It’s sad that there were 2 fatal crashes recently and I’m not supporting Boeing in any way. But it’s been stated there could be some software conflict about the angle of attack and the autopilot computer compensates and dropped the nose down which causes the steep dive crash.
But the Supermax 8 was introduced in January 2016 - how was it able to survive for 3 years before these first crashes? And why weren’t there more crashes around the same time period as the recent two?
I read Boeing made a few different versions of control systems, the ones that crashed were the ones with the minimum control system to reduce cost. Combined with flight crews who were probably not up to western standards. But it could be some BS from a internet pilot.
"Life is tough, even tougher if your stupid" John Wayne
Pilot error I think, may be a problem with the auto pilot and angle of attack computer glitch. If the pilot were properly trained the way to solve the problem is to turn off auto pilot or the auto trim. There is a large trim wheel between the pilot seats with big marks on it. If the trim is running wild a pilot should notice this wheel spinning resolve the problem by turning of the auto pilot or auto trim. I am not an ATR pilot but fly an older Cessna 210. In this aircraft there is a switch on the yoke to turn off auto pilot, I'm sure it is a less complicate aircraft, but the is a way to turn off the auto pilot almost instantly. A more well trained pilot was dead heading on one of the planes the day before and recognized the problem and was able to help the regular flight crew save the plane, however when they landed they made no mention of the problem to the maintenance crews. Just my humble opinion.
One would think a natural reaction of a pilot would be to disengage autopilot and try to regain control of the plane in a timly manner and go from there.
However, in the Ethiopian Airlines situation, the pilots did follow Boeing protocol and turned-off teh system, but the plane still creased. This leads to speculation that there might be some other "bugs"hidden in the software.
The 737 is a legendary airplane but its been remade into versions it wasn't originally intended to be. They keep putting larger engines on it, so this causes them to be mounted more forward of the wing and the already short landing gear and means the plane is more tricky in a stall situation. This is because they plane will pitch up when you add power. So if the plane is stalling you must get the nose down, then add power. this can cause and issue with elevator authority, if the plane is in a stall. meaning the elevator doesn't have the airflow anymore to control pitch angle. So what they do to fix this is move the entire rear horizonatal wings, not just the elevators. This is controlled by a jack screw that will move the entire rear stablizers. basically grabbing alot more air, doing so. this is the leading theory on why the planes crashed. its called the MCAS system. watch this video for a great explanation.
Pilot error I think, may be a problem with the auto pilot and angle of attack computer glitch. If the pilot were properly trained the way to solve the problem is to turn off auto pilot. There is a large trim wheel between the pilot seats with big marks on it. If the trim is running wild a pilot should notice this wheel spinning resolve the problem by turning of the auto pilot. I am not an ATR pilot but fly an older Cessna 210. In this aircraft there is a switch on the yoke to turn off auto pilot, I'm sure it is a less complicate aircraft, but the is a way to turn off the auto pilot almost instantly. A more well trained pilot was dead heading on one of the planes the day before and recognized the problem and was able to help the regular flight crew save the plane, however when they landed they made no mention of the problem to the maintenance crews. Just my humble opinion.
My first flight instructor told my the are no stupid pilots, just pilots that don't react properly. He was a Pan Am pilot for 30 years and ended his career in the left seat of 747's.Never scratched a plane.
A Cessna 210 is less complicated then a 737? Some real experts around here.
All the guys want to be me, and all the bitches want to do me.
surprised another pilot would jump to conclusions about pilot error. I even caveated my comments basically with this is what is in the news or this is what they are looking at. no one knows what happened. Also the video I posted the guy who is an actual 737 pilot explains when and how the auto pilot is turned off and under what circumstances. he also explains how the elevator is totally ineffective if the system moved the entire surface of the horizontal stabilizer. I think its reasonable that given the right cirumstances and right after takeoff, if the that jack screw went nuts that there wasn't a manual way of correcting it fast enough.
Poorly designed system and sub-par pilots. Pretty simple. If crap isn't working TURN IT OFF or pull the breakers.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
This may indicate either there are other issues or the certification protocol missed some points.
They failed to disconnect the system, either at the on/off switches just under the throttle quadrants or failing that, pull the offending circuit breakers. Apparently US airlines had the same incidents occur to them and they handled it with no problems.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
It wasn't so much pilot error as poor training. Jorge is right. You are trained to automatically do certain things when things malfunction. You don't have time to think about it or look it up in the manual. First class airlines have much more in-depth training programs while some airlines do the minimum. The more I learn about airlines, the shorter the list of who I'd fly becomes.
This may indicate either there are other issues or the certification protocol missed some points.
They failed to disconnect the system, either at the on/off switches just under the throttle quadrants or failing that, pull the offending circuit breakers. Apparently US airlines had the same incidents occur to them and they handled it with no problems.
The industry is trying to take operator skill out of the equation with automation to meet the pilot demand. Why is everybody with the exception of skilled pilots shocked that an accident like this can happen?
The safety analysis Boeing sent to the FAA reported that the MCAS could only move the plane’s horizontal tail 0.6 degrees (out of a physical maximum of a little less than five degrees). But during later flight tests, Boeing discovered that 0.6 degrees of movement wasn’t enough to avert a high speed stall. Boeing eventually increased the limit to 2.5 degrees.
Despite quadrupling the amount that the MCAS could move the plane’s tail, Boeing never updated the documents it sent to the FAA. FAA engineers only found out about the change after the Lion Air crash, when Boeing sent a notice to airlines explaining how the system worked.
“The FAA believed the airplane was designed to the 0.6 limit, and that’s what the foreign regulatory authorities thought, too,” an FAA engineer told the Times. “It makes a difference in your assessment of the hazard involved.”
******
The safety analysis that Boeing and the FAA collaborated on concluded that a faulty activation of MCAS under extreme flight conditions would be a “hazardous failure”—meaning it could cause serious or fatal injuries to a few passengers, The analysis stopped short of the “catastrophic failure” classification that predicts a total loss and many deaths.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
It wasn't so much pilot error as poor training. Jorge is right. You are trained to automatically do certain things when things malfunction. You don't have time to think about it or look it up in the manual. First class airlines have much more in-depth training programs while some airlines do the minimum. The more I learn about airlines, the shorter the list of who I'd fly becomes.
Major U.S. airlines like developing world airlines, skimped by not investing in the relevant 737 MAX simulators.
however, simulator training does not provide precise duplication of what pilots can encounter in a real crisis, so the value of simulator training is somewhat limited.
A primary selling-marketing strategy of Boeing was based on telling air carriers that their pilots would not require any such additional simulator training and certification for the 737 MAX.
Originally Posted by Stormin_Norman
I read Boeing made a few different versions of control systems, the ones that crashed were the ones with the minimum control system to reduce cost. Combined with flight crews who were probably not up to western standards. But it could be some BS from a internet pilot.
re: 'western Standard'....?....fact of the matter is Not all western pilots are trained to the same std. for 737 MAX.
Originally Posted by Switch
Pilot error I think, may be a problem with the auto pilot and angle of attack computer glitch. If the pilot were properly trained the way to solve the problem is to turn off auto pilot..
Except that turning off Auto Pilot does not deactivate MACS.
MACS can still continue to kick in when an aircraft is operated under manual control. A pilot can counteract the dive by pulling up on the control column, but MACS will kick in again after 10 second intervals. Lion Air showed that the aircraft oscillated 26 times in the struggle between pilot input and MACS.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Simulators isn't all of it. Pilots are constantly getting tech bulletins. They describe incidents and how things were remedied. The manufacturers aren't trying to take the pilot out of it. When things go wrong, the pilots are hand flying. The First Officer of the Ethiopian flight had only 200 hours of flight time. That's terrible.
Except that turning off Auto Pilot does not deactivate MACS.
MACS can still continue to kick in when an aircraft is operated under manual control. A pilot can counteract the dive by pulling up on the control column, but MCAS will kick in again after 10 seconds and again tilt the aircraft downwards.
This has nothing to do with the autopilot. You turn off the automatic trim.
