Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Meanwhile, on the Border,.....

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I truly wonder how many people, other then those in counties that touch the border, really care about this issue? Is it such an issue to them that it ranks up in the top five in their lives?

The vast majority of this entire border/illegals/drugs/crime, all boils down to money. The illegals are used to make money for businesses. The drugs and other crimes are all apart of another business.

"Is it such an issue to them that it ranks up in the top five in their lives? "

Yes, it is. Constant thievery and vandalism and trespassing.
So, yes it is.
At least that's what I've been told.

These problems could be handled and taken care of by those U.S. Government agencies that are responsible for border security. All it takes is the will of the elected officials to stop the flow and the criminal activity. It would appear that there is no will.
Cheers & Tighter Groups: Eaglesnester

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I realize it's an important issue for the border states and the country in general. I do think the border states and the more urban areas of the country, seem to get the largest amount of the illegals and the crime.

As to what i physically see the Mex's are keeping a low profile. The housing market has slowed, so there goes the framers, masons and roofers. There's still some commercial work, but that's in the larger areas.

The agriculture work that i see, is such that the Mex's aren't taken it away from anyone, they're the only one who wants it or will do it. That maybe totally different in other parts of the country though.

Should have a rousing round of aplause for a good succinct statement from "LE",....

MS 13 is no big deal,....and ya'll just move along,....
....nothing to see here,....this is all "Business as usual"

...Move along, now,

Link: http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_10629145?nclick_check=1

Border Patrol seizes more than $1M in cocaine
The Associated Press
Article Launched: 10/03/2008 10:11:49 AM PDT


TEMECULA, Calif.�Border Patrol agents have found cocaine with a street value of more than $1 million concealed in a gas tank compartment of a Mercedes-Benz stopped at a Temecula immigration checkpoint.
San Diego border patrol officials say in a news release an agent stopped the car driven by a Mexican citizen, who was legally traveling in the country.

Officials say after they questioned the driver Tuesday, a Border Patrol K-9 unit conducted an inspection and found 11 plastic, vacuum sealed bundles of cocaine in the compartment.

Hunter 1960,.......where were you when the K9 unit needed his balls scratched?

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Your so flippen uninformed, you think every damn drug arrest or criminal activity in the SW is MS-13 related. You need to read up and learn a little more about your Hispanic gangs. MS-13 isn't the only Hispanic street gang conducting business in the SW, it's just one of many.

The coke that was seized is just a tenth, of what gets through to the US, on a daily basis. It was no set back to the drug cartels/gangs, as this is just the risk of doing business. As to the USBP, this wasn't a "great victory in the battle of the drug war".

They know the "real deal" as to the amount of drugs smuggled into this country. In USBP/Immigrations case, you intervene with people coming across the border on a daily basis, you pick up a knack as to knowing what's out of place, due to verbal and non verbal clues.

They know that if you stop enough veh's and do enough interviews and searches, your going to find drugs. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who conducts drug interdiction or runs a K9 team.

If your going to talk about a subject why don't you read up on it and you'll learn some things. You want me to send you some gang info? Sorry, i wasn't scratching the dog's nuts, i was too busy watching your suck off the handler.

" If your going to talk about a subject why don't you read up on it and you'll learn some things. You want me to send you some gang info?"

..........Interminable boring rant,...per usual,....very narrow band / focus,....an seldome anything new, .....thought-wise.

it's not surprising that you're a leader in the "Ignore function" League,.....many folks just made that call, ,on you.

I think it's probably wise,....

Someone said you're a rent a cop,.....I dunno.

Fact is,...you don't know a damn thin gabout me,.....And I kinda' like that.

Your worst , and probably most annoying trait is your chronic defeatism,.......morale in the chitter pontification.

Mr. status quo,.....with less entusiasm for improving general situations.

..........." Due Proccess" my azz,.....you a team leader for the Club Gitmo detainnees, too ?

GTC

I really couldn't care less about "ignore", many folks here, you included, don't like to hear the truth and reality of a subject.

Anything other then their preconceived ideas is wrong, and you'll be punked out cause you think different then they do. I don't really care what they think.

Your the one who is boring, at least i've done the things, i am talking about. You talk about arresting illegals, arresting drug dealers, what's your experiences in that area? I am no rent a cop, been a certified officer and working for over the past decade.

I am not talking defeatism, i am talking truth. The article you posted regarding getting the coke on the border, that's not a spectacular issue, considering where it was seized.

If the drugs were found thousands of miles from the border, where it had made it into the US, after crossing the border i'ld say great job, for the LEO's who made the seizure. I am glad that the drugs were seized, but it's not a stunning victory in the war on drugs.

Regarding due process and civil right etc, you don't have a clue, i use it daily, how about you?

Like i stated, you can't have due process for those, that you want it applied upon, and not to those you don't. This country went down that road years ago, it didn't work then, and it won't work now.

If you recall Miranda was a person, and Hispanic, and IIRC the incident involving Miranda occured in Az. It might of been Ca. but i believe it was Az.

I think we''l just let Hunter1960 work himself up into a little Tempest in a Teapot,....( Vortex in a Toilet ?),....an get on with the news.

Spin in Peace, dipchit,.....careful you don't spin yourself to pieces.

GTC

A perspective on Arpaio's methods, reflective of the underlying compassion that's part of the Arizona Fabric,....and a factor that's apparently over some's heads / comprehension level.

Link: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/10/04/20081004arpaio-sweeps1004.html

Impact of Arpaio's sweeps is unclear
by Dennis Wagner - Oct. 4, 2008 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
Shortly after sunrise on a Thursday in late August, a half-dozen immigrants watched nervously as Maricopa County Sheriff's deputies pulled over an aging sedan.

The Hispanic driver, a day laborer, was handcuffed and placed in the rear of a patrol car.

Nearby, his Mexican and Guatemalan friends shuffled their feet outside an auto-repair shop, a pickup spot for workers in Fountain Hills.
Five months earlier, Fountain Hills and this site were targeted in one of the sheriff's crime-suppression sweeps against illegal immigrants, 16 of whom were rounded up for deportation.

That hasn't stopped day laborers from gathering on the corner at Saguaro Boulevard each morning, hoping a contractor will drive up offering work.

The story is the same in Mesa, Phoenix and other communities where Sheriff Joe Arpaio cracked down on immigrant-laborer hangouts: Workers returned within days, though sometimes in smaller numbers.

The impact of the sweeps on crime is less clear. The sheriff's goal for the sweeps is to improve public safety and suppress crime, plus drive out illegal immigrants.

In four of five smaller areas where sweeps occurred, calls for assistance increased or were relatively flat right after the raid compared with the same period a year earlier. In the other area, they declined.

In neighborhoods of north and east Phoenix, data show that total violent crimes rose after deputies conducted saturation raids. In Fountain Hills, sheriff's statistics show deputies dealt with more major crimes this June than they did in June 2007, yet fewer overall crimes.

At the least, residents and business owners agree, Arpaio has sent a daunting message to undocumented immigrants and would-be employers, warning that immigration laws are being enforced.

Jose, one of the immigrants who gathers in Fountain Hills in the morning, said the raids sent shivers through his community. "I have many friends who left Arizona for Las Vegas and other places," said Jose, who declined to give his last name. "We're always watching."

Jose said he risks arrest so he can provide for his two children, who were born in the United States. He has spent 13 years in the U.S. but lost his job at a concrete company months ago when the employer had to verify his Social Security number.

As Jose spoke, a landscaping truck approached. The driver slowed as if to stop, then saw the deputies nearby and veered away. Jose and his friends shook their heads ruefully.


Impact on immigration

To date, Arpaio has carried out eight high-profile crackdowns in six Valley cities.

Those operations involved hundreds of sworn deputies putting in thousands of work days. They arrested about 400 people, including more than 200 suspected illegal immigrants.

The state's illegal-immigrant population is estimated at about 500,000, the lion's share in metropolitan Phoenix. Assuming 300,000 reside in Maricopa County, the saturation patrols netted 0.4 percent of the total.

When Arpaio began his sweeps in March, he insisted they were "crime suppression" efforts rather than immigration roundups. But he vowed to detain every illegal immigrant encountered and touted the number arrested for deportation.

Arpaio targeted communities based on citizen requests or on what he said were reports of surging crime.

At Cave Creek and Bell roads, for example, business owners signed a petition complaining of day laborers. In Guadalupe, Arpaio's office said there was a crime wave. In Mesa, the sheriff responded to an invitation from state lawmakers, plus pointed to crime activity in earlier months.

Arpaio says his operations have scared many immigrants out of the state. But it may be impossible to separate the effects of sweeps from other factors, such as the economy, employer sanctions, anti-smuggling enforcement and stepped-up federal detention policies.

Regardless, supporters say the sheriff deserves praise for rounding up illegal immigrants when virtually no other police agency would do the job.

"I love Joe. He's the kind of guy we need," said Russell Schmunk, 85, of Cave Creek. "We don't need no pansies, guys who slap your wrist. . . . I hope he sweeps it clean, sweeps everybody out."

Others, including civil libertarians and Latino leaders, claim the tactic amounts to unconstitutional racial profiling, which Arpaio denies.

Melissa Jones, an employee at Astro Cleaners on Thomas Road at 32nd Street, said Arpaio's raid there had nothing to do with stopping crime.

"Prejudice. Being racist. That's what it's all about," Jones said. "I think he needs to do his job and get real criminals off the streets. All they (immigrants) are doing is trying to make money for survival."

Guadalupe Mayor Rebecca Jimenez has characterized an April sweep in her community as a media stunt that wound up hassling local residents over minor traffic violations. During that raid, protesters got so worked up that Arpaio departed his command post.

Arpaio subsequently decided to cancel his office's law-enforcement contract with Guadalupe, and the town then sued, arguing he must finish out the contract through 2010.

Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon requested a Justice Department investigation of Arpaio's campaign against illegal immigration. In an August speech, Gordon blasted the Sheriff's Office for undermining law enforcement by arresting undocumented immigrants who are victims of crime.

"If the victim of a sexual assault is in the country illegally, it's more important for us to catch the rapist than to turn the victim over to ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)," the mayor said.

Arpaio, who did not respond to interview requests for this story, has brushed off every criticism.

"The people of this county, poll after poll, said they want local law enforcement to be involved in fighting this increased problem of illegal immigration," he noted in April. "Their voice is what I listen to."


Effects on crime

Arpaio has said the purpose of the sweeps is "crime suppression," and his office's action plans for each sweep echo that mission.


The sheriff's action plan describes crime-suppression sweeps as "a countywide initiative to enhance the safety and security of the citizens." When deputies flooded into Mesa, their orders were simple: "All criminal and traffic violations encountered will be dealt with appropriately. . . . Contacts will only be made with valid probable cause." Arpaio's office cited crime figures as the impetus.

Phoenix police have produced crime stats for areas where the Sheriff's Office launched sweeps in March, targeting precincts near 32nd Street and Thomas Road first, then Cave Creek Road at Bell Road. There were 85 arrests, including 49 suspected illegal immigrants.

According to city records, officers working those beats answered about 10 percent more violent-crime calls in the month after Arpaio's suppression effort than during the month before. However, while post-raid calls for service increased near Cave Creek and Bell, they declined near 32nd Street and Thomas, compared with the same month the year before.

In almost all cities or neighborhoods where sweeps occurred, the crime trends in the month afterward reflected the same trends of months leading up to the sweeps. That would indicate other factors are affecting crime.

Phoenix Police Chief Jack Harris has argued that illegal-immigrant sweeps divert resources from serious crime-fighting and undermine law enforcement by making illegal immigrants fearful of police.

Mesa Police Chief George Gascon publicly fretted that pro- and anti-Arpaio demonstrations might lead to violence.

Chagolla, the Sheriff's Office spokesman, said the sweeps are part of a comprehensive approach to crime that includes illegal immigration. "There is an impact on crime" when one considers the broader approach, which also involves jail screening and the human-smuggling unit, he said.

Many citizens agree with Arpaio.

Slade Grove, owner of Wicked Bakery, who signed a petition asking deputies to raid day-labor hangouts on Cave Creek Road, said he's satisfied even though the shop recently was hit by burglars. "Arpaio sent a message that he was going to enforce the laws," Grove said.

"I'm a former police officer and a former judge, and he's upholding the law," said Stephen West, 69, of Cave Creek.


A business perspective

Down the street from the bakery, several Hispanic laborers loitered in hopes of work.

Alfredo Valenzuela, a landscaper, acknowledged being afraid but said making a living is paramount. Jobs are scarce, he added, with only one contractor stopping by in two days. "It's because of the sheriff," Valenzuela said. "We aren't thieves. We don't break the law. We're nothing more than workers."

Across the street, a security guard prowled the parking lot, shooing laborers away from businesses. "We lost a lot of customers because of men standing all over the place," said Francine Johnson, a trainer at Curves exercise center. "The sheriff seems to be one of the few people willing to do anything."

Johnson conceded that local immigrants hadn't hassled any customers to her knowledge. "They're wonderful people. The majority of them out there are not criminals," she said. "But, you know, when you have a room full of ladies, you'll never convince them they're not going to be assaulted."

Two doors away, a different perspective: "It's not just," said German Leon, owner of Desert Design Group interiors store. "These (immigrants) are peaceful people. . . . Many of their children are born here. Where are they going to go?"

Here, compassion meets practicality,.....but in a somewhat confusing context.

Water stations are a "Hot Button" issue, so this will be interesting to watch evolve.

Link: http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/border/98572.php

Supervisors to discuss funding water stations for illegal immigrants
Officials say $25,000 grant cheaper than recovering bodies
GARRY DUFFY
Tucson Citizen
Funding to maintain water stations for illegal immigrants in the Sonoran Desert outside Tucson will be a topic for action at Tuesday's meeting of the Pima County Board of Supervisors.
The supervisors will consider a $25,000 grant to Humane Borders to assist the nonprofit agency in continuing to place and maintain water stations for illegal border crossers and others in danger of dying of thirst in remote areas.
The board has voted to provide such financial assistance to Humane Borders each year since 2001.
The annual allocation discussion by supervisors draws both supporters of the program and critics.
Backers say Humane Borders' 90-plus water stations save the lives of people walking through the desert, especially in hot weather months where sun exposure and temperatures can kill.
Opponents say the stations serve people entering the United States illegally, and may provide illegal crossers with a false sense of security that they can expect to find the water stations.
Some of the water stations have been vandalized.
County officials point to reasons beyond humanitarian for helping to pay for the water stations: It costs less to do so than the costs to recover, store and repatriate the bodies of illegal crossers who die in the desert.
Save Money! Subscribe to the Tucson Citizen.
Comments on this Story Write a letter to the Editor60 Total Comments � See All Comments
1. Comment by Scott F. (Scotty F) � October 3,2008 @ 4:12PM

Water stations are a way to help the illegal people come here. We shoudl not be paying for illegal activities. People should enter this country legally as my grandparents did. If illegal crossers are worrying about not having water and dying, then they should stop coming here illegally....Humane Borders is not following the law and what they are doing is wrong and part of the problem for the Border Patrol....Can't Humane Borders find something better to do with their time like helping the Border Patrol enforce the law?


2. Comment by Walter C. (2487) � October 3,2008 @ 4:16PM

It disgusts me that as a property taxpayer in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Pima County that my property tax dollars are used by the Board of Stuporvisors to aid and abet lawbreaking.


3. Comment by melvin n. (nivlem) � October 3,2008 @ 4:25PM

The board of supervisors are eating "Idioats"...breakfast of madmen.

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I am not spinning myself up to anything. What i've posted is the truth as to the matter. The issue is you have no knowledge on the subject and are too stupid, to confirm what i state with other lawmen as to the truth.

You have no frontline law enforcement experience with what your posting, yet when i comment on the subject, you tell me that i am wrong. You've proven that you have no knowledge on the subject, regarding LE experience and have even stated such. If i comment diffrently, then you want to argue, i am wrong. Your automatic response to anything is a smartass comment.

It would be like me telling you all about welding or fabrication. I can operate a torch and run a bead with an arc welder with 7018 & 6011. Not to the level and degree of you, i am not going to argue with whatever you say, as being wrong.

In your case your probably correct in what you say regarding metalwork. Now i may confirm it with others in that industry, to confirm what you stated as being correct, but not argue with it cause i don't agree.

Sunday Morning here, Buck,....why don't you drop all the hateful , and vituperative language......?

as far as frontline experience, as previously noted ,...you know nothing about me,......or any of my experience (s), either

Unless you went foward with that horse's ass of a THREAT that you made some time back,.....

You lost an awful lotta' credibility on that stunt,.......

GTC

Mexican traffickers likely to kill in U.S.

............don't worry though,...it's INEVITABLE, un_stopable, and just the way things are,........You've been assured thus,....by "Lone Azzhole",.......the "Due Proccess" priest / holy man.

Hey,....they're just foriegn invaders,....committing felonies,......so everybody lighten up,...and move along ,....nothing to see here,.....yadda ?


.........MAIN thing,...above ALL else is that they are due proccessed,....Lord forbid we'd rock a sinking boat,......and violate any of their "Rights"


Link: http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_10639732

Mexican traffickers likely to kill in U.S.
By Diana Washington Valdez / El Paso Times
Article Launched: 10/05/2008 12:00:00 AM MDT



Read past stories on the violence in Juarez at elpasotimes.com/Juarez
Official says borders don't exist for drug traffickers
EL PASO -- Mexican drug cartels likely will continue to commit revenge killings in the United States in order to protect their interests, said Phil Jordan, retired DEA official and ex-director of the El Paso Intelligence Center.

El Paso law enforcement officials prefer to downplay the prospects of this happening here, but Jordan contends "It's very easy to take a body across the border to Mexico, where you might never find the body again."

Recently, U.S. federal authorities charged Ricardo Godinez-Calleros with kidnapping a man in El Paso earlier this year over an alleged drug debt and transporting him to Ju�rez. Godinez-Calleros is being held without bail at the El Paso County Jail.

In another case in Phoenix, several people wearing SWAT-type uniforms and wielding R-15 rifles with Aimpoint sights broke into a Phoenix home and fired numerous rounds, killing a U.S. citizen.

Phoenix police arrested three of about six suspects, two of them undocumented immigrants from Mexico, who allegedly confessed they were hired by a Mexican drug cartel to carry out a hit.

Jordan said he learned from U.S. federal sources that the Sinaloan


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drug cartel, which is affiliated with Joaquin "Chapo" Guzman, allegedly was behind the attack in Phoenix.
The Phoenix Police Department continues to investigate the slaying.

Mexican authorities said the Sinaloa cartel is battling other factions of the fractured Ju�rez drug cartel for control of the Ju�rez-El Paso corridor.

More than 1,000 people have been killed in Ju�rez this year, most of them victims of drug-related violence.


Diana Washington Valdez may be reached at dvaldezelpasotimes.com; 546-6140.

Again,....not to worry,...."Proffessionals" will handle all of this for us,.......

..they know best,....just ask them.

No wait,....you don't even have to ask,....some run off at the mouth ad-infinitum,.,...assuring all is good,.....

Oh ,.....are we "Confident" yet,....?

The God Lord only knows what kind of demented rant this'll induce,.....

...that's the strange thing about Peanut Galleries,....one just never knows

Link: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20081005/news_1n5violence.html

Border bloodshed likely to worsen, experts warn

Unease about potential for spillover rises in U.S.

By Leslie Berestein and Sandra Dibble
STAFF WRITERS

October 5, 2008

After a particularly violent week in Tijuana that has left 54 dead in a fierce cartel power struggle, experts on both sides of the border fear the worst is yet to come.



MIGUEL CERVANTES
Law enforcement officers inspected several bodies found on a Tijuana street Friday. The string of violence continued yesterday, with 10 more bodies found around the city.
Since early last year, Mexican President Felipe Calder�n has deployed thousands of soldiers and federal police to drug-route battlegrounds such as Baja California, Chihuahua and Michoacan. Experts say it's clear that the recent bloodbath along the border, felt especially hard in Ciudad Juarez and Nuevo Laredo and now increasingly in Tijuana, is the backlash.

In the United States, there's a growing unease about the potential for spillover. Some sectors of the border-region economy have already suffered severe losses as a result of the violence, and others may follow.

�The Mexican government has said that their strategy is to attack the cartels and break them down to a more manageable size,� said political scientist David Shirk, director of the Trans-Border Institute at the University of San Diego. �The problem with breaking cartels up into smaller, supposedly more manageable pieces is that it becomes disorganized crime. You start to have people who are broken off, fractionalized, fighting among each other.�

BLOODY WEEK: BY THE NUMBERS
10: Number of bodies found yesterday in various neighborhoods of Tijuana. Two were decapitated; some were wrapped in blankets and tossed to the side of the road.

8: Bodies found Friday in Tijuana, including two that were decapitated.

9: Bodies found Thursday. Eight men were found together in an empty lot near the center of the city. They had been shot in the head. A ninth was wrapped in a blanket and found near the central bus station.

3: Bodies found in two locations Wednesday.

3: Bodies found Tuesday, including two near a water-utility tank. In addition, three barrels found outside a seafood restaurant were examined to see if they contained acid and human remains.

19: Bodies found in several locations Monday, including 12 near an elementary school. Several had their tongues cut out.

2: Bodies found wrapped in blankets Sunday.

SOURCE: Baja California Attorney General's Office


This destabilization has played out in Tijuana recently in a terrifying string of slayings. On Monday, 12 bodies were dumped outside an elementary school, some with their tongues cut out. A note left with them referred to �blabbermouths� and the Arellano F�lix cartel.

The carnage continued yesterday. Authorities said the bodies of 10 men had been found between midnight and noon in neighborhoods around the city. The dead included two men who had been decapitated. Five were found in a sport utility vehicle that had been reported stolen last week in California.

More than 400 homicides have been recorded this year in Tijuana, which has an estimated population of 1.5 million. The majority of them were drug-related, Mexican authorities say. There were 337 killings citywide in 2007.

By comparison, New Orleans, one of the most violent U.S. cities, which is less than one-fifth the size of Tijuana with about 240,000 people, had 209 homicides in 2007.

The spike in violence has revived long-standing complaints in Mexico that the United States shares the blame through illicit weapons exports to Mexico and the vast appetite for drugs that creates the market in the first place.

�We demand that the United States stop the consumption of drugs,� Baja California Gov. Jos� Guadalupe Osuna said last month. �Unfortunately, as long as there is demand, many people will continue to be hurt and killed.�

But in spite of the death toll, U.S. drug enforcement officials say the disarray they are observing within the cartels is a positive sign. Mexican and U.S. officials have attributed much of the violence in Tijuana to fighting within the Arellano F�lix gang, which has been weakened by the arrests and deaths of its top leadership.



Advertisement�What you have here are two factions of the AFO (Arellano F�lix Organization), and they are feeding off of each other,� said Eileen Zeidler, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration in San Diego. �That's what we want. We want it to be disorganized. If they're not organized, they don't function. We want it to fall apart.�
But this disorganization is likely to lead to more bloodshed in the short term, observers in both countries fear.

�This violence will diminish when there is a new equilibrium� among drug traffickers, said Jorge Chabat, a political analyst from the Mexico City-based research group CIDE.


Widening consequences
The breakup of the cartels could present new challenges. The Calder�n administration's strategy assumes that local and state police will be able to take care of the smaller, less-organized drug traffickers left behind, Shirk said, but �that makes an enormous presumption about the capacity of subnational governments in Mexico.�
Plagued by police corruption, which is largely fueled by low pay and a lack of professional standards, local and state authorities are ill-equipped to handle the potentially more violent, low-level criminal element that could emerge in the wake of the large cartels, Shirk said.

Meanwhile, as the killings continue, the perception of lawlessness in Tijuana � exacerbated last month by two prison riots that claimed at least 23 lives � continues to have repercussions on both sides of the border.

Tijuana's tourism sector has been struggling as American visitors stay away. The reports of violence are only one reason, Mexican officials say, citing the struggling U.S. economy and congested border crossings as principal factors.

Despite the turmoil, Baja California's economy has continued to grow, state officials and business leaders said. The state's growth rate this year is expected to reach 5 percent, just below last year's rate of 6 percent, said Gabriel Posada Gallego, Baja's secretary of economic development.

Support for the maquiladora sector in Tijuana has held steady with about $250 million in new investments this year, said Sa�l GarcNa, president of the city's maquiladora association. Gov. Osuna said the state has added 32,000 jobs this year.

Baja California's business leaders, in the past sharply critical of what they said was government complacency, spoke supportively of the Calder�n administration's self-styled war against the cartels.

�In the past, the government denied the problem,� said Alfonso Alvarez Juan, statewide president of the Business Coordinating Council, a business umbrella group. �Today they are admitting that there is a problem and confronting it.�

But if the violence isn't brought under control, �we'll see effects in 2009 or 2010,� GarcNa said.

Economic experts say it's hard to quantify now, but companies could be put off by the violence and the costs of additional security.

�The biggest costs are the opportunities lost for having a climate of violence and crime,� said Armando Chac�n, director of research for the Mexican Institute for Competitiveness, a nonprofit, nonpartisan think tank in Mexico City.

Places other than Mexico will become more attractive for offshore operations if the violence escalates, said Marnie Cox, the San Diego Association of Governments' chief economist.

�They start to worry about CEOs getting kidnapped,� he said. �This really hurts the investment environment.�

With the loss of investment in Tijuana also comes an unquantifiable loss of revenue to ancillary businesses in the San Diego region, said border business consultant Kenn Morris.

�You are talking about paper suppliers, printing companies, legal services,� he said. �If a company doesn't expand in Tijuana, San Diego loses out on jobs.�

As the bodies have turned up, the pace of life has continued in Tijuana, one of the fastest-growing cities in Mexico. But residents lament the psychological toll of the killings.

�Of course there's an impact, because they're human beings, no matter what group they belong to,� Tijuana Archbishop Rafael Romo Mu�oz said.

With the destabilization of cartels, opportunistic crimes such as kidnappings � often carried out by underemployed and undersupervised cartel foot soldiers � have become commonplace, driving some business owners and professionals north.

While casual visitors to Tijuana haven't been targeted, there has been a series of abductions involving U.S. citizens and legal residents, typically individuals who live and work on both sides of the border. Such incidents spiked last year in Baja California, where the FBI reported 26 abductions of U.S. citizens and legal residents in Tijuana, Rosarito Beach and Ensenada. Fifteen incidents involving U.S. citizens and residents have occurred so far this year. A small number of these abductions have been carried out on U.S. soil, with the victims transported to Mexico, according to the FBI.


Spillover across border
If the drug-related killings on the Mexican side of the border continue, it shouldn't come as a surprise if more violence spills over to the U.S. side because the cartels employ residents of both countries, said Howard Campbell, a border anthropologist and drug-traffic expert at the University Texas in El Paso.
Already, hospital officials in El Paso have had to beef up security when individuals wounded in Juarez's drug war come north for treatment, fearing that cartel hit men will appear to finish them off. So far, that hasn't happened, Campbell said.

While more than 1,000 slayings have been reported this year in Juarez, the majority linked to organized crime, drug-related spillover north of the border has been minimal.

�I do think part of it is luck,� Campbell said. �At some point, the Mexican cartel people may decide, what do they have to fear, really? A lot is their own perception that they can't get away with this stuff in the U.S. But sadly, I think they could. My sources in Juarez are saying the worst of the violence is yet to come.�

Campbell said the Mexican effort is handicapped by law enforcement ties to the cartels at various levels.

�They can't win the war,� Campbell said. �And they have to realize they are not winning it, and that they need to rethink the policy. I'm not saying let the 'narcos' claim victory, but let's rethink the policy and try not to wage war with them, because it is not working.�

Others agree that Calder�n is fighting with a weak hand but commend his efforts, with the violent backlash a necessary evil.

�I think it is a mistake to look at the bloodshed and say, 'Look at what Calder�n is doing; it is not working,' when in fact it may just be the opposite � that it is working in some way, with these unforeseen and unpleasant results,� said Jeffrey Davidow, president of the Institute of the Americas at the University of California San Diego and ambassador to Mexico from 1998 to 2002.

In the past week, Calder�n has introduced two proposals aimed at enhancing his anti-drug efforts, including an initiative intended to weed out corrupt police and a controversial proposal to legalize small amounts of marijuana and cocaine in order to weaken the black market.

The latter is bound to be politically unpopular in both countries. However, with U.S. consumption driving the northbound flow of narcotics, if the Calder�n administration's current strategy fails, the United States will have to find a way to either curb drug use or contemplate some form of legalization, some experts say.

�That is one thing that we know would ultimately kill off these cartels. It would rob them of their oxygen, the enormous profits they make,� said Shirk, who cites the end of Prohibition in 1933 as a possible precedent. �We had a similar situation in the 1920s. That is how we beat the mob.�

These criminals will be dealt with, as criminals when their caught, and will be afforded due process, just like any other criminal.

The courts in this country, along with the constitution set the due process, not LE. You think because LE has to follow the standards set by the courts, we're weak or wrong.

What are you doing about it, other then posting about it on the internet? Are you involved in LE, are you out there making immigration arrests or drug arrests, or assigned to an anti-gang taskforce?

I never stated that these criminals were unstoppable. They have to be identified first. You have no concept as to how these criminal gangs operate, other then what you read and take as the whole truth. These gangs operate as a business, with plans and operational SOP's etc.

Did you know that many of these gangs have former US soldiers & foreign soldiers, who teach such things as leadership and combat tactics etc?

These are not stupid people, the sooner you understand that, the quicker you can understand the task at hand for those that deal with their apprehension.

As i mentioned, i know it pisses you off that the border isn't secure, but it hasn't been secure for at least the last fifty years or more. IIRC, you've lived there for the past twelve years, knowing that the border was in this condition.

The same thing with the drug issue, it's a business, people are making millions & millions of dollars on the drug trade. As soon as LE does one thing, these businessmen will do another.

Your not going to shut the border down 100%, nor are you going to stop the drug traffic into this country at 100% either. If you truly think you will, your fooling yourself.

That's not to state that LE angencies on the border aren't doing the best they can. Which i believe for the most part, they're doing the best they can, considering the situation. The same goes for agencies all across the country. You can only do what you have the resources and funding to allow you to do.

I don't see the folks in DC concerned about it. One of which is your own Sen. from Az. let me ask the question again please, how many times have the citizens of Az. sent McCain to DC?

What's he saying about illegal alien interdiction?

In Nov. he's going to be probably elected POTUS, what's his stand on illegal aliens and border security??

I watched an article on Discovery Ch. the other night about white supreamist in Az. It was about, how they were conducting violence, against illegals and Hispanics in general. Is this the folks you keep referring to, that are going to make the difference?

Hell, one of the LE folks interviewed stated, that Az. LE has to spend so much time with the Nazi skinheads, it takes away from time spent on drug and illegal alien issues. Oh by the way, the white supreamist are a gang also, if you weren't aware.

Why don't you run for either US Rep. or the soon to be vacated US Senate seat from Az. and go to DC, and make grand and glorious changes as to how things are done, on the border??

Crossfire: I just have to wonder where this guy from some friggin' backwoods hilltop in Tennesee come off discussing the problems with Illegals entering AZ. He really doesn't have a clue. I haven't lived in Tucson for 6 or 7 years now, but I REMEMBER the problems, the crime and the home breakins. You have many time backed up what you say with FACTS and newspaper articles etc. This Butthead, or maybe he is Bevis is just trying to spout off his idiotic, never been there drivel off as fact. I have lived there for 26 years or so, I KNOW what it is like. I had bars installed on my windows as so many other have done to safeguard themselves. I had to have an alarm system installed also, just to feel safe if I had to leave my wife or kids alone when I was gone.
Whenever Mr. Tennessee moves to Tucson or Sierra Vista or Nogalas, at that point I might begin to believe his BS.
Fight on, Amigo

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Do you think they all stay in Az.?? No they come to Tn. and other parts of the SE to work and live here also, and we have to deal with them.

Oh, by the way, i have been on the border in the El Paso sector many times. I know it's Tx. but the issues are the same.

I have a friend who i served in the Army with, who's a supervisory USBP agent in the EP sector. I've gone and visited him many times and have ridden along with him and have seen it first hand. I also saw it with him, when he worked for El Paso PD, before going to the USBP. Besides i talk to him at least twice monthly. Along with pulling current LE data up through USBP intell. links.

Hell, Crossfire isn't doing any fight, he's just posting stuff on the internet. I bet that really sets the Mex. gangs and drug dealers back.

I see that you moved away from the border yourself dipstick, so you can't say a whole lot, and moved to NY, land of Hillary Clinton.

It might be the border states problem, but it filters into the rest of the nation. Of course drugs interdicted on Tn. interstates, that started from Mexico and crossed through border states into heart of the country, is no ones concern, then the border states, right?

But i don't see the rest of the nation really worried about it, again what's McCain's & Bambam's view, amnesty???

Well. from a dipstick to a super moron, I moved to NY only to care for my 92 year old Father and 89 Year old Mother. I lived in Tucson for more than half my life so I KNOW what is going on.

My Father has Alzheimers in the final stages and she is still as sharp as a tack. I really didn't want to move from Tucson, I guess, it is simply a matter of caring for my folks that NEEDED my help was MORE important than what I personally wanted at the time. I will go back to AZ when it is possible.
So, tell me, how many Illegals do YOU have living in your little corner of the world? 1000's? 100's? 10 maybe?
Just so you know 3 of my close friends were Mexicans, kinda like knowing a Black person HuH? It doesn't count for anything in a mind like yours. It is kind of like your statement "I know someone in the BP's". I am impressed, you have BEEN to the Border, So you know KNOW ALL that is important, you are our local Tennessee expert on the Illegal immigrant problems? What a laugh. MOVE to the area and see if you feel the same way.
To try to finish up, you have NO fears of Illegals THERE as damn few want to move to Tennessee, most of the illegals hang out near the border areas, steal, rape and commit other crimes. Like I said, shut up, move down here with your family and daughters and see what you think when your eyes are finally really opened.
Oh, McCain, is a Politician, what would you expect from one? Now, go suck up some more Tennesse sour mash and go to bed.

I think you'ld actually be surprised to the number of illegals who move to Tn. and the SE in general.

This due to the large amount of agricultural related work available, such as chicken raising & processing, nursery farms and other Ag. businesses.

This along with an industrial market that has moved out of the NE and into the SE. Such things as carpet mills and textile mills, auto plants that require many employees who work for subcontractors to make parts for the auto plants.

This along with an increased economy, which boomed in the housing market and general construction, requiring labor in the building trades.

If you check you'll see that some of the fastest growing counties in the nation are in the SE, one of which is in this state.

Oh! by the way, we do make some of the finest sourmash whiskey in the world, don't we.