Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors pr4 64 M70 loading pressures and torque specs

Finally found the nice, un modified, shooter grade pre 64 M70 I’ve been looking for. How careful do I need to be with ammo pressure with either factory ammo or my handloads? I’m not worried about action or barrel so much, I know when identify pressure and when to stop. I’m more worried about stressing or cracking the un bedded wood stock. And no I’m not going to bed it either. I want it to stay original.

And second question, related to the above fear of stock cracks, how tight should I set the action screws? And yes I know to only barely snug up the center screw.

Cracks generally happen to the heavy kickers like the 338wm and 375H&H. If your stock is not cracked yet, then it is probably not a heavy kicker and it is inletted very well. Just keep in mind, once it cracks out on you, you can't put it back.. Ask some here that have had stocks crack out on them. You get a lot of guys here that scoff at glass bedding a pre 64, but if it is not 100% original, I'm going to glass bed it. I've proven over and over that it also helps improve the accuracy/precision as well. Again, like I've said before. For those of you that don't shoot your rifles, it is perfectly acceptable to keep it in the original stock and in the gunsafe. When you are gone, I'm sure your family will appreciate the fact you never glass bedded them..

Question one. The most troublesome stock failures reflecting barreled action "set back" where the rear tang aft point is against wood as the action integral recoil lug not in reasonable full contact. The tang not meant to take recoil forces, cracking. The early (pre 1950 or so) so-called cloverleaf tang more prone to such cracking. The redesigned 1950+ latter oval style less prone. But 'rule' the same. To achieve close as possible full recoil lug mating to wood stock contact where the forces are intended to achieve widest wood dispersion. A thin metal shim can be utilized on a trial-fit basis. Not as good as the 'squishy solidified' bedding fit. The 'worry' factor as primarily manifest in heavy recoil chambered guns or ones running hot loads. Wood changes over decades. drying as hardening; resilience diminished. 'usually' iin the 'pre' era Model 70 quality, with little effect. Your concern is legitimate. The old "lampblack" purposed modern equivalent as fit indicator may be useful. A 'touch' of tang wood tip area relief if tight, might be 'safe side'.

Question two. About 'so much'! Proper fitting screwdriver something less than full pressure achievable. "T" handle screwdriver maximum levered pressure as surely too much. Maybe someone can venture scientific measured "foot pounds of torsion, but only useful if you have an adaptable torque measuring instrument. In my words... "Firm but not max 'average man' achievable!

My non-gunsmith take. Perhaps others to offer better answer!
Your concern as above, well placed. The fact of concern, boding well for your rifle's welfare! Just not to extent of 'expectant' parent syndrome!
Best!
John

Postscript as "Hi BSA!" Your Post coming as I was yet pontificating here. Fully concurring with your 'Pro words!' Best!

Never had a M70 stock crack and I’ve never torqued anything on a gun.

I too have never had one crack but have cracked stocks on guns (many models) that I stocked myself through the years.

I have also seen / owned pre 64's with cracks at the tang. Most if not all pre 64 stock cracks are/were the result of loose guard screws. Always tighten the front guard screw first and as tight as possible with a good fitting screwdriver, then the rear as tight or nearl as tight. The middle one just gets seated.

Springfields and M1917 Enfields had a technque to help prevent stock crackage and some use it on pre 64 Win 70's or Win 70's in general. Before final tightening slam the butt onto the ground holding the gun vertically and then final tighten.

The cracks in the web near the trigger seem omnipresent and not an issue.

Well I might also pick up some sort of a synthetic stock to shoot and keep the wood in the safe.

I agree with Pocono Jack, I too have never had a stock crack nor concerned myself with action screw torque.

Great idea. That is what a lot of us do, that actually shoot our rifles.

That.

I've had many M70s in the shop with cracked stocks - usually around the trigger and magazine inlets. They can be strengthened to prevent further damage.. Pinning is one way that can work well, coupled with slight easing of the wood around then applying a good epoxy..

This. I've never seen a cracked M70 stock in almost 60 years of being around them. Don't over-complicate things, just shoot it. No need for a synthetic stock either, unless of course you need to fit with the "in crowd". As for torquing, I only use torque wrenches on my cars - wood is dynamic and takes on moisture and loses it depending on the whims of humidity, so a strictly adhered to torque setting is superfluous, IMO.

No torque anything, farmer tight on front action screw, good and snug on the rear, blue loc-tite on the center screw to keep from backing out, only tight enough that the floor plate works properly, forearm screws get loc-tite as well, they're only just started or completely removed and in small ziplock bags, no cracked stocks here either.

One thing i do is make sure ALL screws drop freely through bottom metal to the action threads, any screw that wont drop in free gets it hole slightly drilled out for clearance, i use boiled linseed oil and a q-tip to add finish to the drilled hole, couple three coats over 4-5 days and all is sealed and well.

Great suggestion on the action screw holes. I don't know if you can remember or not, but the beautiful stock that was on the pre 64 375 H&H I sold you was cracked when I bought it from my smith. He did a repair on it and then I glass bedded it. I pulled the stock off of that rifle and sold it because you didn't want a cracked stock. You then sent me a stock to put on that rifle. I glass bedded that stock and you were off to the races. I'm not going to bad mouth anyone here that has never seen a pre 64 stock crack, but it happens and quite often with the magnums. The reason Winchester went with cross bolts in their factory stocks for the 375's, there toward the end. I've personally seen a few 338wm's and 375's with cracked stocks. And the area in between the trigger and magazine mortise will crack out too, but what is even worse is when they crack out at the tang. That always scares me. A good reason to seal the inside of the stock, but then naysayers and collectors may gripe. I'm glad redneck has seen some pre 64's with cracked stocks, as I often wonder if some of the guys here get butt hurt and like to be argumentative. Maybe they just haven't had a lot of pre 64's? However, with that being said I used to hang out at my gunsmiths shop and he would show me cracked stocks from such rifles. It does happen and was a huge ordeal when the 338's first came out. Speaking of my old smith. One hell of a good guy. At one time he had just 144 magnum pre 64's in his collection. One guy I know had 2 of his 338wm stocks crack out. One in '59 and another a year later. I also have to say that I know of one guy here that also had his 338wm stock crack out on him, but he's being pretty tight lipped. Or maybe it slipped his mind? He runs mainly synthetic stocks on his pre's now. And he does have a fine collection of rifles running Mcmillans right now.. Just sayin..

Heck I saw a pre War 257 Roberts with a crack at the tang. I guarantee that the guard screws were finger tight if that tight when it was fired and that is what cracked it. I do not know that as a fact, as I didn't do it or see it done, but that is common knowledge in how to crack a perfectly good stock.

Yep, just in my window shopping around I’ve personally seen a couple stock cracks in just .270 and 30-06’s. And I’m far from an expert.

I bought mine knowing it was cracked from the get go though.









I had a buddy at Noslers Pro Shop that sold me this for the grand sum of a 1000 bucks. I figured I’d take a chance on it.

I did pillar it and bed it, and the rifle shot as good as it did in the Legend but it was just a touch too short for me to be comfortable. I did take a few elk with it before putting it into its first McMillan.

I kinda always blamed the stocks for its weird shooting. Once I lapped it I realized I was blaming the wrong things.

I hunted the wood stock for a few years though. If I didn’t plan on collecting or making money off them they’d get glassed and pillared myself. I don’t like to fret what my rifles going to do when it’s killing time.

I've always admired that rifle Scotty. I love the 338wm's. I almost bought a nearly all original Alaskan last year for $1,500.00, but then I noticed the tang had been polished and re blued. I still don't know why they did that to the rifle??? I passed on it. I could have sand blasted and cold blued it to an almost original state, but why?? You definitely did well on your rifle at a grand. You know you don't run across those too often. One of my uncles has one, but he overpaid for it because the bolt handle has been ground on for "scope clearance", according to him. That one mod always pizzes me off when I see it. I've never done it myself and have never seen the need to do it. Just use slightly taller rings. Don't grind off metal!!!! Guys get pizzed that I glass bed a stock or switch to a Mcmillan or similar synthetic stock, but I will never modify a bolt handle or drill the side of the receiver. Those are the mods that really erk me.. I've pulled 100% original stocks off of rifles and bought user stocks off of ebay as well for $150.00. Seems the original stocks that sat in cardboard boxes always eventually got sold off too, because they weren't doing anyone any good sitting in a box. I just sold a stock recently for almost $300.00 that was definitely not original. It was one I installed a red pachmayr on and glass bedded. The buyer is going to use that stock to save his original. A suggestion I may have for the op: if he's concerned about his stock, buy one off of ebay or the like and then he can glass bed it, refinish it, paint it, etc. etc. Do what he wants to it without fear his original stock is going to get hurt. There's always shooter stocks there that are worth considering.

For sure, do what you want with them. I am not going to grind metal away or anything like that, but I have no issue with setting wood to the side and hunting a good glass stock.

Like I said, I never encountered a cracked one, or knew of one, or had one described by someone I knew in person. But I'll admit that consideration for magnums never entered my mind as I've never owned one and don't recall anyone I'm personally acquainted with owning one. Not much call or reason for such beasts here in Maryland/Pennsylvania, except maybe by those who have some psychological reason to have one. I'll shoot Hornet-to-'06 stuff all day long but refuse to rattle my brain with even one shot from a .300/.338/.340/.375 magnum. I instilled a creeping flinch into myself from the cumulative effects of decades of trap&skeet shooting - the direct cause of my bolloxed up neck geometry, according to every orthopedic surgeon I've consulted with - and I don't want to reawaken that flinch. Y'all can have your magnums.

Good stuff BSA and Big Buddy, B, yes i remember BSA, that stock came from our old buddy BobinNH, he gave it to me, i think i gave it to Scotty, Justin at pre-64win sold me the stock i sent to you for bedding, and as said, i couldn't give a rip about bedding stocks, same with adding a bit of finish to protect the wood from rot or oil soak, making these rifles serviceable as long as i own them is all i care about, my survivors, auction houses and potential new owners can argue that value bullchit, i wont be giving AFF! ; ]

And yessir, the action itself acts as a wedge to split the wood on every firing, screws against the holes are even worse, a pre-wedge splitter if you will, i put them to sleep making them ineffective only holding the pieces together.