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585 HE --- Super Strong--- If you've followed our work in the 12ga FH thread you've seen our 585 HE cartridge and its development. We have barrels of cases and more coming. We have put it in all kinds of guns, and tested it with 650gr bullet over 3000 fps as heavy load to test the brass, and also for lighter game like deer and hogs and target fun we found that some of the 440gr to 540gr 58cal Minie bullets work great. Cases have same overall loaded length as 505 Gibbs. First picture shows it beside a Gibbs. Next pic is a barrel of cases, Third, representative of typesof guns we have it in.Ed . . .
Last edited by hubel458; 10/08/13.
Ed Hubel
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Different strokes
The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment. � WARREN G. BENNIS
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Many guys like to stroke so to soeak, big bores.. And here is way they can do so without spending a years pay.They can get 100 cases, die set, and barrel to put in something for 750 bucks. We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads, can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...And moderate loads still much faster than 577NE. And can be had without costing a years pay. Most local users(only 1 in 10000 hunters go Africa) can shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 95 cents each, once you have cases... Ed
Last edited by hubel458; 10/12/13.
Ed Hubel
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Asked about putting it in #1, on another forum. And it is perfect case for the Ruger #1. The very few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve metal behind the action shoulders that breach block rests against because of rim. Ours don't have to and the #1s extractors I've seen work better with belted than big rimmed. Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine. It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder. Powder need not be like charcoal, IE, really slow powder, as necked needs. So it has effiencies of 37-39%, where necked cases are about 29%. Here is one done in a Savage.. The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall out after firing. Here are couple a nice singles with 585HE in them. Cases are made super strong, in the same factory run as the super high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of belt as Cheytac/Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws, just uses a different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners. These are not balloon head junk cases. We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some. Reamer specs all set and the chambers made with them, the cases extract at the highest pressures. Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP.Ed
Last edited by hubel458; 10/23/13.
Ed Hubel
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WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a sporting cartridge exemption few years ago. First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is 4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped, and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp. We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat them and put their own stamp on.. Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago. Third is one with AP bore rider bullet in with others behind. Maybe make a great long range target cartridge. Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that. Here is picture of 585HE with 700gr HP CEB bullet and 750 gr wide meplat CEB bullet..Ed
Ed Hubel
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In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic, long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted. We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work. Now these cases have a diameter that works with regular bolt guns, without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex. Here is picture of a case held in a Ruger bolt, for example.. And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much harder to harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper strength. because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing and heading operations in the manufacturing process. Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with no extraction problems. Here is picture of a O/U I had top barrel sleeved with smooth tube, and use the 585HE in it with lightweight, hollowbase Minie bullets. Shoots about as accurate as foster slugs in a 12ga. Bottom barrel is 3.5" 12ga smooth.
Ed Hubel
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Some more info- For guys in other countries you can get cases from Bertram in Australia. I can send die sets. There is a guy in AUS that has a reamer I sent him. We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585". Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture. WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies. Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot. Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in. We even got one in good ole NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked into it and gun weighted, with thick pad. Guy in TX got one also and there is video on ytube-- URL below-- Ed www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc
Ed Hubel
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We have a guy who is working toward getting the 585HE cases into Canada, for guys there to be able to get them from him.. Our case works for black powder type of loads using .585" Minie Bullets also. Here is picture sectioned case with 4 Pyrodex 54 cal pellets stacked behind a 440 gr Minie Bullet.Goes over 2500. Can be loaded with 3 pellets and 24ga cushion wad. Here is an innovation in a 585HE Falling Block we did. It's in a one piece thumbhole rifle stock. Nice to handle and shoots heavy loads a comfortable as a weighted bolt action gun. FBW brand. Here is a bunch of barrels we have, the wrapped ones are slow twist just for guys doing 585HE guns to use Minie bullets for deer, hogs, target, and plain ole fun Using black or smokeless. Here is picture of one being done by a guy on a big Enfield with a nice figured Walnut stock. It is weighted and has a thick pad. Being done African style with thick barrel and integral front sight. You can see a bunch cases in background shelf.--Ed
Ed Hubel
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Hooray the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14 that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks, 1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pics soon. Here are couple more pictures of the gun guy is doing with nice stock. Here is picture of 585 FBW falling block with a Knoxx Comstock. Helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed
Ed Hubel
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Ed,
Have you built any from a good SxS shotgun? A SxS double rifle in this caliber would be a lot of fun, and useful, too! I realize that getting the barrels regulated would be a pain in the butt (and shoulder, too!) but I for one would love to have such a piece.
MARK
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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I got one in an O/U with top barrel 585HE, and bottom 12ga. Put a liner in top barrel. I don't have stuff to monoblock 585 barrels in to a double monoblock. Be nice to have a 585HE double. Maybe some day I'll sleeve one. Here is picture of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels. We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks. Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some of the cases and die sets. Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels, 1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper to .980 inch at the muzzle. Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions, without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up. Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold bigger cases...Ed
Ed Hubel
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Here is picture of 585HE in a Montana Rifle Co. PH action. The double stack mag for the 505 Gibbs they make works ok. The Enfield in the Hogue stock above is gone. We also had guy show us how the case can work for a high energy subsonic cartridge. High energy for subsonic 1600 gr at 1050 fps. The 585HE Whisper Anyone with some way overbore 14.9 mm necked cases on huge actions, can make case inserts for using our case to fire subsonic And fire 650gr or 750 gr at high speeds. Can't get 14.9 Russian cases use ours in same gun with inserts. Break action I like we did on a CBC by mono-blocking in a 585 barrel set up especially for Minie bullets of 440 to 540 gr.
Ed Hubel
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I got one in an O/U with top barrel 585HE, and bottom 12ga. Put a liner in top barrel. I don't have stuff to monoblock 585 barrels in to a double monoblock. Be nice to have a 585HE double. Maybe some day I'll sleeve one. Here is picture of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels. We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks. Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some of the cases and die sets. Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels, 1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper to .980 inch at the muzzle. Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions, without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up. Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold bigger cases...Ed When you decide to build one of these in SxS confguration, I would be all ears! Would love to have one, maybe even the first one. Had an SKB 20 GA that would have been a wonderful donor, but just traded it to a local plumber for a bathroom re model for my wifey Keep me posted, you HAVE do do these in a SxS someday, somehow....
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Lots and lots of chopped up 'semi sporterized' 1917 Enfields laying around the gun shows, if I were to snag one, what is the cost to have you convert it to an HE? Including about 100 cases and a set of dies, of course.
I have a beautifull full custom 416 Rigby so don't really need one, but it sure would be a hoot to play with.
Ever tried these cases in a plain 12 GA SxS shotgun with a rifled choke tube at the ends of the barrels?
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Others have used different 12ga loads with rifled choke tubes with varying success. Accuracy depends mostly on bullet construction/speed. Doubles are not good for high speeds as our slow powder, fast slug loads need heavier barrels than what doubles have.
To have 585HE Enfield done with barrel cost, dies, 100 cases, singlestack mag, in a Hogue stock, and the barrel, metal, chamber and stock fitting work $1300. Without a stock(do your own) $1150. Without mag set up as single shot $1000. The barrels are polished a little and all fancy finish and blueing and stock finish things others can do that have the tools.Ed
Last edited by hubel458; 01/26/14.
Ed Hubel
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You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine. We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we can load from the top. Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted easy. Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores. There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest, called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits. For high powered rifles average barrel pressure run 15-18000 psi. There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure fairly close if you know the muzzle energy. We multiply ME times 12 and divide by barrel cross section x length. Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl. ABP = ( 5000 ft lbs x 12) divided by (.17 sg in x 24") = 15,000 psi Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big gains, as it would take peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase. Now example of 585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load, a real moderate load in this case. ABP = (7000 ft lb x 12) divided by (.27 sg in x 26") = 12000 psi The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential, a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed
Last edited by hubel458; 02/08/14.
Ed Hubel
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Here is a few of the variety of bullets we found or know about to use in 585HE, about a third of them, from 440gr, to 750gr, to 1200gr, to 1600gr. Here is picture of what 200gr powder, in a case that had the powder settled, looks like. We now have more 585 new straight blanks giving a total of 9 basic blanks, with long ones for guys setting up target guns. And a bunch more of the profiled barrels are being made now to go with new ones we got left. One went on this BBK pictured, 3 on Enfields, one on FBW, one a Ruger, two in PHs. Guys have used 5 of the new slow twist barrels. Ed
Last edited by hubel458; 03/05/14.
Ed Hubel
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There is a guy and his smith in AUS that has a reamer for the 585HE. And maybe another firm there that can get a bunch reasonably priced barrels imported in from the US. Our Mcgowen barrels are high quality, hand lapped, and only half of what getting them in from other places cost. Here is part of stuff that the guys have to work with.. Here is picture of the Mossy 390 action, after I'd set up for the 585HE. Just to see how good the action is, and I have since set barrel back and made it into a 24ga FH. Just makes an easy to work with test gun. Being both use same size bore, and in 24ga with 3" chamber I can use 577 brass for 24ga cases, using same Minie and jacketed as 585HE. 58CAL IN ALL FORMS is where it is at, so to speak......Ed PS-We have longer barrels now for target work including real heavy ones of 1 5/8 inches, that some guys are working on getting bigger actions set up to use them in. .
Ed Hubel
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Here is a picture of the first 585HE to be done and firing, in Australia, owned by the poster, tankhunter on AR forums. Fellows there can get cases from Bertram. I can send dies and reamers.And can get dies from CH4D. There soon will be 3 reamers there. And now a company starting to make 585 barrels there. I have about 17 here, so no waiting here. Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland... allanswan at uplink.net.au. WE have cases with plain heads if guys need some for wlldcatting, necking down, and they can put on their own headstamp.Ed
Ed Hubel
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