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Thinking of getting a smallish Springer for pheasants and ducks, as well as family time.
Give me the pros/cons.
We have had a Brittany for the last decade, but lost her to cancer.
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Campfire Oracle
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Springers on the whole are a lot more 'hyper' than Brits... it can be avoided with careful temperament testing and selection. They are pretty nice little dogs, but in the spanial types, Im a Brit fan...couldnt find a nicer family dog I don't think.
Last edited by ingwe; 07/12/15.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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I looked at both and ended up with wired hair griff by accident. She is a tad over 40 lbs
Great disposition, very friendly towards other dogs, children etc. driven, smart dog. Only 8 months doing water retrievals, holding point, appears to have a great nose, listens well. Does good in crate. I take her everywhere with me.
Just another option ; )
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Thinking of getting a smallish Springer for pheasants and ducks, as well as family time.
Give me the pros/cons.
We have had a Brittany for the last decade, but lost her to cancer. Well, you are talking my language here DD............ We ran our Britts pretty hard for 40 years, including FTs before HB handling came into the picture. Wonderful choice for a first time PD owner/trainer. But when we moved to Northern Michigan, we were advised that FDs did better work in the grouse woods. We settled on FB English Cockers but looked at a bunch of Springers and we hunt over ESS every year, both up here and Out West. There is a much bigger selection among ESS breeders/litters.Springers are bigger, stronger and faster then the field Cockers. And Out West that is a GOOD THING. One caution, some of the FT bred ESS run a little too HOT ie hard to rein in, for most amateur handlers. Pine Shadows in MN has a good reputation for well bred pups with all the necessary health certifications (OFA, CERF, PFK) Good luck and new puppy pictures are a must. NB
NRA Life Member "Use Enough Gun"- Robert Ruark
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Campfire Ranger
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I really want a close-working, tight-sticking, "cold" dog not hot runner, FLUSHER, that loves water retrieves too. My Britt was most of that (or I trained her to be) except as a pointer.
Is there such a thing in Springers?
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I really want a close-working, tight-sticking, "cold" dog not hot runner, FLUSHER, that loves water retrieves too. My Britt was most of that (or I trained her to be) except as a pointer.
Is there such a thing in Springers? Absolutely. You already know that the one thing a FD "MUST DO", is to hunt within gun range all the time. Most ESS take to water retrieves very readily. I have seen ESS who were "too much dog" ie hunted too wide and too far ahead. A DISASTER esp for an amateur trainer. Two ESS breeder/trainers in your neck of the woods are: Tom Ness at Oahe Knls and Dan Murray at Absolute Gun Dogs. If those guys dont have what you are looking for, they will know who does. Both guys have FBECS also and explain/ show you the differences. A little smaller and better suited in the grouse woods IMHO.
NRA Life Member "Use Enough Gun"- Robert Ruark
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Thanks for the leads. I will look for those two breeders.
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I had an oustanding springer that gave me 12 great seasons on wild pheasants. I then went to a Boykin for12 more great years. The Boykin was a much better waterfowl dog and a better family pet. The springer gets my vote on pheasants but by a slim margin. Both dogs worked close and would "hup" on a single whistle blast while chaising a runner. My thanks to Kenneth Roebuck for his book, Gun dog training, spaniels and retrievers. If you can find it used, I suggest grabbing a copy.
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I will look for that book. I've read up on the Boykins a bit. What made it a better duck dog? What made it a better family pet? Those two traits are a large part of what I'm looking for.
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The Boykin was simply a more loving dog. The springer was birds and birds on a 24/7 basis. I placed in several of the timed pheasant hunting contests with the springer. She was a relentless hunter. The Boykin could stand much colder water and was a better swimmer. If I wanted a an upland hunter only, I would get a springer. The combination dog nod would go to the Boykin. The pet vote is 100% Boykin. I went to great lenghts to get the Boykin. Seems like I lived on the wrong side of the mason dixon line. Message me if you want breeder info. I still greatly miss both dogs and always will.
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Campfire Ranger
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There definitely are hot Springers from the top field trial breeders. However, in the FT game they put them down for a short run against another Dog and that is how they are trained and they burn it up.
Get one from that kind of stock and the early years may be a little trying. Had one like that with the best nose on a Bird Dog I've ever had. Took awhile, but once he learned to pace himself and figured out the trilogy of Dog, Bird, gun he was a joy to hunt over. Hunt them 4-5 hours at a time and they will eventually learn to pace themselves.
I'll take a hot one with a hot nose every day if you are looking for a bird finder that is serious about what they do. They are the professionals.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Then be truthful with yourself. If you are a serious Bird hunter who is going to put the Dog into a lot of Birds and often, then go for the best you can find.
It takes a lot of Birds to have any Dog reach what they can be and the great ones deserve the chance.
If your are not, then a slower Dog with less pure drive may be what is best for you.
I agree with Natty Bumpo, the EC may be a little better in the Grouse woods, and tomorrow will be picking up a new 4 month old EC pup. Coming out of Goergia stock that is mainly used as pick-up for Quail.
Last edited by battue; 07/13/15.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Harry, are you getting a male or a female? Do you have a preference?
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I agree with Natty Bumpo, the EC may be a little better in the Grouse woods, and tomorrow will be picking up a new 4 month old EC pup. Coming out of Goergia stock that is mainly used as pick-up for Quail. battue, You may have seen that little blue roan FBECS standing up on the seat of a quail wagon down South somewhere on the cover of Shooting Sportsman mag, a few years ago?? Apparently field Cockers are being used more and more on the quail plantations down South. There was a nice article therein. PICS of your new EC pup are a MUST! NB
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While I agree that certain lines of Springers can run Hot, I also know they(for the most part) don't need to. After over 30 yrs of breeding Field Bred Springers I think I can safely say it lies mostly in their early training and fiels experience. You can slow a dog down much easier than you can speed it up. I have played in both worlds titling 5 dogs in the competition game and then switching the same dogs and their offspring to be 'personal' gundogs. These dogs were and still are from top field trial lines but when I start them I use a slower more methodical method than I would with a trial prospect and it works very well. Obedience training Hup(sit/stay) down come and "with me" ( I do not teach a flushing dog to heel but to stay close within the length of a medium length lead) A flushing dog's place is in front of you not behind and IMO heel encourages a dog to be sticky. The "with me command allows the dog to quest within a small circle around me but under control. Once a spaniel is 'controllable' it will work well in a waterfowl blind and retrieve dicks and geese all day. My suggestion would be to get the following video, follow it and you will have a spaniel that is a pleasure to work with. Good Luck, enjoy the ride. LJ http://www.amazon.com/Training-Spaniels-Gun-Dog-Staff/dp/B0013QTSQ2
Last edited by FoxtonGundogs; 07/14/15.
BORN to HUNT
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Campfire Ranger
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Harry, are you getting a male or a female? Do you have a preference? Give me my druthers and it would be a female. Less worries of them running off and screwing the neighbors cat. You have that heat problem, but I'm not a breeder. So get them fixed and you also eliminate some health issues down the line. As far as hot Springers, as mentioned one of mine was. However, out of the field and in the house, after the first year he was pretty laid back. Put him in the field and hooked up his hot wire. Thing I've noticed in the 5 Springers/Cockers I've had is the hot ones have the hottest nose. The cooler they get, the softer they are on the flush. A Great one wants to catch the Bird before it gets airborne.
Last edited by battue; 07/14/15.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Thanks guys. This is very helpful info. At this point we are leaning toward a field-bred English Cocker with a nearby breeder.
Anything that you want to add about English Cockers?
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My English Springer is hyper as hell, sure would be nice if she had a settle down mode in the house so most of the time she lives outside. Superb hunter but just vibrates. Magnum_Man
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Campfire Ranger
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Harry, are you getting a male or a female? Do you have a preference? Give me my druthers and it would be a female. Less worries of them running off and screwing the neighbors cat. You have that heat problem, but I'm not a breeder. So get them fixed and you also eliminate some health issues down the line. I'll speak up for the opposing camp here. I've owned 3 males and 1 bitch, spent several years in two ESS field trial clubs, which gave me a LOT of exposure to different dogs/handlers. Not to mention hunting with a couple of gundog partners who also had Springers. In the end I'd have to say that I prefer hunting over males. They tend to be bigger and heavier in the shoulders, which helps them bust through heavy cover (which is a problem in many of my favorite coverts) and they tend to hunt more aggressively in general. I've noticed no real difference in tractability between males and females. As far as hot Springers, as mentioned one of mine was. However, out of the field and in the house, after the first year he was pretty laid back. Put him in the field and hooked up his hot wire.
Thing I've noticed in the 5 Springers/Cockers I've had is the hot ones have the hottest nose. The cooler they get, the softer they are on the flush. A Great one wants to catch the Bird before it gets airborne. Agreed. Hot dogs from a hot bloodline can be trained to be steady, to not run fencelines, etc, but it's impossible to get a slow dog run hotter. One other kennel you might want to look at is Lighthouse Kennels in Wisconsin. Jason is a very good trainer, field-trailer and hunter. His dogs produce wonderful pups; I've had one and would love to have another.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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