the best direction to manage the effects of the explosion. By necessity the heavy weights use slow burning powder which creats the 'push' rather than the violence created by faster burning powder. High velocities are married to light weight bullets and most often light weight rifles. I've shot some light weight 458s that are terrible and others that are tolerable. My 500-450 double barrel rifle is horrible sitting down at the bench but standing up with a bipod is OK. The CZ Safari rifle gives you what your money buys, nothing more and nothing less. A Ruger is finished better and costs more so you have to decide what and how much you want to pay for the added quality. In the end for me, I've never shot an animal with a big bore and complained about recoil. Most barely hear the gun go off, including myself. Just my overall impression but I hope this helps. Bullet placement with accurate shooting really is more important than splitting hairs with recoil and velocity of different calibers.

I have a Ruger in 416 Ruger and it's an accurate, well-built but heavy rifle that I used in AFrica with great results. I did however had to do some minor tuning to it to get it DGR ready in my book. Nothing more than a pachmayer recoil pad to replace to rubber-hard stock Ruger, and I had the action polished and stoned as it tended to stick towards the end of the stroke. Total cost was less than 200 bucks but It was well worth it to ensure reliability. The CZs I've handled and shot are way rougher than the Rugers, needing in my view significant polishing of the action and feed rails. I also find the 25" barrel way too long for a large bore rifle.

As to the efficacy of both calibers, the 416 Rigby is more versatile and for you and me (read:client) there is anything out there that you can't handle, even angry, cahrging elephants and if that 250 yard shot at a kudu comes along, the Rigby's up to the task. The down side it that it does require a magnum length action and some feel that if a long action is required, might as well use a BIG bullet, like a 450 Rigby, 460 Weatherby, Dakota, etc. The 450 is most definetly a step up in recoil! And one more likely to be used by a professional to sort things out up close.

You mentioned the 416 Remington. Definetly a much more practical round for us hunters. It can be built in a lighter, trimmer action with the same punch of a Rigby. Don't believe the hysteria about high pressures and the Rem BTW, it operates at the same pressure as say, a 375 H&H. On the stock, I really don't care for the CZs traditional stock and prefer the American version better. BTW, almost ALL big bore CZ require significant bedding and added crossbolts to keep the stocks from splitting. If you buy one, be preapred to spend the money to get it "battle ready."

Since this is a forum of opinions I'll offer mine: IF you want a THUMPER, get the Ruger in 458 Lott. It's the equal of the 450 Rigby and ammo is WAY CHEAPER. SPend about 200 bucks on it and you have a real rifle. BUT if I had to do it all over again, I'd buy a Model 70 in 416 Rem and have it reworked by a competent smith who knows DGR. jorge

xxclaro,

Of the two cartridges you have mentioned (416 Rigby & 450 Rigby) I would opt for the 450 Rigby. Unlike what some have said it is just as practical as the smaller 416, afterall both cartridges have the same muzzle velocities and BC for all practical purposes so obtainable range is identical. The 450 Rigby is definitely a step up in "killing power" over the 416, which is actually little better than the 375 H&H, which is very little better than a 300 Winnie. The recoil differential between the 416 and 450 also will be hardly noticable.

Just some insight from someone who has used both calibers in the field (my experience with these calibers is with the 416 Rigby (not an impressive killer by any means), 458 Winnie, and 460 Weatherby). Believe me when I say that there was/is a very good reason that very few 416 Rigby rifles were ever produced before the Ruger M77 RSM in the late 80's (there are much better options for roughly equivalent recoil).

Having said all that, if I were going to buy a new CZ550, I would get the 505 Gibbs, which is vastly superior (in "killing power") to either of the cartridges you have selected to discuss.

AC

[quote]xxclaro,

over the 416, which is actually little better than the 375 H&H, which is very little better than a 300 Winnie. The recoil differential between the 416 and 450 also will be hardly noticable.

(my experience with these calibers is with the 416 Rigby (not an impressive killer by any means),

Well I guess I couldn't disagree more with the statements above. To say there is little difference in killing power between the 416 and 375 is just not true, and in spades fro the 375 /300 comparison. Same goes for the difference in recoil between the two. The 416 earned and continues to enjoy an excellent reputation in africa as a DGR caliber. But don't take my word for it, pick up just about any book on the subject by notable authors like Sanchez-Arino, Boddington, Ruark, Broom, the list is endless and they all have nothing but the highest praise for the 416 and the 375. It's posts like the preceeding one that often makes me wonder why I even bother. jorge

I have a CZ in 416 Rigby & love the caliber & rifle. Mine required some tuneing, but most rifles do. My PH has a great deal of confidence in the CZ & the 416. Refer to the articles in Rifle Mag. by John Barness on his CZ. If its good enough for John its good enough for me. The buffalo I shot with mine was dead on his feet with the first shot but, I put the second in for insurance. Topped with a 1.5x4 Swarovski what more could I want. Good Hunting.

jorge,

The big difference between you and me is that I base my comments off of FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE IN THE FIELD WITH THESE CARTRIDGES while you sit in your arm chair and read books.

I strongly recommend that we leave this discussion at this point.

AC

New and Obnoxious, what a treat for all of us. Just a hint AC of Whatever, this isn't a forum where your "strong suggestion" is going to get you very far. Sheesh.

My 416 is significantly more gun than my 300 Weatherby in the fields I walk through.

As far as the original question goes, the two Rigbys differ by 100 grains of bullet weight and .042 in bullet diameter. Recoil increases in a linear fashion because velocities are similar.

The best information available seems to point to the conclusion that 416's are the best modern choice unless you simply want the added power of a good 45 and can tolarate the recoil. The 45's will put the largest game down with more authority, and big hippos and rhinos need often need the extra persuassion but Elephants and Nyati really dont.

The 416 caliber has the Nosler partition available which has the highest (note: not BEST) B.C. of any .458 or .416 caliber bullet. Thus with that bullet 416's shoot flatter.

The 416 safely can be loaded with data approaching the 416 Weatherby, because the case capacity is the same and the Weatherby pressures are not all that hot, the 416 Rigby is loaded to around 40,000 CUP, but there is no data for hot rodding the 450.

Brass is expensive for the Rigby's, but you only need about a hundred of them for the amount of shooting you will do. Again 417 brass is available from more sources, but you only need to find one anyway.

The CZ is a perfectly acceptable rifle. The Ruger is a perfectly acceptable rifle. The Remington is a perfectly acceptable rifle.

Those trim 416 Remingtons weight less, so they kick more. The CZ is a good gun for shooting a lot, because it has mass to dampen the recoil forces and because it makes an expensive hobby activity less expensive. The Ruger looks twice as nice and costs twice as much.

Put a few hundred rounds through your rifle before you have any work done on it. Familiarity and use make any rifle better, and any work done relevent to your gun and its relationship to you.

I have a ball with my CZ 416. People love shooting it, my kids love talking about our "Elephant" rifle, I like getting familiar with the power and recoil of this class of rifle, you will too.

I personally consider my CZ 416Rigby to be one of the finest all around Africa and Alaska rifles around. Mine is off at the gunsmiths shop being fitted for a model 70 style safety and a non 'set' trigger that is simple and rugged, but I use mine a lot more than most people and abuse it more as well. I have found it to absolutely thump the biggest of the big with quite impressive authority. When I get a bit more computer literate I will post footage from 2004 of me putting a bull elephant on the ground 'right now' with a shoulder shot from my .416 Rigby. I like the Big Rugers, but feel that the safety, when at its rearmost position, is too hard to feel and flip quickly. With a safety that stuck out a bit more it would be pretty close to ideal. My CZ 416 started out in life and went hunting quite a bit with the original euro or lux style stock. When CZ came out with the straight or american style stock I ordered one from them and I personally find it more comfortable and a darned sight more attractive than the original stock. (available to anyone who wants it!) The bolt is nice and smooth on mine, but I have used it a lot including in dusty conditions which I am sure smoothed it out naturally. I have not found the 25 inch barrel to be unweildy. Even in the Alder Thickets of Alaska. I consider it a plus, but that is just me.

I recently watched a video named "Death by the Double Barrel". At close range a cape buffalo took 5, yes 5 shots before going down for good. Both rifles were double 470. After the cape took 5000 # of energy from the first shot in the chest, he casually turned the other direction and got hammered again from the PWH. Still standing on his fee he took three more shots, one hitting him on the nose and going deep into his chest, the other two shots I don't know where they went. He had 15 K# of energy delivered to his body and finally down he went. He was still alive so another shot was put into his spine between the shoulders. With all this punishmehnt the buffalo had traveled half the distance to get to his killers.

On the other hand I shot two capes one right after another and they ran off into the tall grass. My PWh dropped two cows for the natives to feast on and he dropped the cape bullalos in their tracks with a neck shot using a bolt action 416. We left some natives over night to build a fire and protect the visible cape buffallos . In the morning we found the two I had shot through the lungs 50 yards away in tall grass. I had shot from about 50 yards away and upon examination the bullets had not made two holes. The 300 grain Winchester silvertips went to pieces and we never found them.

The term "significant experience" is a subjective one. Since I can only feel comfortable saying that I possess that only in my profession, I'll not dare to comment on my "modest" hunting experience. On the reading book issue I just offer this;

When I first learned to read and write, I learned from: books
When I first started to hunt I learned from: books
When I went to flight school in the Navy I first learned from: books

Books and reading are the foundation by which most of us anyway first gain ineterest on a subject and a modicum of knowledge. Then as we gain profficiency, we build on experience. Saying that books have no value is like, well saying the 416 Rigby has little advantage over the 300 Magnum and in my modest experience that is simply not the case. jorge

Well, I guess I should say I am sorry to all of you who I upset by saying that your little 416 isn't all that impressive. Frankly gentlemen it isn't. If you were trained in forensics you would have noticed that the trauma generated by the 416 is only about 25% to 50% greater than that generated by a 300 and there is no statistically significant difference between the 416 and the 375 (although I would think that there is a little bit).

Regarding the comments "animals hitting the ground now" when shot with the 416 and not other cartridges. I have seen white tails with a double lung shot shrug off a 416 Rigby, loaded to Weatherby levels. The bullet simply pencilled through, a 30-30 was more effective.

I put all of you who have attacked my comments (lets be men now and not a bunch of politically correct wimps, shall we, you have attacked my comments) into the same category of the gentleman I am about to talk about.

This gentleman I know sees an elk shot 4 times through the lungs with a 30-06. Later the same trip he shoots his elk with a 300 WSM and spines it. His elk drops at the shot (Central Nervous System hits have that effect, strange no?). Well he gets back from Colorado and imforms everyone of how much better an elk cartridge the 300 WSM is than the 30-06 based off of what he saw on that trip. Most of the coworkers (like you gentlemen seem to be) agreed with this gentleman that the 300 WSM was better. Another old gentleman that I know exceedingly well, took his elk with one shot at 160 yards with a 308 Win (my rifle I loaned him) he too spine shot the elk as has been his practice for 45 years. Actually this old geezer thought my 308 loaner was a bit too much gun, afterall he usually used a Hoyt recurve, but if he wanted a rifle he used a M94 30-30.

So now the first gentleman upon hearing this had to decide if the 300 WSM was really better than the 3006 or not. He decided, along with many others I might add, that since military snipers use the 308 and the 300 Win mag (remember the 300 WSM is the ballistics equivalent of the 300 Win mag) that the 308 and the 300 WSM are equal till 800 yards when the 300 WSM takes the lead. Both cartridges are better than the 30-06, ballistically, and that is why the military stopped using the 3006. He and his supporters have provided substantial evidence (something like 7 or 8 books about military snipers) proving this point. I find this entire episode pathetic. Very much like the comments directed against me on this thread.

So jorge, books definitely are instruments of learning, but just because it is written in a book doesn't mean that it is. You should never question the reality of what has actually happened in the field over what someone wrote in a romantic fairy tell anyway (which is what many of the Africa hunting books are if you honestly appraise them).

I haven't been obnoxious either, believe me when I say that. I spoke from first hand experience with the calibers in question. I do not hunt any longer with these calibers as I hunt with 50 caliber or larger now. Size does matter if you want to believe that or not.

Having said all that perhaps I am not welcome at this site (seeing how bent some of you have gotten over nothing some of you have even attacked me, then talked in a circle and came back to the same recommendation I did, sad) and should cease posting here.

AC

[quote]Well, I guess I should say I am sorry to all of you who I upset by saying that your little 416 isn't all that impressive. Frankly gentlemen it isn't. If you were trained in forensics you would have noticed that the trauma generated by the 416 is only about 25% to 50% greater than that generated by a 300 and there is no statistically significant difference between the 416 and the 375 (although I would think that there is a little bit).

Trauma? What is your source for that data? 25 to 50% difference is statistically HUGE and frankly incredible. How about penetration which is central to hunting dangerous game? As to your politicallly correct commentary and "wimps" issue, correctness has nothing to do with it. It's called being polite to a new poster and like all new posters, it takes a while for your credibility (or lack thereof) to build. Since we are not being politically correct here, your comments so far indicate quite the opposite of experience, as ANY hunter with any kind of practical african experience would seriously question your statement of comparing a 300 to a 416 or even a 375. jorge

If my memory is correct, the 450 Rigby is a 416 Rigby case necked up to 458 caliber and can launch a 500 grain bullet at 2400+fps. Standard loading for the 416 Rigby is 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps. Obviously, if you reload you have more flexibility in terms of bullet weight and velocity. If I were to pick either one of these cartridges I would reload!

Recoil of 416, at standard velocity and bullet wt. (400 gr. bullet at 2400fps), will be (my opinion) significantly less than a 500 grain bullet at 2300+/- fps, if you load a 450 Rigby to 2400 fps you will feel it even more...A 375 H&H is "moderate" recoil, a 416 starts to get my attention and loading 400 grain bullets to say 2500 fps or 500 grain bullets at 2150+ fps, will get my attention.

As to the CZ rifles, well since I have them in 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, and 458 Lott I must like them. Mine are American stocked versions. As noted to make them DG ready you should have them worked on...and with the 416 and 458's cross bolt and bed them...If I were you I would check out the CZ (both stocked versions), the Ruger, Winchester, etc and see what works/fits you the best and go from there.

If you want a rifle/caliber combination that will work for Plains Game and some DG, if it were me, I would go with either the 375 H&H, 416 Rigby or Remington...pick one bullet weight/loading and shoot until you are very proficient with it....any of those three should work well at standard velocity loading with well constructed bullets.

To me the 458's and above, 500+grain bullets at 2150+fps, are specialized "stopping rifles". They have there place and my preference for DG is the 458 Lott or my 470 Nitro...but I always take a backup DG/Plains Game rifle with me and it is most likely going to be a 375H&H or a 416. I see someone suggested a 505 Gibbs, for your application PG/DG rifle, thats not a very logical choice at all!

I think I read here that someone suggested/stated a 300 mag was comparable, in some way, to a 375 H&H on game...could well be so on thin skinned game...but to suggest the same against DG is just plain silly!

I have never shot or handled a 450 Rigby but would consider it a hammer! on both ends, if you are looking for a hammer I would look hard a the 458 Lott a bit more pratical in terms of factory ammo and brass for reloading....I load to a nominal 2300 fps and works just fine on Buff!

Good luck on your choice!

my friend took a 505 after moose in Montana for the heck of it. what does logic have to do with anything? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

i would say the 416 is as big as your going to need and find the rifle that fits you best/feels most natural going to you shoulder and go from there.

JJS,



Why is this not logical? I dare say it is the most sensible and practical choice of all. The 505 Gibbs is more than adequate for any game from field mice to elephant!! Having hunted with one I know.

AC

why is it not logical? most cant handle its recoil thats why. will it work for everything from mice to elephant but so will the 375's 416's and 458's and a host of others. what it comes down to is what can the individual shoot accuratly and not flinch with.

I have found that the 416 Rem. Mag. hammers stuff significantly harder than does the 375 H&H, and I haven't exactly been sitting around dreaming up theories or jumping to conclusions after gleaning info out of hunting mags or comic books, either, and just about every PH I've ever visited with over the years is in agreement that the 416s offer demonstrably more punch that the 375 H&H.

There's no question that the big .450s and .500s are bigger hammers than the various .416s, but lots of guys, self-included simply can't shoot those cartridges as well as the .416s, not to mention the fact that many of those rounds are housed in bigger, heavier, more ungainly rifles that not only slow me down, but are a pain in the rectum to carry all day long in the bush.

Like everything else, rifle-selection involves a series of trade-offs.............

AD

I shoot prairie dogs with a .375 H&H. Not logical either but a whole lot of fun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AC,
Please don't take this as a personal attack because it is not in any way. I have been around these forums for a while and have seen jorge has the experience and horse power to back up what he says. He does not get his experience just from books.

Best Wishes

Are they full -size mounts, pedestal, etc? The mice, I mean.

Was just reading all the grammatical errors in my last post. And the faulty arithmatic with energy hitting the buffs. I'm lost without spell checker so you can see what side of my brain I use most often. ANYWAY, I'm new around here and hope to post a picture soon. Have gotten to know safariman behind scenes as I'm from a family of big game hunters....hence the connection. But mostly I'm a sportsman first and just because I've done this or that doesn't give me the right to tell anybody what the truth is. Each of us has an opinion and that's all it is. It's not the truth for everyone !! Why sling arrows just because you're of a different mind set ? However, if arrows continue being thrown then the instigator is not a sportsman as he is not considerate of others. But lets not forget we have a right to defend ourselves from the onslaughts.

Howard Bell killed thousands of elephants with a 7 mm Mauser fmj. I wonder what he'd have to say about this 'stuff' regarding calibers. Certainly he would have had the common sence to use a bigger caliber but that little 7mm was all he had and he made it work. As has been said, it is shooting accurately in the right place that makes the difference. BUT there is a minimum caliber allowed on the dangerous game and as most of you know, it's the 375. IMO, it should be the minimum caliber on a lot more plains game as well. Bullet construction has vastly improved over the recent past and this makes a huge difference in acceptable calibers for the larger game. So the 30 calibers are going to do a lot better job than they used to.

AC

As you can well see from my advertisements etc. I too have a bit of in the field experience. Please enjoy the forum, consider yourself welcome and enjoy the conversations and bantering about. I did find it in poor taste to assume that jorge has a less valid opinion than yours, for whatever reasons. I am sure that you will find it best to state your opinion, back it up with whatever facts or experiences you deem appropriate and leave it at that. This is a very freindly chatroom / website which is why I post often, advertise here and rarely visit the other sites anymore. With your obviously tremendous amount of experience in Africa I am looking forward to hearing more from you and having some interesting and engaging conversations, maybe even gentlemanly debates! Best wishes and a warm welcome from......

Safariman

PS Are you going to SCI next month?

Thanks for all the replies,guys.Response was better than expected,and all posts are appreciatted.Just to be clear,I'm not ruling out the .375 H&H due to lack of power,as I feel it's success is well documented and speaks for itself,especially with todays bullets.The Rigby catches my eye because it's different, a little less commmon.For example, right now most of my shooting and hunting is done with a .307,.356, .375 Win, and a .444, all Winchester Big Bore leverguns.The Rem 700 in 270 Winchester only comes out when the range is going to be long or the hunting really rough.Just recieved a Boyds laminate for it from my wife, and immediatly bedded it and finished it.Looks good!I know the .375 is just as old,and very capable,but same could be said for 30-30 and deer.I really appreciatte all the insight,especially when it comes from those who have the experience and knowledge to know why they believe what they believe.Africa is still over the horizon somewhere,but I'd like to have plenty of experience with a heavy rifle before that day comes.I worry a bit about recoil,especially with a scope.Will a 2.5 straight power Weaver give adequate eye relief?I'm not a big guy,about 5'10,170lbs,but I find offhand most calibre's don't cause too much problem.Of course,the hardest thumpers I've shot are some handloaded 350gr 45-70 out of a ported 18.5 Marlin GG,12 guage 3" slugs out of a light single shot, and my .444.No real problems so far,and I feel like I'm getting better at handling recoil.Unfortunatly,no one I know has even a .375 H&H so I can't do a test run.I do load all my own ammo though,so maybe I can start light and work my way up.By the way,can I install crossbolts myself?Thanks again,one and all.

My dog wasn't in the debate (fight?), just a spectator reading the growls that were coming from what sounded like a lion's den. Guess that since Teddy Roosevelt is my mentor...speak softly and carry a big stick....and this is a sportsman den or at least the new guys, myself included, should show some respect to people they don't know, I thank you for the warm welcome. The recent pictures are a family treasure and fantastic. Photos are very clear...wonder what kind of a camera was used ??

AC of AR:

I just plain forgot the 505 Gibbs being the all-around rifle! How many Mice have you taken with yours?

xxcarlo, biggest rifle i own at the moment is a 45/70 in a guide gun. i have no experiance with the big bores other than i read everything i get my hands on. i have one heck of a fasination with the 416 bore and hope to have a 416 Taylor put together soon. you say you hand load and africa is still aways away. i say get which ever interests you the most and go from there, get familiar with your rifle. any 458 is a handloaders dream as if you include cast, there are hundreds of bullets out there. like i said my fasination is with the 416 so im a bit partial to the rigby myself

xxclaro,
Either of the cartridges you asked about will kick considerably harder than the lever guns you mentioned or the 12 ga. However, the felt recoil may be less depending greatly upon fitment of the rifle to yourself. Both the 416 and the 450 Rigby cartridges will produce significant amounts of recoil. You will almost certainly have to condition yourself to this level of recoil in order to be proficient with either cartridge. You are familiar with the old english statement about the stiff upper lip, I assume.

JJS,
I really do not understand your irrational behaviour. If one desires to become proficient with a true big bore (meaning 0.458" bore or larger) then they might as well do so with one of the biggest (and best). Size does matter, with regard to how quickly an animal can be incapacitated with a non-central nervous system hit.

I have taken no mice with a 505 Gibbs, but have taken a few buffalo. By the way, I no longer have a Gibbs, but that may change again someday.

safariman,
I find that this forum is like most others on the net. There are many who claim to be knowledgeable/experienced hunters who seem to be the only individuals I have ever met/heard of having the experiences they speak of (although some of these mythologies they speak of seem to show up in magazines and books). Many get very upset when you tell them that a 155mm howitzer will kick a 270 Win's arse (simple fact and yes it is an exaggeration). The 416 isn't a very good killer and that is why is was never very popular until Ruger introduced it in their M77 RSM and the babyboomers began going on their dream hunts to Africa. I found your sarastism refreshing, by the way. I often find myself wondering why I post on these forums anyway.

AC

Where's Phil Shoemaker when you need him?

AC, would you post your real name, so we can measure your largess and legend against the backdrop of humanity?

i really fail to see how a .416 diameter 400 grain bullet of good construction at 2400 fps can be called anything but a "good killer"

as far as being popular and having a track record the 505 has lil history as very few rifles have ever been chambered in it. plus recommending it as a persons first real african DGR seems just plain idiotic to me. a 570-600 grain bullet at 2000-2200fps is going to be an interesting experiance to say the least. i dont doubt the "killing power" of the Gibbs one bit but in this case it seems excessive in the extream unless the person is dieing to have one. a 375, 416 or 458 makes more sence.

guess that scared him off!

quote: I find that this forum is like most others on the net. There are many who claim to be knowledgeable/experienced hunters who seem to be the only individuals I have ever met/heard of having the experiences they speak of .
----------------------------------
And anybody that says the 416 is not a good killer (or that is not much better than a 300 Win Mag for chrissake), in spite of REAMS of verifiable data to the contrary as in PHs like Broom, Sanchez-Arino, and other individuals with proven track records, seems to fit the above quote to a tee, not to mention none of the questions posed to our new "sage" have been answered.

Incidentally, the real reason for the scarcity of the 416 Rigby prior to Ruger's re-introduction is simple. The 416 Rigby, like Holland & Holland's 500/465to name another example were proprietary cartridges that the makers refused to release the patent. Today, we no longer have that constraint, hence the popularity of the 416s which are being built by just about everybody. IF it didn't work, market forces would drive hunters elsewhere. AC if you personally have had bad experiences with the 416, why don't you come out with some specifics, but I have to tell you your initial posts here and questionable data are pretty unbelievable. Maybe you're right, you shouldn't bother. jorge

David,



Were you talking to me? I was under the impression that Mr Shoemaker never loaded is 505 up to factory spec (I recall reading 2000 to 2100 fps or so with a 525 gr pill, and I think I read that from one of his own posts, but my memory ain't so good anymore). I also recall that he had a hard time getting it to penetrate more than 18" or so. I have had it go clear through buffalo from front to rear. I also believe Mr Shoemaker is a big fan of the 458 Win mag. Again, I very likely could be mistaken. It would be great if Mr Shoemaker did chime in.

Jorge,

Since you have no first hand experience with anything larger than the 416 you have no way of knowing what you are talking about, with any degree of certainty. Simply put you are not qualified to state anything of an authoritative nature on this subject. Furthermore, the 416 Rigby was basically long dead and buried until Ruger resurrected it in the late 80's.

Might I suggest we simply stop this pointless and aimless arguing and simply agree to disagree.

AC

I don't fond it illogical. Till I quit buying more guns for me and $8000 hot tubs for my dearly beloved ( who thinks I'm an obsessed a**hole for all The guns I buy) and get to go serious DG hunting my 416 Rigby will be used mostly for barricaded rockchuck hostage rescue work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
( anyone else think this thread is starting to sound like blind guys describing elephants??)
( yeah , I'm back)

AC, still afraid to post your real name and credentials?

No name = no quals.

lol my 45-70 and 44 mags get used for the same purpose <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

AC: You must be either psychic or a woman in order to determine what my experience is. Be that as it may, there are others who've posted here with significant experience ( we are all still waiting for you to tell us yours) with 416s and 45s that concur of the efficacy of the 416s. Further, I've personally experienced how a 416 performs with a buffalo and a 375 and the difference is notable. I've said from the very start (as have others) that the 45s hammer buffalo with greater authority than the 416s, but by the same token the same folks agree the 416 is ideal for buffalo. IF the 416 was dead and buried like you say, then the 505, 450 Rigby and basically all other British big bores with the exception of the 470 were deader than dead before the recent resurgence.

There's nothing to disagree on. The 45 are more effective than the 416s and you are dead wrong that the 416 is only slightly better than a 300 or a 375. So we're still waiting for you to tell us about your specific bad experiences with the 416. jorge

Well, I think AC is just like my old physics professor. Been teaching for 25 years and has one year of experience. It's either right or wrong and by God, you better listen. Is this a power trip or what ??? A 416 isn't any good at taking down game because a white tail ran off. GO FIGURE THAT ONE OUT ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

We call that 25 one-year experiences, vs twenty five years of experience.

The first and last posts here may be the only ones with any reason, a question and a suitable answer. As this has degraded into a contest of who the better man is I will gladly weight in and stur the pot. I have used a .375 forever it seems so that has always been my critrea i.e. is it better than a .375 ??? Also I use a 165/.30'06 alot, so when I judge a light rifle is it better than that ???
Having said this and again saying I am very pragmatic in what I use, I have used other guns including 416's (taylor, rigby, remington) a 404, 458win (alot), 458 Lott (yuk) 460wby(yuk2), 500 jeff. The 416's where used during the time leading up to the 416 craze hit the U.S. market. The worked well, very well indeed. Better than my old battered .375, No.
I heard of a remington loosing a bolt handle during recoil, I had Taylor ammo confiscated because of headstamp, I had the Rigby run dry twice in the heat of battle. The rem was a 700 that INDEED had pressure problems with the early ammo, didn't feed and kicked like being struck by a automobile. The Taylor is a Blaser Ultimate, no more comment needed. The Rigby was a Dumulin and was okay for a 1000.00 rifle but it cost 4500.00. As said the "caliber" seemed to work out well, the guns where no friends of mine in the end. The 458 seemed to kill way better than the .375 and .416. The little I used the 500 , That thing is unreal. Truly a 1 shot rifle. Reciol is horrid for practice but boy does it kill. If my curcumstance dictated that I needed and Elephant stopper it would be a bolt action 50.

All in all the fellow is asking us to decide between a 416 or 450 ???

I don't and probably wouldn't (after sending my .458 to my brother) own another .40, .411, .416, .425, .45 caliber rifle. Realy no benefit over a .375 and the .50 is soooooo....much better.

ProHunter, good reply.

The .416s are every bit as versatile in the field as the .375s, the only real difference is in the recoil when using the heavier bullet weights. The Remington and Rigby shoot seriously flat with 325 grain bullets and pack a real wallop at 250 yards. 300 yard gunning is well within the capability of a good marksmen with the .416s (Weatherby easily eclipsing that). The real question in handling the .416s over the 375 H&H is accuracy. The more recoil the less accurate one becomes. The 416s produce a typical 56 ft-lbs of free recoil energy (Wby excluded) as compared to roughly 39-42 ft-lbs in the 375 H&H.

Stepping to a .458 class with 500 grain bullets you will take roughly 65 ft-lbs of free recoil starting with the 458 Win and work into the 70 ft-lbs range with max Lott loads. The 450 Rigby shooting its factory loaded 465 grain bullet at 2400 will produce roughly the same. Big difference with these levels of recoil is reduced accuracy. The reason for the use of such a cartridge is not for hunting per say, instead it is a preferred essential for the PH who simply does not take chances. The .458s will flatten game at point blank as intended. Thats not to say they don't have long range capability. Even the 458 Winchester, which gets a great deal of bad press at times, shoots plenty flat with a Barnes 400 XFB. Lord knows its laid to rest a significant number of elephant, buffalo, and hippo and is now going on 50 years.

The .50s are surely killers and the bolt versions such as the 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffery are more potent than the great 500 Nitro Express. As such, the recoil in most weighted rifles is in the 85+ ft-lbs range. I certainly would not classify them as versatile or mainstream. They are stopper rifles and very specialized, offering the highest probability to ending a conflict.

If you are going to hunt, I would choose a 375 H&H or 416 Rem or Rigby. I would base it on my present battery. If I had a 338 Win, 338-06, 35 Whelen, or such, I would opt for the .416. However, If I had one of the popular 7mm mags, .30 mags or 30-06 class rifle, I would get the 375 H&H. Either choice will allow you to hunt the globe, especially with todays bullet technology.

Pro Hunter,

Great post, and no name calling!

Rossi,
I have used a 500 Jeffery Improved to take elk at ranges of ~ 250 yards. With practice, which is a requirement for accurate shooting even with a 22 LR, one can master a stopper and use it well.

I believe if someone is willing the 450 Rigby is a much better choice for an all around rifle cartridge than is the 416 Rigby. In the final analysis it is up to the actual individual. Both the Rigby cartridges being discussed are hard kickers, there is no doubt about that. Both these cartridges will undoubtedly require some getting used to by someone used to shotguns and lever action rifles.

AC

I'm not so sure that the 450 Rigby is a truly practical alternative for Africa. In fact, it might as well be looked upon as a wildcat for all intents and purposes. I've been burned in this regard before, and all I can say is, obscure, weird cartridges and Africa don't work for me, and they never will.

At least with the 458 Lott you have the alternative of using more widely-avilable 458 Win. Mag. ammo in an emergency, and the Lott provides plenty of punch in its own right, if you can shoot it.

Based on what I've seen at our rifle club over the years, a lot of hunters who have done a great deal of shooting in practice, and who have hunted a lot over the years with 30-06s, 7mm magnums, etc., have trouble once recoil gets above 375 H&H. It's not just the 30-30 guys and 22LR casual plinkers who can't handle 416s and 458s, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Close only counts in horsehoes and handgrenades, and I think it's a whole lot smarter to a rifleman to be absolutely confident and precise with a 375 H&H or 416 Rem. or Rigby he can truly shoot, rather than a 450 Rigby, et al, that he's afraid of. Bullet-placement still counts for a great deal more than sheer horsepower.

AD

AC,

Where do you hunt elk? I ask because there is no way I would want to tote a 500 Jeffery Imp rifle up and down 3000-ft of elevation changes (7,500-11,000-ft) where I hunt. A 500 Jeffery rifle should posess at least 11.5 lbs in weight and would be better at 12.5 lbs or greater.

IMHO, this is not a practical caliber for elk hunting or even African plains game simply because of the rifle weight that must be carried. I have no problem with the bore size, but the power is not necessary and again not terribly practical. However, to each his own.

Allen,

I concur on the Lott. It will do anything with 350-500 grain bullets and the brass can be had or even made from a plethra of cases out there. The Rigby at this point is a novelty at best.

Allen,

I have found that most shooters that you described have equal trouble with the 416 or 458 bores, as both kick far far harder than their previous experience has conditioned. In other words, if they are going to learn to shoot a 416 they can just as easily learn to shoot a 458. I also concur that the 458 Lott is a far more practical choice than the 450 Rigby, Dakota, Weatherby mag. All I have said on this post has been that, if you are going to learn to shoot a big bore them shoot a big bore (0.458") and not a heavy medium (0.416"). The truth is both will require an equal amount of disciplne to learn to shoot proper as certainly neither is a 300 magnum in the recoil department.

Rossi,

I hunt elk where most others do. I really cannot tell the difference between a 9.5 lb 300 Win mag M70 or a 11.5 lb 500 Jeffery improved with regard to toting either around on the old shoulder sling.

I think this discussion has gone on far too long already, and long ago entered the realm of beating a dead horse.

AC

AC, I don't believe that most shooters can learn to shoot a 458 as well as they can a 416.

Now, if you don't think there's any discernable difference between carrying a 9.5 lb. 300 Win. Mag. (and that would be one HEAVY 300 Win. Mag.), and an 11.5 lb. 505 Gibbs -- plus heavy 505 Gibbs ammo -- then I'm convinced you haven't been up many elk mountains.

And why carry the Gibbs to begin with for elk? If it takes a 505 to satisfactorily handle an 800 lb. elk, what's it take for a 12,000 lb. Africa elephant? Why handicap yourself with that kind of howizter?

You sound like a guy that goes off the deep end on a lot of things.............

AD

Hey AC,

Is your real name Boomstick? You've been here since the 27th, and in a total of 11 posts have been able to demonstrate to everyone here that you are an arrogant ass. Congratulations! I would also like to know what your real name is, and why don't you post a few pictures while your at it?

I've been reading Jorges posts for many years, and have never found his comments to be rude or obnoxious, quite the contrary. You however seem to have a "special gift." You wouldn't happen to be about 5 feet tall, would you?

Why don't you register with a different user name and start over? Most of us are here to talk about hunting and guns. We don't need you to come along and lecture us about our shortcomings... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JBabcock,

No I am not "boomstick" whoever that may be.




That was not at all my intention, and I honestly do not believe that I was doing that at all. I was simply stating, to the original poster, what I thought would be his best investment in a heavy rifle cartridge. Just as a reminder, the original post dealt with which CZ550 to purchase a 416 Rigby or 450 Rigby. Personally, I would get the 505 Gibbs, but that is my own preference and not relavent to the orignal question posed. BTW, I an over six feet tall and 200+ lbs.

Allen,



Winchester M70 Supergrade = 8 lbs
Ziess scope and Leupold mounts = 1.3 pounds
Sling and ammo = 0.5 lbs

So actually 9.5 lbs is a bit under what the rifle REALLY weighs! The big 50 weighs 11.9 pounds with three in the magazine. So I think your statement is erroneous unless you are carrying a titanium ultralight without optics.

Finally, no I don't realize any discernible difference carrying either of these rifles on the shoulder sling, can do it all day. Now carrying them in my hands at the ready, the 300 is definitely the winner there.



Actually, I don't think most shooters can learn to shoot either of those calibers, when said calibers are generating more than 5000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, well! At least that has been my experience.

Everyone bored to death with this discussion yet?

AC

Actually, I'm not bored at all, I often times enjoy the steady downward spiral from the sublime to the ridiculous. Anyway, just waiting for you to reply to some of the questions posed here regarding your data and experience on the various calibers you mentioned using and your hunting experience. You say you've used a 505 Gibbs and only hunt with 50 cal and bigger yet on another thread you mentioned you used the 405 Win.

Like I alluded to in one of my previous posts, it takes just a little bit of time to acquire credibility around here, espcially when your posts started with the incredible notion that a 416 is really not much better than a 300 Winchester. jorge

Well said JorgeI!

Where have you hunted elk at, the YO ranch?

AD

Allen,



No I haven't. What is the YO ranch, a titty bar?

I believe that Mr Babcock must have been very honest in his last post, with regard to pionting out shortcomings. You and Jorge seem to be very defensive about my comments. Why is that sir?

Jorge,
The thing you will find really scary is that the 450 Marlin (or hot rodded 45-70) performs in an equivalent manner to your 416 Rigby/Remington/Weatherby within 100 yards or so. Granted the 416 will outpenetrate the 45-70, but in all but the most anal of circumstances (that would mean Texas heartshot) the extra penetration of the 416 is not necessary.

For your information the cartridges that I have personally hunted big game with, and from memory which means I will undoubted forget some are:
30-40 Krag
30-06
300 Weatherby
300 Win (preferred hunting cartridge over 300 yards)
405 Win
416 Rigby
458 Win
460 Weatherby
505 Gibbs (preferred hunting cartridge inside of 300 yards)
500 Jeffery Improved (preferred hunting cartridge inside of 300 yards)

I have witness kills with:
270 Win
30-30
308 Win
338 Win
375 H&H
375 JDJ
45-70 (loaded very hot)

Actually jorge, I prefer my 405 Win for a heavy medium as it is much more handy than the 416 Rigby. If I am going to carry a magnum mauser it might as well be a big 50. Inside 100 yards the 405 Winnie will do everything the 416 will (I don't like to use irons outside of 100 yards).

Are Allen and Jorge trolls? I am serious as these two gentlemen more than anyone else have just been spoiling for arguments and namecalling. When you press them they agree with everything I have said, albeit they cannot admit that the 416 is no better in the field than a 375, and they just cry about wanting to know my name, etc, etc, etc.

Seriously this has gone on long enough and I no longer want to play. So anyone who desires it may have the last word as I don't care.

Regards,
AC

Where was it again you hunted elk? Do you know what elk look like? The questions been posed several times. As a sage of such marvelous advice so far, surely you could supply us with some of the techniques you use. Especially the tip on how to cart a 12-lb rifle for days up and down the mountain side chasing elk. I'm guessing you must be from Norway or Sweden. Is your name Sven?

Well, at least it's obvious that AC isn't from Texas!!!

Personally, I think he's a poser/wannabe.
-Bob F.

Well it finally came out, now he says the 45/70 is the equal of the 416s as a DGR. Where have we heard that before gents. He'll be back I'm sure, so AC when you read this, I think you are a phony. And no I won't admit the 45/70 is just as effective as the 416 inside 100 yards. that's about as ridiculous as the rest of your posts. Prove me wrong. Flash, I see that i was right again, he is back, but posted a new thread asking questions that maybe he should answer himself as we asked them here and as yet he's not answered. jorge

It could be Boomstick!

Whew, I hope that is over with. Kinda like playing golf with a guy who has said (bragged?) in the club house how he always plays under 80 and you soon learn he meant 80 degrees, not his score.

I, laughingly now, took a guy elk hunting that I fished with a few times and learned all about the elk he'd shot in Montana as a boy and going to college. The stories sounded like he was another Meriwether Lewis. The first morning we walked out of camp together and that was the last I saw of him for 3 days !! My suspecions were raised the night before because in talking at dinner he'd talked about reloading his '06 ammo by filling the shell to the base of the shoulder with powder and then putting the bullet in. That was it !!!

As said, he was lost for three nights and on the morning of the fourth day Search and Rescue was mounting up at base camp.....we found him not a half mile from camp. Been there the whole time waiting to be found. Talk about screwing up a hunt. All he could talk about was what fun it was to just be out in the mountains alone and watch the birds and clouds go by.

So needless to say this guy was removed from my address book. If you want to talk the talk, you'd better have walked the walked else your true self will be found out by those around you.....in elk camp or here .

No, it doesn't appear as though he's from Texas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />......

Maybe the "AR" means he's from Aruba!

AC, if you think I'm a troll, all I can say is, I go by my own name, and I can furnish all the personal, printed, and video references you'd like to examine. Quite honestly, you appear to be more of a troll than anyone else on this thread. If you have nothing to hide, tell us your real name. How about it?

AD

Do you guys SERIOUSLY expect this phony to actually post his hunting experiences? How many times has he been asked now, here and on the other thread that he started where he asked about hunting experiences with buffalo yet he fails to mention his own when asked over and over? Hell, the best he can come up with is a picture of a cow elk that only heaven knows who shot it ( he claims he did on his first post, but then dances around it and says he gave it a coup de grace with his 500) and he expects us to believe he's actually been elk hunting let alone africa? This guy's ot better doublespeak BS than a clinton (Bill or hillary, take your pick). rick, I don't know if you've seen this guy's posts, but we are talking serious dementia here. Why don't you do like you said and get lost? jorge

Jorge,

Why do you call me a phony? Do you have evidence that I am other than I have claimed?

You also stated an inaccuracy in the proceeding quote of yours. I never said I shot it, inferring that I was the hunter.



I said I killed it. Which is precisely what I did.

Are you bored yet, or does libelling people excite you? If I posted my real name, and you attached your comments about me to it you would most definitely be guilty of libel (if anyone believed what you posted that is). So by me not posting my name I am helping keep you out of trouble. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now if you simply say your sorry and apologize for the namecalling I will leave this site. Since it is becoming more and more obvious that I will not fit into the clique. Afterall I have been told I am an arrogant ass and point out all of your (collectively now) short comings.

AC

Don't forget liar also, I think a phony is an under statement. Why don't you answer your own questions ( and those posed by others) and tell us of your specific hunting experiences. You dropped in here making all sorts of claims, and what was even more galling you claim to know our level of experience. I know you are a nothing but a troll and by answering you I just continue the agony, but you know what? you'll leave when you are ready to leave, you can't even hold true to your own statements ( how many times now have you said you weren't coming back?). Well how about it? what is your african hunting experience? And I think most of us here have probably seen you under another name before. I suggest you get help. jorge

Jorge,

My my we are testy aren't we. I assure you have only posted here at "AC_of_AR" and only started within the last, what week. Now why would I answer any questions asked of me by someone who is so courteous as to call me a phony and a liar? At this point I wouldn't answer any of your pathetic "feel better about myself" questions if you had a gun to my head.

I have learned in a very short time how these little internet cliques work, and evidently you are one of the prissy little g___s that run this clique. It must really p!ss you off to no end, and obviously does based upon your comments about me, that someone would actually challenge any of your "expert" opinions. I realize that several other do not appreciate my comments, but you sir, have been the most caustic.

Now do us both a favor and leave me alone. I will most certainly do likewise (what form that takes is up to me, but right now I believe leaving this site would be a good start).

AC

(what form that takes is up to me, but right now I believe leaving this site would be a good start).

AC [/quote]

All together now, let's wave bye-bye!!
Holy mackeral dere, Andy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hey AC, before you go better check out the big bore section, some poor soul just bought a 404 Jeffery. Better go tell him it wont kill any thing past 30 feet & the bullets blow up on muskrat fur before he wastes more money on Woodleighs. ( mebbe spelled it wrong but I could care less, so don't bother).
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"Hunted with" aint the same thing as harvested game with.

I have hunted with my 416, but have yet to have it in my hands when there was something to kill.

I would love to have a 450 too, or a 458 W or Lott, or 460Weatherby. But more than that I would love AR to
( Nothing acceptable to a decent forum comes to mind.) Oh just go away [bleep].

Back to the issue, at least for me, the .416s are much easier to shoot than the bigger stuff (like some others here as well). Maybe not significantly so at close range and standing, but for more all round use where the shots may be long and quite deliberate, from the sit or some other substantial position where the recoil does matter. From my very limited experience, the bigger guns do hit harder, but not enough to make me carry one.

This is my first post and frankly don’t know why there is so much postering. Here is my experience from my May 2023 hunt in South Africa. I hunted plains game with my Mauser M98 375 H&H and my Cape Buffalo with my Mauser M98 450 Rigby. Except for a one shot Axis deer hunt in Texas using a 300 WM, I had not hunted since my mid-30s and I was 71 when I hunted Africa last year. I am no John Wayne hero type, nor am I a masochist. I had a mercury piston and muzzle brake installed on both. The 375 is down to the level of an -06 and the 450 shove was acceptable compared to the sharp and painful recoil of the 300 WM. What that means is all this banter of recoil from a 416 vs 450 is silly and unnecessary. I took down my measured 46” horn spread Cape Buffalo with one shot using a hand loaded (by my friend and oufitter) 500 gr Swift A Frame soft at about 100 yds. (Note: my PH set me up for where he thought the bull would come out at 30 yds but that bull didn’t listen to him I guess). Dropped in 40 yds. (Double lung slight quartering with a complete energy dump shown by my recovering a perfectly mushroomed bullet pushing out the hide on its left side that looked like it hadn’t lost a grain).

Cape Buffalo are very tough animals. There are many verifiable stories aplenty about bulls shaking off many shots from a “bazooka” round and only succumbing at the feet of the hunter and PH from a barrage of shots on the charging bull. Moral of this story is, get a recognized DG caliber you can shoot well and it is the luck of the draw on whether your bull succumbs quickly (as mine did) or instead decides you need to die, regardless if shot with a 375, 416, 450, 505, or 760 for that matter. After all, if a particular caliber were the say all, be all, why is there a need for a PH or two when hunting DG? And for that matter, if that were the case why are there so many hunter/PH deaths each year by the horns of Black Death? It ain’t because the bulls were shot with BBs.

Seriously?

Geez this was a blast from the past.

Allways funny when some new fugging guy drags up a 20 year old post by a new fugging guy seaking relevance. Lol. Mb

I did a search on a particular question I had. This thread popped up. I see now the age of the post; I didn’t when I wrote my post. The age of the post shouldn’t matter since the basis of the post is as relevant today as it was in 2005. That said, I can see that, as I feared, only knuckle dragging fifth grade buffoons wanting to take cheap shots dwell in this cavern of empty mindedness forum.

Learned my lesson. You proved why I regard forums as the bastion of the self-pontificating buffoons and ignoramuses.

Good bye and good riddance.

[img][/img]

Thin skin and the internet are not a good combination

Geeez and no one told him to GFY.

You can't be all recoil shy and survive on the interwebs.

You can't be all recoil shy and survive on the interwebs.[/quote]


Truer words were never spoken.....