Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mauser vs. Mannlicher-Schoenauer ?

Last night I read the M.98 was stronger than a M-S. What are your thoughts? The split bridge shouldn't make the M-S any weaker and IIRC, it was chambered in magnum calibers.

Joe,

Which model of M-S? The M1903 would not be a choice for a magnum...jim

Hello,

I think "stronger" should be defined for this case. But, the M-Sch. is not weaker by the split bridge. In fact, in regards to the safety lug, de M-Sch. is much much stronger than the Mauser! Look at the bolt handle and the long rib machined in the bolt body. All of these is the safety lug!!! And the front part of the breaching system is as strong in the M-S as in the Mauser.

Regards,

PH

There are a lot of different "Mauser 98s", too, with varying quality of metallurgy and fabrication.

What are you planning to do, build a modern Whiz Magnum on an antique action? You can buy vintage Mausers and Mannlichers in everything from .300 H&H to 8x68, .375 H&H, .458 Win Mag, etc.

I have owned older Mannlichers in .270 and .30-06, and have a 1950 .30-06 now, which I really love.

The Steyr SBS is not as sleek as the 1903 or the Model SL/L/M/S series, but it is super strong. The SBS and the current Mauser 98 are both proofed at 90,000 psi.

The 98 Mauser is stronger and by a good deal. Mostly due to metalurgy and the fact that the Mauser is case hardened on the outside and softer on the inside, which by design is made to expand and puff up as opposed to fragmenting as would say a Win. M-70...As to design safety I still believe the M-98 is the better of the two. I believe the split bridge is weaker in design simply by the fact that it is less shored up and thus would be more inclined to being springy by design..

There are no rifles out there today that are as well designed as the Mauser Mod. 98 if you really study your rifle designs. NOthing on a Mauser is there without reason, every nick, cut, protrusions is there for a reason. The Mauser brothers were way beyond their time.

Ray,

Well said as usual. In my opinion a Mauser style of action is the epitome of design. I would say though that the FN's were as good and take less to get "modernized".

ddj

The real reason the 98 is probably stronger than the Mannlicher is that the forward portion of the bolt body, that portion upon which the locking lugs reside, is hollowed out to accept the bolt head. As a consequence of this aspect of design, there is less supporting steel under the lugs. In addition, the smaller receiver ring could account for some difference in ultimate strength. I've always thought the M-S was a marvel because it was an old design which perservered not because the dsign was all that great but because the workmanship of the rifles was. The reputation the rifles had was truly amazing. The relatively awkward bolt handle location and what should have been a weak stock didn't seem to hurt in any way or they were, at least, overlooked. M-S fans are practically rabid in their support of their favorite; just like the M98 fans! GD

I certanly agree with you an Atkinson about the near perfection of the Mauser 98 design!!
Being also very good and above all, extremely well done, and with the best materials and heat threating, especially the post war ones, the Mannlicher-Schoenauer is not comparable as a whole, to the Mauser 98 !!
As Atkinson, said, every single design detail in the M98 has a porpouse and, almost, cannot be improved.
To me (I have had a M-Sch. GK 7x64 made in 1964, the best made rifle I have had) the most important failures in the M-Sch. design are:

1- An extremely slow lock-time (combined with)
2- An extremely heavy firing pin
3- Too forward the bolt handle

Said that, they are very, very well made rifles, with very, very good barrels and materials.

Regards

PH

I too would think that a good M98 would be stronger, and a whole lot easier to convert to a different caliber. The issue as I know it with the M-S is the rotary magazine. Very difficult to change the rifle to any cartridge very much different from what it was originally chambered in. Later M-S designs would be a different case.

Mannlicher built Mausers, from the 1888 Commission, through the M-98. You still see their old sporting Mausers for sale, and newer ones built on their 98 actions.

A well-made Mauser 98 is stronger than the M-S 1903 action, but one where the bolt lugs do not completely mate up to the locking recesses is not. The M-S is a like a balanced and blueprinted engine, with every part fitting very precisely. This lack of play contributes to the strength. For the same reason, a BRNO Mauser or an FN Mauser action is also very strong, as well as very smooth.

It's like comparing the better models produced by Mercedes, BMW and Jaguar - in a different class.

The likely reason for the reputation of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer is the success of the 6.5x54 in Africa after the 1903 sporter came out. This cartridge, because of its very long deep penetrating 160 grain bullet, killed way out of proportion to its calibre despite piffling muzzle energy, which is actually about the same as a .30-30. It had an easy recoil. The guns were light in weight and the carbine, with its full forend, was especially sleek looking as well. They were, as others have already noted, very well made. Also they were comparatively inexpensive and could be had, for not much more money, with a good scope sight early on. Many hunters found they could shoot them better than other rifles. All these qualities kind of came together and the M/S achieved a stellar fame which spread to all its models and which it has never lost.

Hi vigillinus,

They, like the Original Sporting Mausers, were never inexpensive ! And the total number of M-S ever made, from the first 1903 to the last around 1972 is in the order of 150.000. Like the Original Sporting Mausers.
And even today, the M-S, mostly the last ones in 7x64, .30-06 and 8x68, have more than a few followers. In Belgium, Austria, France and even Germany.

PH

They, and the excellent factory Mauser sporters as well, were substantially cheaper than British custom Mausers or Farquharsons, not to speak of double rifles.

IMHO the MS is just a classy little rifle. I won't put them in the same category as a Mauser for a general purpose BG rifle,but they are so beautifully made,and sleek,and unique in design and construction that I think they deserve their own special category.

I had one in 257 Roberts, factory engraved with a factory leather storage case and Lyman Alaskan scope that I wish I had not sold.A buddy had a 7x57 that he used to hunt Vermont a lot.I wish those two rifles were still around...

I have no real expertise or abiding affection for most bolt guns -- sold all of them but 1. Its an M/S MCA in .30-06 with a full stock. It feels alive in my hands and that butter smooth bolt and rotary mag are marvels of craftasmanship. It shoots too.

I rescued it from a steep, down-hill slide, in terms of abuse and it is now presentable again, but only in the same sense that a much old dinged hockey warrior ever is.

1B

I have owned 2 M/S model 1908 rifles, as well as an MCA from the 1960s The MCA weighed about 1.5 pounds more the the '08s, mainly because they beefed up the action for post war production, when they started chambering for the modern cartridges. Not sure how that translates into strength vs a M98, but Mausers didn't need to get redesigned to take modern pressures. As an aside, the fit and finish on the MCA, though still cosmetically very nice, did not compare to the the prewar rifles.

As I said the 98 Mauser is stronger by design, but that is not to say the MS isn't strong enough, it most certainly is for the cartridges it comes in..The MS is one of the nicest rifles every built and I love those little 1903s they are just awesome rifles as are the wonderful small ring Brno M-21 and 22, probably the best bolt action rifle ever built commercially..

As to the FN, it is also a fine rifle and plenty strong but not as strong as a good Mauser 98...Never buy a FN in a 300 wby, 7STW etc, it will develope headspace as Roy Weatherby soon found out..I have seen a number of them go bad with the very high intensity rounds but if you use them for the short magnums, the 06 size cases, even the big bores such as the .375, 416, and 458 Lott they are an outstanding action, just stay away from the bad boys of gundome, which I see little use for anyway, as they mostly belch flame, high pressures, a big a$$ boom, and you get a couple of hundred FPS, that you never needed to start with IMO...

Ray, in the late 1940s or early 50s Sako made some rifles on FN actions in .375 and .300 H&H that were especially well stocked. They are very good looking. Once in a while one shows up at a gun show. Do you think these are OK for strength?

The reason they developed excessive headspace, and the occasional blow up was because of the lengthened magazine.

The front, or feed ramp of the magazine cutout in the action itself was expanded forward to accomadate the longer cartridges.

This in turn weakened the action in the area of the bottom front locking lug recess. When lengthened in this manner, the bottom lug on the bolt is not supported as well as on a standard length M 98, and the action is weakened.

For a .300 H & H, or a .375 H & H, and SAAMI pressures, or whatever the pressures the factory uses, I would consider the actions to be okay and safe. To the best of my knowledge factory loads of the above two mentioned cartridges are not loaded all that hot, anyway.

At high pressures, such as some full length Weatherby cartridges and some wildcats, it is not recommemded.