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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
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Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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That 230 grain Flat Point is definitely the king of penetration for the ACP... ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/jaycocreek/RealGuns45acp.jpg) Jayco
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Sorry, but I just don't get the need for +P in a .45 ACP; since when has it been under-powered?
Too me, all you're getting is significantly more abuse to your pistol, probably reduced reliability, increased recoil, muzzle blast, etc...All for what? MAYBE another 100fps? Like the guy hit with it will EVER notice that extra 100fps.
Look, in .38 Special +P makes a lot of sense. In 9mm some can make a case where +P makes some sense (I don't see it); but you're just not going to convince me that the .45 ACP will benefit from +P. Look at all the undesirable side effects you get for that marginal increase in velocity.
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Joined: Dec 2000
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
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Your experience with the 45 ACP way outshines mine but I found it interesting my opinion on the subject mirrors your own. I just do not see the need. The 1911 has been knocking men down and keeping them down for a hundred years.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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In the case of the Buffalo Bore loads, I think it's a matter of attempting to make the .45acp a better hunting load. I dunno whether that works out or not...
As far as personal defense against humans....I don't see the need for +p or even premium loads in the .45acp.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
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A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Might as well have been a flatpoint?
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
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Kevin and Scott, I agree, as a man stopper the standard velocity 230 grain hard ball or hollow point is all that's needed.
What I was looking at is the 1911 platform for hunting especially hogs if they ever get up this way. There are a number of forums dedicated to hog hunting and many hunters prefer the Hornady .230 grain XTP over the Buffalo Bore 230 flat point hard ball. As one hunter put it feral hogs aren't rhinos nor are they armoured plated. The next most popular rounds in rifles are the .223 and 6.8SPC neither ones are a power house but they seem to drop hogs just fine.
One could always move up to the .460 Rowland or .45 Super but I think the .45 ACP +P would work just fine on most varmints including hogs.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Nice shot! I swore I would never own another 1911 in 45ACP, but now...
It is good to know that a wide range of ammo exists that make the 45ACP more versatile.
"Knowledge is good"
� Emil Faber
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The 45 ACP works better for hunting than most give it credit for . If it will drop a 200 lb plus man then it will drop a 200 to 250 pound hog or a 100 lb Whitetail.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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Kevin and Scott, I agree, as a man stopper the standard velocity 230 grain hard ball or hollow point is all that's needed.
What I was looking at is the 1911 platform for hunting especially hogs if they ever get up this way. There are a number of forums dedicated to hog hunting and many hunters prefer the Hornady .230 grain XTP over the Buffalo Bore 230 flat point hard ball. As one hunter put it feral hogs aren't rhinos nor are they armoured plated. The next most popular rounds in rifles are the .223 and 6.8SPC neither ones are a power house but they seem to drop hogs just fine.
One could always move up to the .460 Rowland or .45 Super but I think the .45 ACP +P would work just fine on most varmints including hogs. Still no need to go +P, like I said, the additional 100fps won't really get you anything. I've killed hogs with a 124 grain 9mm (280 pounder IIRC), and most everything on up. When you're handgun hunting hogs typically ranges are very close, so it's all about bullet placement. Place your shot well, and most any reasonable handgun cartridge(and I thought 124 grain 9mm was slightly un-reasonable, but my bud had been knocking them dead with his .41AE, and I was a better shot than him; soooooo...)...and it's a done deal.
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
Kevin and Scott, I agree, as a man stopper the standard velocity 230 grain hard ball or hollow point is all that's needed.
What I was looking at is the 1911 platform for hunting especially hogs if they ever get up this way. There are a number of forums dedicated to hog hunting and many hunters prefer the Hornady .230 grain XTP over the Buffalo Bore 230 flat point hard ball. As one hunter put it feral hogs aren't rhinos nor are they armoured plated. The next most popular rounds in rifles are the .223 and 6.8SPC neither ones are a power house but they seem to drop hogs just fine.
One could always move up to the .460 Rowland or .45 Super but I think the .45 ACP +P would work just fine on most varmints including hogs. Still no need to go +P, like I said, the additional 100fps won't really get you anything. I've killed hogs with a 124 grain 9mm (280 pounder IIRC), and most everything on up. When you're handgun hunting hogs typically ranges are very close, so it's all about bullet placement. Place your shot well, and most any reasonable handgun cartridge(and I thought 124 grain 9mm was slightly un-reasonable, but my bud had been knocking them dead with his .41AE, and I was a better shot than him; soooooo...)...and it's a done deal. You are probably right on the +P's but as I don't reload and all the best factory loads are +P I'll probably use +P if I get the opportunity to pop a hog.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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In the case of the Buffalo Bore loads, I think it's a matter of attempting to make the .45acp a better hunting load. I dunno whether that works out or not...
As far as personal defense against humans....I don't see the need for +p or even premium loads in the .45acp. A wide flat point hard cast will leave a larger wound channel and penetrate deeper than will an unopended hollow point, I've seen it many times I am not a big fan of big bore hollow point bullets, but I like +P and 45 Supers.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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A wide flat point hard cast will leave a larger wound channel and penetrate deeper than will an unopended hollow point, I've seen it many times
I am not a big fan of big bore hollow point bullets, but I like +P and 45 Supers.
This is good advice. While I HAVE killed hogs with 9mm JHP�s, that doesn�t mean it�s necessarily a good idea. Check out this old thread by JWP475 where he demo�s his favorite load. IIRC, in that post JWP showed that his .45 ACP 255 grain load was giving performance more like a .44 magnum than a .45 ACP. I mean, the performance he wrung out of that .45 ACP was just impressive. I think JWP�s cast bullet load would be the Cat�s AZZ for hunting hogs. With the bullet he has in this thread, I�d trust the .45 ACP to reliably drop hogs all day long even at standard SAAMI pressures. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4999467/1 I really don�t know if anyone makes a factory version of this load, but if one could find such a load, you�re good to go. Barring that, the FMJ flat points are probably your best bet. Several companies load a FMJ FP, so just choose the one you like best: Fiocci�s FMJ TC with exposed lead at the tip looks like a very promising load. I wouldn�t expect any expansion from this round, but the exposed lead at the tip may deform slightly to make for a sharper shoulder, which just cuts flesh even better. This should give you DEEP holes of near full caliber, which is about ideal: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=785534 Magtech FMJ SWC �Good bullet for deep, straight penetration. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=830755
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Campfire Regular
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A wide flat point hard cast will leave a larger wound channel and penetrate deeper than will an unopended hollow point, I've seen it many times
I agree with the 1st part but question the 2nd. An unopened JHP and WFN of equal weight will be close in penetration with the edge going to the unopened, undeformed JHP. But usually the "unopened" JHP is still significantly deformed which reduces penetration. Although I have used JHP's from Montana Gold that behaved just like ball.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 16,000 |
Kevin and Scott, I agree, as a man stopper the standard velocity 230 grain hard ball or hollow point is all that's needed.
What I was looking at is the 1911 platform for hunting especially hogs if they ever get up this way. There are a number of forums dedicated to hog hunting and many hunters prefer the Hornady .230 grain XTP over the Buffalo Bore 230 flat point hard ball. As one hunter put it feral hogs aren't rhinos nor are they armoured plated. The next most popular rounds in rifles are the .223 and 6.8SPC neither ones are a power house but they seem to drop hogs just fine.
One could always move up to the .460 Rowland or .45 Super but I think the .45 ACP +P would work just fine on most varmints including hogs. I like .45acp's as much as anyone but: a number of years ago in was hunting hogs north of chico california, these were mixed russian boar and domestic feral hogs as i understand it. The head of the one i shot hangs over my desk. I hit that guy with a 30.06 150grain nosler running about 3000fps at about 35yards. It hit him so hard it flipped him over. He then crawled back to finish sucking the guts out of a dead cow. It took another round to finish him off, and even then he didn't die right away. I don't know about texas hogs, but i would say not all of them are not armor plated. My guy sure was. As to the .45 on humans, a lot of people have been killed by that round. But i do know a deputy that had to shoot a guy with ball ammo, and it did go through the guy, a wall, and wounded his partner. I would keep those things in mind.
Last edited by RoninPhx; 07/12/11.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I've tested very similar ammo on my 2.5 gallon water jugs. Got the almost identical penetration as you did. But much different apparent explosive effect between the FP bullets and the 230 gr. HP's. Apparently the larger jugs showed the effect of the expanding bullets as much different.
I know from experience on small game, and from the jugs I've shot, there is even a difference between the lead SWC bullets and the tapered, jacketed flat points. Again, the sharp shouldered SWC bullets disrupt better.
I recall the time when the 230 gr. HP, .45 ACP ammo wouldn't expand. However, I can state that this is not a problem with the Federal Hydra-Shok, the Hornady XTP or the white box Winchester ammo I've tested. We've learned alot about making this stuff work in the last 30 yrs.
To me, the thing that makes a good 230 gr. HP, .45 ACP such a good defense load is that it will shoot through things like auto glass, stay on course and have enough punch left to do real damage. E
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A wide flat point hard cast will leave a larger wound channel and penetrate deeper than will an unopended hollow point, I've seen it many times
I agree with the 1st part but question the 2nd. An unopened JHP and WFN of equal weight will be close in penetration with the edge going to the unopened, undeformed JHP. But usually the "unopened" JHP is still significantly deformed which reduces penetration. Although I have used JHP's from Montana Gold that behaved just like ball. The red portion is where my responce is directed. What proofs do you base this statement on? In my experience the unopened or slightly deformed hollow pointdoes not travel as straight of a course and does not penetrate as depply nor does itleave as large of a wound channel. I have seen this in test media and in animals.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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A wide flat point hard cast will leave a larger wound channel and penetrate deeper than will an unopended hollow point, I've seen it many times
I am not a big fan of big bore hollow point bullets, but I like +P and 45 Supers.
This is good advice. While I HAVE killed hogs with 9mm JHP�s, that doesn�t mean it�s necessarily a good idea. Check out this old thread by JWP475 where he demo�s his favorite load. IIRC, in that post JWP showed that his .45 ACP 255 grain load was giving performance more like a .44 magnum than a .45 ACP. I mean, the performance he wrung out of that .45 ACP was just impressive. I think JWP�s cast bullet load would be the Cat�s AZZ for hunting hogs. With the bullet he has in this thread, I�d trust the .45 ACP to reliably drop hogs all day long even at standard SAAMI pressures. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4999467/1 I really don�t know if anyone makes a factory version of this load, but if one could find such a load, you�re good to go. Barring that, the FMJ flat points are probably your best bet. Several companies load a FMJ FP, so just choose the one you like best: Fiocci�s FMJ TC with exposed lead at the tip looks like a very promising load. I wouldn�t expect any expansion from this round, but the exposed lead at the tip may deform slightly to make for a sharper shoulder, which just cuts flesh even better. This should give you DEEP holes of near full caliber, which is about ideal: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=785534 Magtech FMJ SWC �Good bullet for deep, straight penetration. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=830755 Kevin how are you? The load that you refered to that I tested is the BUFFALO Bore 45 ACP +P load. The 45 Super is about 140 FPS faster, not that the animal would,know the difference
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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A wide flat point hard cast will leave a larger wound channel and penetrate deeper than will an unopended hollow point, I've seen it many times
I agree with the 1st part but question the 2nd. An unopened JHP and WFN of equal weight will be close in penetration with the edge going to the unopened, undeformed JHP. But usually the "unopened" JHP is still significantly deformed which reduces penetration. Although I have used JHP's from Montana Gold that behaved just like ball. The red portion is where my responce is directed. What proofs do you base this statement on? In my experience the unopened or slightly deformed hollow pointdoes not travel as straight of a course and does not penetrate as depply nor does itleave as large of a wound channel. I have seen this in test media and in animals. I've never seen 45acp wander - its pretty stable. Montana Gold JHP would drill a hole straight and true - hardly ever deformed. No other JHP I tested behaved like this, but then they weren't marketed as self-defense bullets either. I don't disagree the WFN will create a slightly bigger hole, but there's no magic to make it penetrate better than a plugged, non-deforming JHP of equal weight. I've gotten some amazing penetration from JHP bullets that didn't work like they're supposed to. The bullet recovered from the piggie looks to me like it wasn't moving very fast on impact - less than 800fps would be my guess. But it did deform some and created a wound channel greater than the bullet diameter. One reason why I prefer the 185gr XTP for self-defense in my 1911's as I can keep the velocity above 1000fps easily and they always open to some degree (they're pretty soft).
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