Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders TC QLA - accuracy aid or accuracy inhibitor?

Now, why not use either MMPs or PRs .357/45 sabot and put a .358 bullet down the bore shoot a rifle bullet out of that charcoal burner.


Been done for several years already, and not only out of the .45, but also the .50. With a great deal of accuracy too.

All thanks to Del Ramsey and his sabot genius. One reason today's 1 -20 will work with .45.

And the depth of the rifling has a little to do with it also.

My 1:20 twist Encore barrel wasn't bad because of the twist, it was just plain BAD. Washboard rifling and QLA that was surely way off center.

The G2 barrel I had was deep cut grooves, and required charges of 60 to 70 gr. equivalent charges for averages of 3 to 4 inches at 100 unless air temps were high, or barrel warm. Then it required further reduction of powder charges.

Worst pile of destroyed sabots I've ever seen. No consistency at all in their appearance. Everything from completely burnt through base or side of base, to about any kind of petal destruction you can imagine. It appeared those sabots were getting ripped/burnt badly with the higher equivalents of powder charges.

Groups with T/C maxis ran about 3 to 4 at 100 also, and required the light charges for that. Finally give up on it. Junked the barrel. What with all of the hoopla of replacing barrels, not replacing barrels, some guys not having issues, predominately most here having issues, the scuttlebutt here pretty much killed any sales for the G2 .45 ML here for a good while. Ended up with a 50 cal. on mine. Greater selection of components, and it handles the .357 Duplex sabots very well.

I was waiting for you to join in on this thread, you shoot a fair amount of lead boolits if I recall.

Doc

TC is about selling muzzleloaders. The biggest market for selling muzzleloaders is the chap that wants to send a couple pellets and sabot down the tube as easily and maintenance free as possible. They market the QLA as easy to load - and that makes sense for the person that's going to use his/her muzzleloader once or twice a year. Same reason for the speed breech - easy to clean etc. For TC, it's simple numbers. Easy to use & maintain, means more sales. QLA is just another tool in the toolbox for them.

Now, I've heard similar complaints on the conicals not flying where they're supposed to fly - that flat out sucks. I've never run a conical down the tube of any of my muzzleloaders so I can't speak to the cure for that. But, like Doctor_Encore stated, I had a bad QLA on my brand spankin' new Triumph and they sent me, not just a new barrel, they sent me a new GUN. And, did so in less than a week. (help from Doc Encore didn't hurt ) In my eyes, yes, my eyes, the Triumph is the perfect muzzleloader - lightweight, easy maintenance, simple/rugged styling and the one they sent me is wonderfully accurate. My solution, if they weren't going to help me on the QLA was to have it cut off, I liked the rest of the package too much to say buh-bye.

If it's not shooting, send it in, especially now, in the off-season where you don't have to sweat an upcoming hunting trip or something.

sk

Skane -

You 'n' Doc 'bout got me convinced to call TC. I guess I knew I should do that, sometimes I just gotta be clubbed upside the head with the obvious.

Not a huge rush, I won't have a ML tag again 'til 2009, if I use the .58 it'll be in regular rifle season. (I do that sometimes just because I feel like it.)

Tom

Most interesting. Maybe I'm going to end up with a custom sooner than I thought. I was really counting on getting these to shoot. Maybe, I'll get lucky and mine will be "internally perfect." That never happens to me.

Without a doubt the pressure curve and steel come into play. I still think the fast twist is key though to shooting a .358 200-225gr bullet. I know my 30 twist 45s will shoot the lights out with a 200gr .40 bullet. Shove a .358 of any flavor down em and accuracy goes WAY south. Gotta be the twist. Look at what most of the .358 rifles (Rems, Wins, Whelens...) are at, 14-18 twist.

When Toby did some initial testing with the .357/195gr Dead Center he got mediocre groups at best out of his test rifel. Some flavor of a Knight 50 with a 28 twist I believe. After switching to a rifle with a 22 twist, groups shrank dramaticaly.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Cecil is ONLY shooting his bullets, all lead. Can't blame him really. They are a great product and he's a very knowledgable guy. However, the dynamics involved with a jacketed bullet are going to be VERY different. They're going to obturate much less with a stiff charge and will stand up to considerably more fps.

So let's assume that when these rifles show up, they're not cut worth a darned and the rifling sucks.

Given that they are five+ years old, but still NIB, what's the chances of TC standing behind them and rebarreling them for me to the 28 twist specs that they switched these rifles to?

remseven, do you personally have any experience shooting anything other than the DC (other .358 rifle bullets) out of a 45? If so, what twist worked for you. The only guy I know who is doing it with STELLER results is using the 20 twist TC Super XR 45 Black Diamond.

I will say that TC's warranty service is excellent and they stand behind their products generally even beyond reason. At least that was the case before S&W bought them - I would hope it still is.

Remseven outlined his difficulty with a G2 muzzy barrel, my G2 in .45 has been a delight (aside from kicking the snot out of me) from day one. Excellent barrel. And I see that as reflective of a lack of consistency of product that should most definitely be addressed. The very BEST warranty is one that is never needed.

Brief as per your questions, got to get hay equipment ready to go today.

NimroRx - I'm fairly certain what was wrong with my G2 1st barrel: A combination of things = 1/20 twist cut too deep. sabots not suitable for high pressure charges, and the lack of components available at the time to experiment with different combinations for .45cal. The bore seemed to be smooth enough and cleaned well.

As for the rifles you mentioned I would have no idea to their performance. I did buy 3 of the Wal-Mart blister pack deals for friends I knew who wanted the black diamond (not the XR version). This from three seasons ago. they were .50's and shoot sabots very well.

The G2 duplex I shot in the .50 cal. barrel, during the time frame Precision first offered them. The 195 shoots the best, and carries more energy. The first group with that barrel was one of those spooky things you occasionally get with a OTB product. I had to set a backer paper behind the firt target to prove to myself what I was seeing with three shot groups. This with a 2X8 at a 100. Don't recall ever checking twist, was no need too, but it is shallow rifling cut visually apparent. And the sabots for it were the experimental configuration that Del Ramsey formulated for some guys researching for a .45 and .50 sabot at high pressure, or flatter shooting powder charges. Believe Del found away to harden them for the higher pressure, or simply a plastic recipe that would work. I really have no idea how they perform in a .45 cal. fast twist.

As per your rifes, you might compare the rifling depth to your buddies barrel to see any difference. It is visbile to the naked eye if clean barrel. Would suggest if you think your barrels OK, to start loads in the neighborhood of your buddies for comparison.

The only projectile components available to try at the tme of the 1st G2 barrel, were limited to choice. It appeared mostly to me sabots were the critical point for failure of the system to be accurate, and the fast twist had a secondary bearing on the destruction of sabots.

Underclocked is right about the recoil. The .45 will knock the snot out of your with those "magnum" charges in the .45. Another reason I put the .50 on the G2. I have a Gonic barrel for it, and can not keep from splitting forearms. Even steel-bedded forearm, and still splits the wood portion.

Hope this made clear on your questions, and your project works out OK!!!

I have 2 50 cal T/C rifles with QLA - a Thunderhawk and an Omega. The Thunderhawk which I think has a 1-38" twist shoots lead conicals extremely well. The Omega shoots sabots extremely well but is not particularly good with lead conicals. I have been shooting 100 Gr charges of loose 777 ffg in both rifles.

I've had other T/C rifles and have never had one that wouldn't shoot something well whether it was a conical, sabot ot ball.