Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Primer hardness

I 've been having trouble getting a certain non bolt action to consistantly fire. Prior questions on this board led me to measure all sorts of things, and never find the problem. Eventually I decided the gun was faulty until a lever shooting friend told me to try large pistol primers instead of large rifle, and the problem went away. I've not had problems with Federal factory ammo (30-30), but approximatly 50% of my CCI #200 handloads won't fire on the first try. With the pistol primers I get 100% fires. Which leads me to believe that I should try using a "softer" primer, whether that be large pistol or something other than CCI #200s. I seem to remember reading somewhere that CCI primers were "harder" than others, while Federal were the "softest," if this is true, it would account for what I have observed. Does anyone have any information regarding the hardness of various primers?

My CCI200 are softer than the WLR primers I have.I saw this with the firing pin cratering and lack of it,in my son's rifle.It could be you are not getting enough thump.

Eric,

IMHO, using pistol primers in a rifle is a poor practice, at best. Worse case scenario would likely be failure to ignite, or hang fire in colder temps. That being said, at the very least, it appears that you might have isolated the problem. And that's a good thing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My experience leads me to believe that CCI 200's are one of the hardest primers out there. Winchester WLR's in the white box are fairly hard, as well. The newest W-W's in the blue box are reportedly softer. Also the W-W primers of 20 or 25 yrs ago (Yellow Box) are somewhat softer, as well.

However, I wouldn't think of swithching to softer primers as a cure to the problem. I would think that likely your firing pin spring has weakened over time. I would certainly try replacing that and see if it helps. Also, there may be a burr somewhere on the firing pin that is slowing the travel. Perhaps polishing the firing pin may help, as well.

Just idle thoughts off the top of my shiny, pointed, lil' head. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Do hope it helps, tho'....the9.3Guy

Eric...

Your real problem is that there's something wrong with your rifle's firing pin mechanism... perhaps the firing pin is a tad short or the firing pin spring is a little weak... or something is inhibiting the forward movement of the firing pin thus causing it to strike the surface of the primer with less force. Pistol primers ARE purposely made "softer" than rifle primers... and there's a good reason for it.

Generally, a rifle's firing pin "hits" the primer harder than a pistols' firing pin... and to eliminate the possibility that the rifle's firing pin will pierce the surface of the primer and possibly pose a danger (from escaping hot powder gases) to the shooter, primer manufactures properly make the rifle's primer metal surface less likely to be pierced by using thicker or stronger ( or both) metal in manufacturing rifle primers.

Rather than rig up your cartridges to fire more easily by using pistol primers in rifle cartridges, I strongly recommend you dismantle your rifle's bolt and thoroughly degrease, clean and apply a little fresh lubricant to the firing pin mechanism and reassemble the bolt.

Then, rather than test the firing mechanism with "live" rounds, simply put some rifle primers in the empty cartridge cases and insert the empty case in your rifle's chamber and pull the trigger. If you don't get 100% successful firing of the rifle primers, it is time to take your rifle to a qualified gunsmith.

CCI makes excellent primers... and their #200 rifle primer is one of the best... so it's NOT the primers... it's YOUR rifle's firing mechanism.

The only other thing that MIGHT be causing your problem is that you're using too much "pressure" in seating the primers and crushing the anvils in some of the primers, but if that were the case, then you'd probably have firing problems with the pistol primers as well.

But DEFINITELY stop using pistol primers in your rifle... that's a dangerous "substitution" that might end up harming your eyesight if your rifle's firing pin pierces one of those pistol primers!!!


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

I`m with 9 3 Guy on useing pistol primers in rifle cartridges, not the best fix.
Shallow seating, headspace problems, and crushed primers (too deep) a wore or broke fireing pin, can all cause primers to fail to fire. I would also suspect there might be a piece of grit or a burr keeping the striker from falling properly or oil/lube build up. Springs are pretty tough to damage but it is possible yours has weakened. Leaving them stored in a cocked position is claimed to be hard on them although I can`t verify it. I would look for a cause rather then use a questionable fix if at all possible

I don't want to turn this into a Magnum Research bashing thread, which is why I avoided mentioning that it's a Lone Eagle handgun. However, this one (apparently) was manufactured with too short a firing pin (according to Mag. Res.) and they'll SELL the correct pin for something like $80 (been a year since I talked to them about it). However there's no way in hell I'll pay them to fix THEIR quality control problem. So, I'm looking for solutions from my end. Seeing as I can get Federal factory ammo to consistantly fire, I think I can avoid switching to pistol primers. As an aside, my primer testing has been in uncharged cases, so there's not really any risk. Along those lines, the magnum pistol primers produced considerably more fire in my testing than the standard large rifle primers, so I wouldn't expect them to have any issues with inability to ignite the powder as 9_3GUY suggested.

Eric,

You need to get on the horn and call Magnum Research's customer service. They marketed a defective product and they should make it right by asking you to send your pistol in for repair whether or not its under warranty. Call em, be polite and ask them to repair your pistol free of charge. If they won't, hint around with em......(you know what to say) Good luck, I hope they make it right for you.

MtnHtr

Did that last year, and came to the conclusion that I will never buy another MRI product. I tried some winchester large rifle primers last night to see if they worked any better... nope. They also fired at a 50% rate, same as the CCI's. I still need to get my hands on some Federals, since I seem to remember having no problem with their factory loads when I first purchased the gun. Any idea on how much weaker the pistol primer is than the rifle? Might it work safely in low pressure reloads?

Sorry to hear they (MRI) are not backing up their products. I'd contact a consumer agency or ship it back to em with a nice letter to the VIP of MRI. Remember the power of the internet too. You may just want to visit some pistol forums. Your Desert Eagle should fire with any factory ammo regardless................

MtnHtr

Did you take it back to the dealer and see if he would give them a call? They might be afraid they will loose the buisness.


There is also the better buisness bureau. An inquiry from them can get a lot done...

ALL Federal primers, whether pistol or rifle, have a thinner cup than CCI's or indeed almost any other primer. Federal rifle primers might very wolve your problem. I've used that solution to misfires in both rifles and handguns.

The Federal #210 Large Rifle primers were the solution. They fire every single time, whereas the CCI, Winchester, and Remington primers fire ~50%. Nothing wrong with those other primers, it's just a low power firing mechanism. Just to clarify, this is NOT a Desert Eagle, it's a SSP-91 (aka Lone Eagle).

A bit about the gun, since most aren't familiar with them, they were produced beginning in 1986 under the name of SSP-86 by Ordnance Technology (Stetson, ME- no longer exists), then for Magnum Research Inc. in 1991 & 1992 as the SSP-91, in 1993 they renamed the product to "Lone Eagle." Some time ago, late 90's I believe, they stopped production all together. It's a rotating breech action, so there is minimal firearm length devoted to the action. The Contender/Encore shares this advantage, whereas the various bolt actions do not. Essentially this means that you can have a shorter / lighter handgun with a longer barrel. They have a 14" barrel, mine produces similar velocity as one would expect from a 20"
rifle version (30-30). The firearm also has a mid-grip, allowing it to balance easily, unlike rear-grip firearms (e.g. Contender) that shoot more like a rifle than a handgun. Accuracy has been good, on par with what you might expect from a factory rifle, e.g. 2" groups at 100 yards with most ammunition.... when it fires <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />



IMHO, The Competitor pistol (www.competitor-pistol.com) appears to offer all of the advantages of the Lone Eagle, but be of higher quality manufacture. If I were to buy another single shot pistol, that would be the one.

Glad you found a remedy. Fed primers are alot cheaper than a firing pin. I still think Magnum Research should make it right. My mistake on terming it a Desert Eagle.........................

MtnHtr

I know that Federal primers are softer than WW/CCI/Rem/CIL/Vihtavuori from experience. I have noted that they will show a lot more "flattening" with a given load than their competition. However, I like them for some applications, and will continue to use them. Glad you solved your problem for this one anyway. Regards, Eagleye.