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Joined: Jun 2000
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2000
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Hi Folks: John Barsness's latest exclusive column, " AFFORDABLE HANDLOADING," is on its way to your Inbox. If you haven't received this or previous versions, simply send your email address to rickbin 24hourcampfire.com, and request to be on board for future monthly columns. Here are links to a few select previous columns: "Bonded Bullets" "The Vagaries of Rifle Troubleshooting" "Scope Height" "Computer Ballistic Programs" "Reloading Data" "Triggers" "Older Hunters, Smaller Rifles" "Hunting Scope Magnification" Don't forget to check out John's (and Eileen's ) other stuff at http://www.riflesandrecipes.com. Many thanks, as usual, John!
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,038
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,038 |
John, thanks for the article. I enjoyed it. I also started on a Lee Loader, though I was in my late 20s, so it didn't last long. But I still use the decapping rod that came with it to fish walnut/corncob media out of the end of my newly shined brass. I believe you've talked before about sorting brass by neck thickness to improve handloads. You also mention you measured the concentricity of the loaded rounds out of the Lee Loader. Do you think a concentricity gauge is beneficial, or fluff? I'm also not sure this went out via email, as I normally get the articles fine but didn't receive this one. Others may find it here: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/SHOT_2012.htmlSorry to RickBin if we're not supposed to post the link.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38 |
A concentricity gauge is truly useful only if you're loading for the absolute finest accuracy in a rifle that will benefit. Otherwise just rolling loaded rounds across a piece of glass (or other really flat surface) and looking for bullet wobble will tell you if they're our more than .005"--which is all the alignment most typical factory sporters can benefit from.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,928 Likes: 18 |
Have you ever come across one that had a "hard" threshold?
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38 |
Well, sometimes. How's that for equivocating.
Once did an experiment with an accurate custom 7x57 with a short-throated chamber, using Hornady Light Magnum factory ammo. I bought three boxes and sorted them for bullet runout, divided the best, middle and worst batches into the three boxes. As I recall, the best box had .003" runout or less, the medium box, .004-005", and the worst box over .005".
The best box shot grouped three shots into 1/2" or so, the medium box shot around an inch, and the worst box into 1-1/2". That's pretty typical of a custom rifle, but most factory rifles have looser chambers, and sorting below .005" or so doesn't do much good.
In a really accurate varmint rifle sorting to no more than .003" will help, and in a real benchrest rifle runout of more than .001" (and sometimes even less) will normally show up on the target.
I've been playing with a 6mm PPC benchrest rifle for a few months now, and my Redding Competition dies produce ammo with no more than .0005" runout. With its best load, in neck-sized fire-formed brass, it groups five rounds into around .18" at 100 yards. With new brass the runout runs up to .003" and the groups open up to .3" or so.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,928 Likes: 18
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,928 Likes: 18 |
The closer the tolerances the better the resolution makes sense to me.
I have a 700 VTR in 308 and it isn't capable of BR or "built" varmint rifle accuracy, but it's pretty darn good for a factory rig in an injection molded stock. It's not as linear as the custom you mentioned, and has a .005" cutoff. Above that it's 1.5 MOA or so for five shots. But .004" and less will pour ten into an inch with many load combinations.
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Joined: Sep 2011
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,038 |
Interesting.
Do you think a custom rifle shoots poor ammo better than a factory stick?
Or do you think the ammo is the limitation in most instances, and you have to have both a rifle that shoots well AND ammo with good concentricity to get 7- or 10-shot MOAish groups?
FWIW, I believe most rifles will shoot MOA for 3-shot groups, but I don't think that tells me much about a rifle.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,928 Likes: 18 |
With good factory rifles it's easy to demonstrate grouping differences where significant runout is the variable. Of course a bad rifle won't shoot anything well. So you'd expect that a good rifle and straight ammo are needed to get a ten shot MOA group. I've read of crooked ammo shooting well, but that's the exceptional case.
I don't know if a custom rig can "force" crappy ammo to do better, but it seems one goal of a custom is to have it shoot everything better than a factory rifle.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 269
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 269 |
Thank you JB for excellent, easy to read and understand articles. They are useful and interesting reading for all of us handloaders, shooters and hunters no matter how long or short time we have been in the business. Your incredible own knowledge database from which you are sharing information to us is really fantastic and is certainly not second to anyone else.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38 |
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 13,000
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 13,000 |
Great essay. There must be a "Powder Horn" shop in every state. The first real, old school gun shop I went to was the named the "Powder Horn." Learned alot there.
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2007
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I enjoyed it and am a bit surprised that these type of articles dont generate more talk. I am guessing that this particular forum is made up of the "Choir" so to speak but saving a few bucks on ammo right now is not a bad thing with gas at over 4 dollars a gallon. I also really like being able to load down and give my kids stuff to shoot that does not kick like a mule. Not much on my local shelves in that department. Swap meets have been a great place to get basic gear for metalic and shotgun and the deals often include a few extra tidbits that make life easy. With 3 shotgun presses and two more for rifle\pistol I am running short on bench space. But we are shooting a lot more for sure and the kids love it. My son killed his first mallard and black duck with his own home made steel shot loads. A very cool add on to the experience. Can casting bullets be far off? Already make sinkers. My favorite part was the home made funnel. What is the most likely path to happiness in the cast your own world.
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,243 Likes: 11 |
With good factory rifles it's easy to demonstrate grouping differences where significant runout is the variable. Of course a bad rifle won't shoot anything well. So you'd expect that a good rifle and straight ammo are needed to get a ten shot MOA group. I've read of crooked ammo shooting well, but that's the exceptional case.
I don't know if a custom rig can "force" crappy ammo to do better, but it seems one goal of a custom is to have it shoot everything better than a factory rifle.
I would think a custom, well built rifle would decrease/eliminate confounding variables, such that one could actually measure just one variable: run out. In a loose chambered, sloppy rifle, you have nothing but one big ole confounded mess all unto itself... With one like that, you can't measure much of anything, just observe... DF
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38 |
Bob B257,
The best deals I've encountered in casting equipment are made by Lee. Their moulds are limited but pretty darn good; in fact I've used their .45-70 mould to make bullets that grouped 5 shots into an inch at 100 yards from an iron-sighted rifle (though the rifle was a custom High Wall and the sights a very sophisticated tang and front). Have also had good luck with their sizing dies that fit in a typical reloading press, as well as their cheapest electric furnace.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 10,084
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2006
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That which does not kill us makes us stronger
Friedrich Nietzsche
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New Member
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New Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 3 |
As an example, for those http://www.hifrost.com/karen-millen-one-shoulder-c-36.html have a boyish figure, you will get a curvier appear by pairing a black or blue colored bubble skirt using a best which has lace, ruffles or puff sleeved tops. However, a full figured woman can look slimmer by opting to get a straight cut leading to be http://www.hifrost.com using a bubble skirt. Pairing a poncho or tunic top rated using a bubble skirt also gives the illusion of a slimmer waistline.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 347
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 347 |
i don't seem to be getting these notices any more. would you kindly reinstate me on the list
thanks
vires,fortitudo,vigilantia
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 98
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 98 |
Hi John,
I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but here goes. I just purchased a Savage 99G take-down model made in 1929 and chambered in .303 Savage. I would like to take this rifle hunting. Do you have loads that you can suggest for this rifle? Like you, I am a huge fan of the Savage lever guns and my father has gathered a collection of them.
Thank you in advance,
Brian Webb
Last edited by Beavis1971; 07/30/12.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38 |
Brian,
One of the handy things about the .303 is that powder capacity is the same as the .30-30. Consequently any .30-30 data works great. Most of the .303 users I know shoot 170 round-noses with 4895 or a similar medium-rate powder.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 98
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 98 |
Thank you. I also ordered a box of the old 190gr Winchester Silvertips just to see how they perform.
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