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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I deployed bear spray eight times over a ten year period…. against dogs… 9oz cans and I’d always replace the can after each use so it weren’t cheap.

I used it on inbound dogs closing in on my two blue heelers when I was walking them around the neighborhood. In every case my heelers were the intended target. Every time out we encountered loose dogs, almost all of which could be bluffed off. A bit less than once tho a year one couldn’t and bear spray was deployed. IIRC including two each of inbound pits and rotties and one boxer.

Worked every time but how this is relevant here…..

Bear spray doesn’t point naturally like a handgun, the can gives it an unnatural vertical “grip” angle such that I usually sprayed too low. I eventually learned to “aim” about a foot above the inbound dog’s back.

The times I didn’t hold over (first eight times?) over I missed the inbound dog.

#1) I would think that many people using bear spray against bears also shoot low for the same reason.

# 2) Even though I missed most inbound dogs with the pepper spray, it still worked. It was the sudden unexpected blast that appeared to instantly trigger the dogs’ flight response.

One time a big Rottweiler at night got in close before I saw it and it chased my loose dog in an oval orbit around me. Each close pass I gave the rott a close range blast right in the face maybe four times in a row. No visible effect on the dog.

Eventually the rott, its face dripping with bear spray, stopped to rub its face in the grass, no apparent distress, just wanted to clear its eyes.

#3) Capsacin might not affect bears like it does humans, it’s the blast that startles them.

JMHO


"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744

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Campfire Ranger
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gonehuntin, that's an interesting take, all right. It seems that Svalbard is a lot like Churchill, Manitoba... a remote town located on the fringe of polar bear distribution, that attracts a lot of bears when the ice is out and the bears can't hunt seals. So a lot of folks go there for bear-watching.

I have to wonder what the governor of Svalbard based his policy on, as I can't find any citations of research in this area from Norway or Scandinavia in general. There is a comprehensive retrospective study focusing on polar bear attacks done by US researchers, however, that shows pretty good effectiveness of bear spray for deterring polar bear attacks (https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/wsb.1403#:~:text=We%20found%20that%20bear%20spray,in%2018%20of%2019%20incidents).

Polar bears are obligate carnivores, and since humans are made of meat, we fit nicely into the polar bear diet pyramid. Attacks by polar bears are almost always predation, unlike black or grizzly attacks. I've spoken to folks who've lived in Churchill, and they're awfully proud of the fact that they've 'lived with' polar bears. There havent' been many bear attacks in Churchill for decades, but I note that in Svalbard there have been at least 6 people killed by polar bears (and eaten, or partially eaten).

I don't have any back country experience with polar bears, and maybe if someone here does it would be interesting to hear from them about how that went. Polar bear attacks are pretty rare, mostly because there's little opportunity for people and PB's to interact. But I do know that the guys in Churchill don't have much use for anything smaller than a 12-gauge slug gun. I can't find anything, anywhere,

Tom Smith's study of Alaska bear attacks 1880-2015 (https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=TUOTijQAAAAJ&citation_for_view=TUOTijQAAAAJ:hC7cP41nSMkC) states that fewer than 1% of all attacks involved polar bears. His study of bear spray in Alaska 1985-2006 (https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=TUOTijQAAAAJ&citation_for_view=TUOTijQAAAAJ:qxL8FJ1GzNcC) states that bear spray was used in only 2 of 83 uses of bear spray in that time period in Alaska, but it stopped the bear attack both times. Not much of a number to base conclusions on.

Since human-polarbear interactions tend to occur in the warmer months of the year, I suppose bear spray might be a reasonable thing to carry out on the tundra, but I don't think spray cans are reliable much below 32F. The Inuit people I've talked to in the past, and seen interviews with here and there over the years, seem to think that a .308 is plenty good for polar bear medicine.


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
So you punt instead of addressing a single statement. Argument to Authority is weak and your hero Herrero is a prime example for it.

Punt? I didn't punt, chum. I chose to ignore your non-points because they are ridiculous. But here I go anyway. You goaded me into it.

You repeated some half-baked assertions about a published author and respected scientist, and then you expected me to, what... fold? Bow to your much greater wildlife wisdom because you live in Alaska (where all the TRUE experts are?

Half-baked assertions? Really? I have read BOTH issues of his book and compared them in hand. There are many discussions available of the issue if you have not or will not read them for yourself.

Don't give me that sh*t. I have decades of backcountry experience in Alberta, Montana, and Wyoming, and scores of bear encounters behind me. I have personally used bear spray on an aggressive grizzly (once) and a firearm on an aggressive black bear (once), and both times the result was positive. But I do not pretend that my personal experience is more valid than the research published by bear biologists. Your dismissal of Herrero (who is not "my hero", but what a clever little punster you are!) is nothing more than a list of criticisms that have come from internet forums.

Wow! Scores! Over decades! How about scores per day for many years, decades even. I kept a boat on Kodiak for almost three decades. It would not surprise me if I have been around more bears in a day than you have in total. I am certain I have cut up far more than you.

I already addressed your hero's book, which is bad science on many levels.


The fact that Steve Herrero is widely respected in academic wildlife biology as well as among working field biologists is a lot more important than your regurgitation of internet gossip. The brief post by longarm, above, should be instructive to you: he outlines in a few sentences a lot more truth about Herrero than you did in your entire post. Another thing to consider: Dr. Tom Smith, who has worked collaboratively with Herrero and others, and has published bear research for several decades and is currently considered North America's foremost bear biology expert, is pretty much on the same page on the matter of bear attacks and bear attack defense as Steve Herrero. Here's a link to Smith's research credentials, if you care to use it: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tom-Smith-12

Here is a hint; your hero has a LOT of "internet gossip" as you dismissively call it because he is not as respected as you seem to believe. There are many bear biologists with far more time in the field that have little to no respect for Herrero. Blind faith based on a piece of paper on the wall is ridiculous. I am sure you know what they call the last place finisher in med school...

Similarly, Gary Shelton (Canadian bear guide and author) has also published work that agrees with Herrero and Smith, and has reached the same conclusions about bear spray and firearms (i.e., there's a place for both).

Buuuut... to finish responding to your goad: you cited a single case where bear spray MAY have failed to stop an attack. You offer no details, because you don't know any. But you knew the guy, so what... you think that makes the case against bear spray definitive? Jeez.

I cited personal experience with spray, also. Never said living in Alaska makes a difference, but spending a lot of time around bears does.


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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