|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 738
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 738 |
MD: Thank You for you comments. I've loaded 145 grain Speer SPs for my Wifey's 7x57. This is for Caribou hunting, but frankly, I wonder if that's the best choice, especially should we run into a BAR. Smitty of the North
No amount of planning will ever replace Dumb Luck.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 738
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 738 |
gitano: Your conclusions are based on insufficient data, and perhaps a need to toot your own horn. Smitty of the North
No amount of planning will ever replace Dumb Luck.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,059
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,059 |
John,
The advantage I see the .308 having over the 7mm Mauser is this: in the 7mm Mauser I guess that 140-150 grain bullets are commonly use. When compare to the .308Win using 180 grain bullets, the advantages I see are: about 20% great bullet weight/(mass?), and the .30cal having a greater frontal area, about ~18/19% over the 7mm calibers. This might not be that big a difference with deer, but shouldn't it provide a little better margin of error, given similar bullet construction, on larger game??? Just my thoughts said aloud, so I could be wrong and I'm open to correction.
I agree that the difference between the 7mm bullets and .270 caliber bullets is insignificant. About 5% greater frontal area and 5% great bullet weight....not that significant of a difference in my opinion.
I agree that bullet construction, especially in the premium bullets, helps the sub 30cal bullets in game larger than deer. But the 30 cal bullets get the same help from premiums bullets as well. Just some rambling thoughts.
Leo
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 769
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 769 |
Jack's wife as far as I can tell from my notes actually owned and shot a 257 roberts more than the 7x57. When I get home tonight I would be more than happy to check this for everyone. Not a lot of difference as this is simply a necked down 7x57 but I thought it was worth noting as some other posters had noted that they purchased 7x57's for their wives because Jack did the same. Both are great rounds and I am in the process of building a 7x57 for my wife as we speak. They are truly a dream to shoot.
James
Jim
"The skillful woodsman who knows his game, and who gets close, can keep himself in venison or moose meat with a rifle most of us would consider entirely inadequate." - Jack O'Connor
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 181
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 181 |
I've found the thread interesting 'cause I'm looking to buy, and have been leaning towards a .308... I'm also trying to educate myself about comparable cartridges (including 7x57)
Gitano... you think the .308 has better knock down power than the 7x57 because of your experience with your wife's 7x57 compared to other calibers (including .308) on caribou. Fair enough.
Just wondering whether it was always your wife who was shouldering the 7x57?
I don't mean to imply that your wife is a poor shot or anything like that. Maybe because she's less experienced than you, she might be more inclined to take the classic double lung/heart shot like you described in your story. G???_Esq said what I was thinking, there was a big difference in bullet placement for the 2 shots you described... I'm not that experienced of a hunter either. The handful of deer I've shot (so far) have all been heart or double lung shots... Exactly where I intended it to go, 2 holes and no wasted meat. Not one has been a bang flop. They've travelled between 15 and 75 yards before expiring (no second shots needed). I haven't shot a deer with either .308 or 7x57 so I don't know if the effects would've been more immediate with another cartridge (but I doubt it). The deer that I've seen that have gone flop (other hunters) always have involved a shoulder or something other than just through the boiler room. So far, that's the common feature, not the caliber.
From the "bang flop" thread it seemed that some shooters either purposely go through the shoulder (a bit in front of where I've been shootin' them) or a bit higher on the broadside shot (closer to spine) to a get more immediate response. Anyway, I wonder whether the bullet placement preferred by the shooter has something to do with your observations (?). Or maybe like in the story... she consistently took the animals that were broadside (="easier" ?) , and you took the tougher quartering shots (more likely involving a shoulder) ?
You think it could be a factor?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 215
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 215 |
I wonder if anybody could really tell any substantial difference at all between the cartridges discussed. They are all very similar.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,916
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,916 |
Rude - ain't there... Its 'existence' lies indeed in the way you read it.
I believe it was Mule Deer that wrote here at the campfire at one time and this is not a quote. It is difficult at times to type to please the masses. Personally I enjoyed reading your reply and the additional cup of coffee.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,765
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,765 |
I too grew up reading the old writers. I enjoyed them all for different reasons. I felt jack had the best sense of humor and was a Master with words. I also thought he was very practical. I liked Elmer for his brash boldness, but I suspect a lot of that came from "Littleman syndrome". He gave great advice with the big, heavy bullets, especially in timber. But it was so obvious the problems he ran into were bullet 'design" not caliber. Those big bullets either didn't open well at distance or Military Ball ammo in the 30-06 for elk? yet, the .44 magnum handgun was peaches for 600yd mule deer...granted, a finishing shot. Then pushing those older steel jacketed .333 cals too fast and them them splitting/fragmenting. I did get a chuckle how he "almost" shot several guys he called out...it was "so close"...I guess he did, but it sure sounded like BS to me. But I have used several of those medium calibers with good, modern bullets and man oh man, they DO work well on bigger game. The good Col was always a horse's behind, but hey, I have met many guys just like him, growing up in East Texas. I think he was a pretty good shot, never followed the Matches he mentions, etc. He himself hated the 30-06 yet loved the 8mm caliber. He was definitely a very prideful man, but, I still enjoy his writings. They were all just human beings, flawed and yet each saw life from their own perspectives. It makes a good overview, to me. I would have liked to have met them all, but my favorite was always Jack, not because of the .270, but the writings about the 30-06 and the 7x57 just thrilled me more, oh yeah, and the .375 H&h.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,269 Likes: 7
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,269 Likes: 7 |
No experience with the 7x57 but my primary rifle is chambered in 7mm-08 Rem. From what I've read there isn't much difference between the two, especially for a handloader.
I've never hunted caribou but I hear they're smaller than elk. The two bull elk I've killed with the 7mm-08 went an average of zero yards after the shot. A single 140 gr Partition apiece. My dad used a single 140 gr Accubond on his big 5x5 a couple of years ago, but it went 90 feet before it died.
I have a hard time believing there's a nickel's worth of difference between the .308 and the 7mm-08. It's tough to die faster than DRT and I'm okay with 90 feet.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547 Join date 3/09/2001
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,974 Likes: 2
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,974 Likes: 2 |
I also grew up with the writings of JOC, Elmer Keith and others. I have rifles chambered in many different calibers but there are more in 7X57 than anything else combined and 284 diameter reigns supreme in the safe with a 280 and a couple of 7MM-08 to keep the 7x57's company. I load all my own ammo and an animal hit in the right spot with either a 140 gr .284 diameter, 130 .270 or 150gr 30 cal isn't going far and after all dead is dead. My 270's and 308 haven't been in the field for a very long time because I always seem drawn to one of the 7x57's.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,653
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,653 |
Feel free to add to the 7x57 references, it would be appreciated.
7X57 Mauser References
2015 - Guns Magazine, May, The Magnificent 7x57 Mauser, John Barsness
2015 - Sporting Shooter Magazine, Handloading the 7x57 Mauser, Nick Harvey
2014 - Rifle Magazine #273, March, Ruger 7x57mm Mauser, Dave Scovill
2014 - Handloader #289, April, 7x57 Mauser Part II, Gil Sengel
2012 - African Expedition, Mauser's 7mm, Koos Barnard
2012 - Rifle Magazine, Fall 2012 Special Edition, 7X57mm Mauser, Dave Scovill
Rifle Magazine, Fall 2012 Special Edition, Contemporaries of the 7x57, Mike Venturino
Rifle Magazine, Fall 2012 Special Edition, The 7mm Comes Full Circle, John Haviland
Rifle Magazine, Fall 2012 Special Edition, Seven Deadly Millimeters, Ron Spomer
Rifle Magazine, Fall 2012 Special Edition, The Legacy of the 7x57, John Barsness
Rifle Magazine, Fall 2012 Special Edition, The Commercial Sevens, Mike Venturino
2010 – New Zealand Guns and Hunting, #119, July/August, The 7X57 Stalking Rifle, Garry Keown
2010 – New Zealand Guns and Hunting, #118, May/June, The 7X57 – the 7mm Mauser and the 275 Rigby, Garry Keown
2009 – American Rifleman, November, A Perfectly Delightful Cartridge – 7x57 mm Mauser, Jim Wilson
2008 – Handloader, #252, April/May, 7x57 Mauser - The “First” 7mm, John Haviland
2007 – Handloader, #246, April/May, 7x57mm Mauser – The Original 7mm, John Barsness
2004 – Handloader, #231, October/November, 7x57mm Mauser – Accolades from an admirer, Steve Gash
2001 – Handloader, #211, June/July, 7x57mm Mauser – The grand, old 7mm, Stan Trzonec
2000 – Handloader, #206, August/September, 7mm’s – The all-American standard, John Barsness
1999 – American Rifleman, February, 7x57mm Mauser in Modern Rifles, Edward A. Matunas
1995 – Handloader, February 1995, Modern Powders in the 7x57, Ken Waters
1992 – Game Loads And Practical Ballistics For the American Hunter, (see index), Bob Hagel
1991-Guns and Ammo, 1991, 7mm Mauser…Smallbore Blockbuster!, Ross Seyfried
1991 – Rifle, #137, September/October, The 7mm Mauser, Ludwig Olson
1990-American Rifleman, April, 1990, John Rigby & Co., Finn Aagaard
1989 – Nosler Reloading Manual, The 7x57 Mauser, Finn Aagaard
1986-American Rifleman, Nov. 1986, The 7x57 Mauser, Finn Aagaard
1986-Guns, July, 1986, Know Your Hunting Cartridges: The 7mm Mauser, Ed Matunas
1984 – Outdoor Life, March, The 7x57 Mauser, Jim Carmichael
1983 – Handloader, #102, March/April, light hunting bullets in the 7x57mm, Mike Venturino
1982 – Rifle, #83, September/October, Model 70 Featherweight – 7x57mm, Bob Hagel
1982 – Handloader #95, January/February, still popular…7mm Mauser, Ken Waters
1977 – Handloader, #66, March/ April, Super velocities in ONE 7x57, Dennis Hall
1974 – Gun Digest, #28, Forty Years with the Little 7mm, Jack O’Connor
1976 – Guns & Ammo, November 1976, 7x57 Mauser, Les Bowman
1973 – Sports Afield, August, The Welterweight Rifle With The Heavyweight Punch, John Jobson
1973 – Rifle, #27, May/June, Ruger 77 7x57---, Bob Hagel
1970 – The Hunting Rifle, Big Punch in Little Case, Jack O’Connor
1968 – Handloader, # 16, November/December, Cartridge of the Month, 7mm Mauser, (Staff)
1968 – Handloader, September, The 7x57 Mauser, Ken Waters
1967- Gun Digest 1967, The Mysterious Seven, Robert Sherwood
1964 – The Rifle Book, The All-Around Rifle (7x57), Jack O’Connor
1948 – Outdoor Life, October, Arms and Ammunition – The 7mm is great stuff for most big game. Jack O’Connor
You're Welcome At My Fire Anytime
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,653
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,653 |
Eleanor O'Connor's 7x57 Eleanor's 7x57 and 30-06
You're Welcome At My Fire Anytime
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,891
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,891 |
In the 308 vs 7x57 debate I’ll agree with MD and say the difference on game is negligible and that can be expanded to a whole bunch of other medium capacity rounds that throw 140- 180 gr projectiles from .26 cal to 32 caliber. Though I currently own a 7x57 and have owned if I recall 3 others and like the cartridgefine I too would go with a 308 if starting from scratch. Why well stipulating performance is similar I have found that the 7x57 usually takes some load tweaking to get them to shoot acceptably. The 308 however is usually a pretty decent shooter out of the box with a variety of loads bothfactory and hand loaded. So cheaper ammo off the shelf, larger selection, less finicky, comparable recoil and performance. What’s not to like?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 488
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 488 |
Maybe I’ll use wooly worms for elk next year.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
Eleanor O'Connor's 7x57 Eleanor's 7x57 and 30-06 W O W- H O L Y S M O K E! ! There's a LOT of heritage right there. Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,765
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,765 |
Beautiful rifles...I really love the Open wrists.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 953
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 953 |
RoundOak those are great pictures of some sweet rifle craftsmanship. What power and brand is the scope on the 7x57? Gitian comparing a double lung 100 yd run off to a bang flop with a full shoulder break down shot using a page of well written dialog still leaves you with an apple vs an orange...... no sarcasm intended. I enjoyed the story of your wife's 7x57 hunt. Most guys I see looking for the, drop in its tracks with no meat loss, go for a less well thought of shot that works most of the time. Ill take the shoulder meat loss after seeing the "does not always work" aspect of the other choice a few times.
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,243 Likes: 11
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,243 Likes: 11 |
Amazing how Eleanor and Jack hunted with low powered glass without a Hubble objective, variable power, twisting turrets or rangefinders.
DF
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,280 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,280 Likes: 3 |
Amazing how Eleanor and Jack hunted with low powered glass without a Hubble objective, variable power, twisting turrets or rangefinders.
DF I was thinking the same thing myself.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,974 Likes: 2
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,974 Likes: 2 |
I would have a hard time finding those fine cross hairs against a dark background. I like old rifles (pre64 M70's) but modern glass is a blessing.
|
|
|
|
528 members (12344mag, 10gaugeman, 117LBS, 1234, 1beaver_shooter, 06hunter59, 52 invisible),
2,734
guests, and
1,264
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,194,793
Posts18,536,393
Members74,041
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|