It's called long range hunting. Nuthin about huntin all about shootin. Get it right.

Here we go……

long range hunting ?
why ? because we can ......

and you can't .... because you suck balls

simple question ... do you shoot the animal at short range, or do you stalk it to death ?

OP=BS

I thought the same!

We know you like to try to stir up things, but can you communicate on something you started?
What do you hunt with?
Where do you hunt and what kind of terrain (dark timber or more open country)?

Remind me to start that thread in the “Hunter’s Campfire” about whether or not booze has made the Campfire a better place……


Personally, I think (and I volunteer to be President of this club) that a lot of people have fretted (and still fret) shooting stuff way out there and have never shot anything living beyond 250 yards (don’t get me wrong, I know some actually do).

Years ago, it was done with a .270 or .25-06 (shoots flat and speed kills!), now it’s high BC bullets (kills more efficiently!).

Now, go away while I fret over a 6mm Arc or a .22 Arc to hunt where I can’t see over 150 yards……😂

"Years ago, it was done with a .270 or .25-06 (shoots flat and speed kills!), now it’s high BC bullets (kills more efficiently!)."

Wouldn't this be "hits more efficiently"?

Whip out the moccasins, the wooden arrows with flint bullet heads if yer really wantin ta hunt.

I was at the rifle range shooting awhile back! I had placed my target on the 500 yard line. An older fella, perhaps it was you I don't know, told me I had no buisiness shooting at 500 yards because you can't hunt game ethically at 500 yards. His target was places at 100 yards. We both shot 5 shots and went down range to aquire our targets. My group was 5 shots In less than 2". His group was 5 shots into 4 ish inches. My question is this.........do I have more buisiness hunting game at 500 yards than he does at 100 yards ? Or is consistency of shooting or group size even relevant?

Trystan

The problem with a statement like this is, what exactly IS considered " long range" and who dictates said distance?
Cat

From some of his past posts, he has had trouble with his guns.
It might’ve been him, but doubtful, cause I think he lives in Canada. It sure illustrates the point well.

lol!

The people that say you should not take long shots on game are the same people that say you should never take neck or head shots. In other words, they don't know how to shoot.

Here is a simple approach. If you don't think you can make the shot, don't take it, because you probably can't.

Serenity now!


LOL

If you and your antagonist had been shooting from field positions minus bench and bags, and shooting for ten ring instead of groups...I'd say your argument has merit. By your current methods, equipment...all you have proved is that your skill, ammo and rifle are more than capable of shooting tiny groups at mid range (I couldn't do that, 2" @ 500)...whether you can place that one shot in the heart lung off your knees for instance, was not demonstrated. Maybe you can do it. Our club held NRA Sporting Rifle matches for many years, and it was shocking to see how many shooters are unable, regardless of what fine rifles and optics they had, to put eight shots in the ten ring from the 3 positions at 200 yards. NRA stats...98% could not.
The recent debacle between some young female idiot with her mentor and Aram Von Benedikt has done nothing to change my mind.

Reasonable observations.

> looks like i better melt the butter and get the popcorn poppin ? and get a big bowl out for the popcorn ? this should be entertaining ?

Interesting you mention this, as in a deer camp recently I asked that exact question to five guys. What is long range to you? All had different answers, from 400 yrds down to anything over 100. Long Range seems to be a very personal thing, and the definition varies by individual.

So now we cannot even agree on when something is far away? Egad. I prefer to get myself close to animals. I put as much value in the ability to stalk an animal as in shooting ability unlike some here apparently.

When your bullet starts dropping below the width of an animals body such as a deer then I'd say it gets out there I guess. Average jo out there with grandpa's 270 and a 9 power your still dead on a 200. Lift it 6 inches a 300. Past that and you have to guess a bit. Then the term long range might come in. I think anything past 4 is a tough shot, especially when you get some wind in there.

Killing an animal at 500 yds requires excellent shooting. Killing an animal at 50 yds requires excellent hunting. One of the thing's I've noticed about self described long range hunters is it seldom requires more than two shots, they never miss and they always go right to the spot the deer fell!

Spend 2500 on a decent scope and a good ol rem 700 in say 300 win and your gonna notice 400 is what 200 used to be. Then 600 becomes a tough one.

How much does taking a shot at 600 yards add to actual hunting when you could enjoy a stalk to within 200 yards? Is it some kind of bragging rights thing? I also see Antelope being chased by pickup trucks and shot on the run. Which is more sporting? And bullet performance is sometime compromised due to lower velocities. Circumstances have to be just right for me to shoot at a live animal 450 yards away. Light wind, good light, open enough to see the animal run a ways. Yes long range shooting is a more appropriate title for the forum.

This is the knowledge level of most that criticize Long Range Hunting or Shooting

Awesome

I don't disagree with you on the criticizing since there is such a spectrum of experience, tools, and firearms. If we're looking for a consensus (which I know we'll never get) of standard definition, I don't think that is so bad Rick. But rather than saying 400 yards (or point blank range of standard calibers such as .270 or 30-06 is a tough shot, perhaps some wording to say that you are into "long-range territory."

I know, one man's opinion. We know there is a broad range of variances in opinions.

PS - only two pages so far, I'm disappointed!

With single-shot specialty pistols: 14.5" 250 Savage XP-100 and a 15" rear-grip Black Widow - 25-284
Closest kill this year: 26 yards-put a hole in her heart (whitetail doe). One and done. Ran about 40 yards
Longest kill this year: 754 yards. One and done. Ran about 50 yards in counter-clockwise circle.
I over doped the wind, and was about 5" off of where I wanted to hit for horizontal, but the vertical was spot on.

For what it's worth, it took ten times the effort for the buck antelope at 754 yards than the 26 yard doe did. Nothing goes perfect all of the time.
Another doe I shot off of a tri-pod/No Arca rail (Rear-grip 14.5" 308 Winchester) was a much harder shot, since it was a on demand shot, I stopped here with a load bleat at around 225 yards. It was still much easier than the antelope buck at distance.

I don't care if you are a self-described short range, mid range, or long range hunter.
self-described means nothing.

There are poor hunters/slob hunters from in your face to way out there, with all weapon types.

The cartridges I use have more impact energy at 500 yards than what most of the short range dolts use , have at the muzzle

I take two weeks off work to go moose hunting, solo as always and take my time in setting up and am very selective and pass up a good number of bulls until I see a shooter or run out of time then take what I can, only one shot is ever fired

most of the anti-long range hunting, trigger happy fat old bastards can't shoot their shytty little cartridges with shytty bullets, And blast at the first animal they see on the side of the road or trail and call themselves hunters

That ain't hunting, that's wild eyed, spraying n praying until you hit it, after multiple shots, ya wing it and the chase is on, following blood trails and such stupid shyte, you shoot an animal with a rifle, it's supposed to fall the fk over and die, not run off

I know a couple old farts locally that think the .45-70 is the greatest moose killer ever invented, dumb bastards have maybe 4-5 little dink moose between them in over 50 years of hunting... Real hunters, lol !

Long range hunting is a financial commitment as well as a personal commitment. Joe average hunter as stated above with commitment only to shoot at 275 yards or so, but fears the 450 yard shot did not commit to equipment or training to make that shot.

As to stalking closer, Many have had less than an hour of legal light looking out with spotters and highX binocs whereby finding game at 700 yards and only being able to get within 400-500 yards from peak to peak. For the hunter equipped and trained (practiced) and committed to longer ranges, it’s really a piece of cake at 500 yards. No judgements should be passed for either the most confident or least confident, it’s all about personal limitations.

Excellent post. I have a story to tell on a hunter I met at the range a couple weeks ago. He has a tag that he needs to fill, and he said his shots may be 400 yards, but he said he's never shot at 400 yards before. We start talking and I ask how the rifle shoots, how it's zeroed, and if he hit the target he set at 300 yards. I had my target stapled to a box on the ground at 300 yards because I did not want him to confuse my target with his, plus I was getting my hold over for a shoot I had this last saturday. He said he didn't think he hit the target at all at 300 yards. He said his rifle was dialed in for zero at 200 yards though, but there was not a single bullet hole in the 300 yard target. He said he thinks the "wind pushed the bullet off the paper". I said, I just shot the target stapled to the box that is sitting on the ground. The wind had pushed the group over a couple inches, but it was still a 1" group. He said, hmmm you hit near the orange dot. I told him I was holding off just a little bit to account for the wind. He asked if I'd help him shoot the steel yote at 400 yards, and I said sure.

He said he did not know how to use his scope, but that it was a good one, he paid "a lot of money for it". A Vortex Razor LHT, that he said he paid over $1,200.00 for. I told him I'd just use the reticle for holdovers. They were labeled in MOA's. I said if you are zeroed at 200 yards, you'll have to use the hash marks in your reticle to hit the yote. He asked, "how do you do that", so I explained to him. At first he thought you held on the hash marks above the horizontal crosshair, and I told him, you need to use the hash marks below the horizontal crosshair. I spotted for him, and he tried different holds until he made a hit on the yote. He was excited, and I told him to remember the hold on the reticle if he gets an elk in the crosshairs at 400 yards. I told him to try to hit it again, using the same hold, and he hit it again.

Moral of the story: I can't believe how many guys I run into at the range that have absolutely no experience with their equipment. It's a lot of those guys that badmouth longrange shooters/hunters.

Like I always say, a smart indian uses a rifle.

Group size and POI is always relevant. Doesn't matter how far away your target is. It does matter how consistently you can hit your POA, or how close your POI is to your intended POI. You know that though. A game animal is different than a bullseye, in that it is more critical that you dispatch it humanely: 1 shot is the goal. A bullseye target is the same thing, but you may have 10 or 20 shots on target. When you are burning the X-ring out with every shot, you know the consistency is there, and that is extremely important. It applies to hunting, because it tells you that you and your equipment are capable. There's no guessing about it, no doubting it, and we know luck shots for damn sure don't count!!!

Shoot to 1,000, and 600 becomes pretty easy. We can go on....... In the varmint silhouette matches I shoot, they have a rabbit set at 600 yards. The majority of us hit it pretty consistently too. That's fired from the prone, with no rear bag. The only support you get is from your body. Very similar to how you'd be shooting in the field. We also use no wind flags, so you use other methods to spot and correct for wind. Trust me, if you can hit a rabbit at 600 yards, you'll easily take out elk vitals at that range.

Some time back I was having an issue with the computer, and mentioned it to my engineer son. He said,"The thing doesn`t do what you want it to do, it does what you tell it to do". The same with the rifle, it will do what you tell it to do, not what you want it to do. The operator needs to know the difference by learning how his equipment works. Most are too lazy to find out.

A good delineation would be the point at which "gadgets" are necessary, and Marksmanship and human skill become superfluous.

Like fishing with a fish-finder, is laser-ranging/wind-metering a bagged and bi-podded, dialing-scoped rifle really hunting?




GR

Relax Rick.
I'm saying the average weekend deer hunter.
I got a rig and a kestrel. I know what it takes to make a bomb. It's hard. But let's face it, you need to shell out some jack to consistently hit what the long range hunter call long range.
Long range e to a guy in New York may be 75 yards with a 45-70 and open sights. Long range to a guy in west Texas or Oklahoma where I'm at is past 4-500.

Do what ya want, just expect some dumbazz to find fault with it.

No matter what ya do.

That's worth buying you a beer..

Seems to me, most of the folks screaming about LR or dialing or what have you don't kill much either way, not the majority, but they spend more time reading about shooting or hunting than actually doing it..

Bingo!

Man! - did my observation separate the hunters from the shooters! When animals stop moving, winds stop blowing, and everyone can hit as well at whatever "long range" is under field conditions then it might become ethical to shoot at long range like we see marketed today....but not before. Don't be a wannabe hunter and take it out on big game because for whatever reason you can't be a real hunter....because you are not. And unless you change your entire attitude never will be.

Yeah...You sure did separate the the two groups so well...
It is exactly what this group needed

Ethics ? lol

Your brand of ethics are your creation of a weak excuse to explain away why you are incapable of accurate fire beyond a few hundred yards, because you lack the ability & skill, you attack those who do.

It's not "ethics" you are squawking about, it's just a Karenesque tantrum directed towards those better than you

Your self created halo doesn't extend beyond your own stench, remember that


the day you "hunt" down an animal and take it down with your claws & teeth is the day you will be a "real hunter"

Shoot it with a rifle at close range ? well you fkn shot it, same as the guy at long range

the only difference is ... the long range hunter is better than you

A friend shot a stag at 750 yards, 368 score, in Kazakhstan. Should be #10 in the record books for Maral Stag.

He worked his butt off hunting, and was able to make a long shot when the time came.

Hunting sometimes involves long range shooting. To say it’s not hunting if the shots are long is worse than simplistic.

It shows you’ve never been too far away from a house, or a cabin or a farm. Real hunting, in my thinking, involves boats, or horses, or airplanes and backpacks and tents and small wood stoves.

I suspect you’ve never been hunting out away from civilization.

Wonder how many of us have had to use up our tag to put down an animal found wounded.

Two for me, both deer. Should have dropped a third but wanted to keep hunting ... bad excuse.

Could have been from a lousy shot at 50 yards .Painting with a wide brush there.

Believe it or not, there are actually some people out there that can shoot. This animals could have been wounded at 50 yards, who knows. It just takes the right equipment and practice. Know your equipment and it can .ake thongs go smoothly. Alot of people buy the stuff, but don't know what they are doing when behind the lugs. You have to regularly shoot at those ranges to be effective. The one hail mary on the last day isn't long range hunting. That's just shooting at stuff a long ways away.

It has been a while but I vividly remember a thread on this board where one guy said that archery hunting should be outlawed because it is easier to wound a critter with a bow and another said rifle hunting should be outlawed because 100 yard shots are too easy and not sporting.

I do not recall the thread subject but these were two absolutely unrelated comments in the same thread.

As the world turns...

No one said they couldn't hit at 500 yards but once you get past 450 yards guessing the wind gets interesting. Plus that wind in all likelihood is not going to be blowing evenly for said 500 yards. 1 mph is worth 1.8 inches at 500 yards. If you can gauge wind inside 4 mph on the Wyoming sage flats grazed low by sheep then yes you possess a skill I don't. The reality is that in good conditions 500 yards isn't a tough shot. If anyone is blowing BS it's you. Defensive stupid BS because you know shooting elk and other medium game at 700 yards is unethical. And why do it? Too pitiful to wait for a better shot or make one happen?

I havent been to a public shooting range in a very long time. The guys rapid firing an SKS and think they impressing everyone. Guys with magnum rifles that bought them because one of their friends owns one. Snipers that just got back from Iraq and have 20 confirmed kills, most of these guys are less than 21 years old, overweight, and are wearing desert BDUs.

Lots to unpack here.

First off is that SwampLadyBio is a poser. She does not shoot game, much less game at distance. She is simply full of shit.

Next thing is being able to precisly place a shot under real world conditions is the skill of a Master Hunter.

Many times the distance is less than 100yds, the game maybe moving, and time is critically short. Such shooting is very difficult and to do it well requires a Master who devotes hours to developing his markmanship skillz.

At other times the distance is long. The time crunch might still be there. The Master can precisely place the shot or even better walk away when the shot won't come together.

Close or far the Master Hunter will land the shot under pressure or will hold off because there was no shot. The Duffer will blast away.

The difference is many excuse the Duffer blasting away up close because that's all they know.

Good for you that you acknowledge you wind reading is lacking. Reading the wind is a skill that takes time and effort to improve. But it can be done.

Interesting thing I've noticed just looking at things. A guy can blast a doe at 100yd with a 300 win mag out of a box stand he's been sitting in eating Debbie cakes playing on his phone with a heater ,watch her run 100yd before dropping ( or just watch her run off then give her 30min to an hour to "lay up") and a majority of people will say HELL YEAH THATS SOME REAL HUNTING!

but then you get the guy with a good rifle ,hand loads ,who practices their butt off ( eveyone I've talked to who's serious about long range practices way more then the average hunter, non of this proud to only shoot 20rd a year bs )go's up in the hill or what have you bust butt hiking and glassing then is able to dial in and make a shot with a 6mm whatever and bang flops a elk or something at 600yd , critter never takes more then a few steps and just keels over dead . The same people who think the first scenario is perfectly fine get out raged at the second then want to cry ethics? I don't get it.

Also it's really weird to me when I hear people talk about animals getting wounded at distance which yeah will eventually happen ,but when some jack wagon guy shoots a deer @50yd with his savage axis or bow it's just " what can you do stuff happens just go get the dogs least we can get the head possibly"

Honestly if you wanna get on a high horse of "real hunting" I mean if your able to get so close to these animals like so many people like to talk " getting within knife fighting range "and all that about but your not just taking a head shot , because you know ethics, that's the most painless human shot you can make on an animal at such "proper " hunting distances shouldn't be hard at all , I mean how can you really call yourself an ethical or real hunter ?

Heck if you not making your own bow and arrows creeping around in buck skin you brain tanned yourt....yeah see how that sounds ?

As someone who's trying to get into longer distance hunting ( for me that's like 600yd max due to terrain )I'll tell you plain and simple most people just pain arnt willing to actually go in as deep as they need to from an education, practice or monetary stand point or be humble enough to understand they don't know jack [bleep] so they just spout random BS about ethics and "real hunting" . And half the times it's just plain because they can't do it ,either because they don't have the equipment, know how ect

Long distance shooting and and long distance hunting are two complete different things.

In my opinion it is generally not necessary to take long shots and ridiculous to do so just to do so on live game.

If one has the skill and equipment, and puts in the time to create repeatable results, well more power to you.


To encourage everyone to hunt that way and or criticize someone that prefers to stalk is just a bunch of egotistical BS.

Those that are successful at long range, be it paper targets, steel targets, or live game, are the ones who have made a commitment to it. They are not your average shooter, or your average hunter.

They are the ones who put together the rifle that will do the job, use an optic that will do the job, and put together a load that will do the job. They are the ones who agonize over the details that the average hunter gleefully declares as unnecessary, because it's just a hunting rifle, it's just a hunting scope, it's just a hunting load.

They are not the ones who leave their rifles in the safe for 50 weeks out of the year, untouched. They are the ones out shooting during the off season, making sure their shi t will do the job, instead of hold up on the internet pontificating about what someone else's "ethics" should be.

Long range anything, obviously isn't for everyone, and especially isn't for the average shooter/hunter.

For sure Ted. I think it's awesome when other folks push their ideals onto others. We totally come unglued when the political system does it, but somehow folks think it is totally legit to do it in regards to how people legally decide to fill their freezers.

I’ve invested a lot of time, money and effort in my rifle system, reloading equipment, materials and techniques to achieve the most repeatable results possible. That said I admit that I don’t have near enough trigger time in windy conditions to even attempt shooting at game. Distance yes. Wind no. I’ll be the first to admit that and am totally fine with it.

There are places on this earth where wind is a constant problem. Fortunately, I don't live there. I've always found it pretty darn easy to decide if a certain day is just too windy for anything long range, and to hunt a different way on those days.

I understand that there are lots of people who think it is unethical or lazy to shoot game further away than 300 yards. I will never understand why those people read threads or post in the long range hunting forum.

Long range to me is putting a 50 RB fueled by BP into a deers boiler room at 100 yds. I won't hardly shoot at anything further because of my eyes and age related shakiness.

Isn't marketing and advertising marvelous. It lines the sheep up in a perfect row. And can they ever shoot!! No wounding, just ass over tea kettle dead at a thousand yards with a single shot. One professional I seen in a TV program took a whack at 900-1000 yards, I forget which. It was a bull elk standing broadside and at the shot it took off on the run only to be dead centered in the lungs and dropped in it's tracks. The first shot hit the tip of the fifth point, a miss of four feet, but the second was perfect on the dead run through trees and taken off hand. Now thats what I call "shootin"! But I wonder? - how many dollar's did that clip generate?

Ain't nothing worng with that!

But, I like to traditional bow hunt. I like observing animals up close and learning from them. However, I also enjoy sitting on a hill and seeing miles in every direction and observing them from a ways out too, knowing I could set up and possibly make the shot happen. It is what it is. Nothing wrong with anyway of hunting, just know your equipment!

The only sheep lined up here are those determined and dedicated few that can't not cry, whine, and bitch about what other people choose to do with their time, effort, and money.

We know, you never miss a chance to tell the world how phuggin' wonderful you are.

good answer , true and the best reply A+

Ethics by definition are not subjective. Hey Petey-pie what bullet should one use for long range hunting in 30 cal? Bwaaahhhaaaaa. Loser.

A person needs to know their weapons, ammo and their weaknesses. Just because you read somewhere what your equipment can do doesn't mean you can do it. If someone doesn't like the way I hunt they can go suck some azz.

Anybody notice it's all me - me- me, all about what get's me off, not one peep about wounding rates! It is nothing but sick - sick - sick, and nothing to do with other peoples choices. It's just too bad our big game suffers needlessly just so a few can get their jolly's and sell some un needed products. It' just that simple.

C'mon man, those 338 Skullfuck and 416 Hamsplitter rounds are awesome.

Anothergun....just how many accounts do you have anyway?

whatever Bluefish its easy and safe for you on your keyboard. you must have little man syndrome ?

You quadjabbed old twats can throw all the hissy fits ya want, but guess what ? Nobody gives a shyte what your feeble minds think is unethical, your pretend halo is yours to wear

and your ED is your fkn problem, or should I say "your nonfkn problem" lol !

A guy walks to the woods carrying his long bow in one hand. On his back, along side his small backpack is a quiver with a few wooden arrows. The back pack carries a canteen and enough food for one day. Is he hunting?

A guy drives to the woods in a pickup. He gets out throws on his small backpack with a canteen and enough food for one day. He has a quiver with a few arrows attached to his compound bow and heads into the woods. He has a range finder on his belt. Is he hunting?

A guy walks out his back door and heads for the woods with his open sighted .30-30 rifle. He has a canteen and a little lunch in a small fanny pack. Is he hunting?

I guy walks of his house with his scope sighted rifle and a few things to nibble on a few hundred yards from his house and climbs up into his tree stand. Is he hunting?

A guy drives to the woods in his pickup. He gets out and grabs his .270 with a 3-9X scope sighted in for 100 yards. He takes a few cartridges out of the box and puts them into his pocket. He puts on a backpack which has a rangefinder and enough food and water for a whole day; and a little more if he decides to stay in the woods. Is he hunting?

A guy drives to the woods in his pickup. He gets out. He puts on his binoculars which he installed in a bino-buddy. He then puts on his backpack which contains enough food and water for a day. On his belt is a rangefinder. He picks up his long range 7STW with a Swarovski z5 5-25X52 sighted in for 300 yards mounted on it. Installed on the fore end is a bipod. Is he hunting?

A guy drives to the woods in his pickup. He goes to a clear-cut he scouted earlier in the year. After pulling off the roads at an abandoned landing he gets out a portable benchrest and sets it up. He then places a range finder on it to one side. Then he sets out a front rest and a rear sandbag on the bench rest. He carefully places a .30-378 Wea Mag carrying a Nightforce 12-42X56 scope sighted in for 100 yards. He can adjust the turret for the range at which he sees game. He gets out a set of Minox 15X58 Big Eyes and mounts them on a tri-pod. Is he hunting

Per ringman's post. Good point. I've done all of those things.

They are all indeed hunting because they are in pursuit of game.
The longbow guy.....well he's in fo a bit of a challenge. I'm a traditional bow hunter who is pretty unsuccessful but occasionally do make it work.
Tonight I was sitting in my truck, rifle on the bags over the hood watching a big field. I seen some does. I pulled up the leicas and ranged them. They were at 680ish. I dialed. Never pulled the trigger because I didn't think I could make the shot. I've shot game that far before. It's hard. But so is game at 10 yards with a longbow. Know your equipment and your own skill set and apply them to the situation.

It is all about knowing your limits and practicing to be the best shot you can be at the distance in which you choose to hunt. I do not have any safe shots where I hunt over about 250, so that is where I shoot most of the time. I would never tell someone else they have no business to shoot further than the range I shoot at. Heck, I know some boys up north of me in the MS River delta that hunt bean fields and are killing deer with head shots at 600 and 700 yards, but rarely see deer less than 250 yards.


agreed.

It definitely isn’t a once in a while hobby. You have to be dedicated and practice a lot.

Hope ya get your hormone replacement prescription filled soon.

It's as easy as "1000 yards outa the box"! What's the problem?

I'm opposed to some nitwit on the interwebs telling me what I can and can't do while hunting.

In WA State, 90%? of our fish and game board are not hunters.

We don't need these idiots giving them new ideas for restrictions to "make it more fair" for the game animals.

Enough already.

If you can't make a 500 yard shot with your rifle, don't. It speaks more to your lack of training and proficiency than to any discussion on "ethics."

Rant over (maybe).

So... animals aren't wounded/lost at "close" ranges? Hunting is no different than anything else, there's people you're glad they do it and others that you wish they didn't!

Where's the "LIKE" button when you need one?

"Rant over (maybe) - HAHAHAHA Now that's funny!

With a hunting career of 54 years and having hunted with many people for most birds and most big game in North America, I can honestly say that average hunters are terrible shooters, especially on game.

That was kind of my thought as well

The bottom line is you cannot predict what the animal will do, the effect wind, mirage, and your own performance every single time under field conditions. The farther the shot the more problems with it are amplified. Everyone knows this just very few have the fortitude to follow through. The most expensive rifle, bullets, and other paraphernalia cannot compensate for natures whims. Wannabes will blame everything but their attitude and will never be legitimate successful and true hunters. Unfortunately for real hunters and game that's just a fact of life.

Just to be clear, your aversion to 'long-range' hunting is because you feel the possibility of wounding is higher, correct? It isn't necessarily because you feel the animals need a better chance of being alerted to danger, correct?

I know this entire thread is just a trolling attempt, but I am still curious if I am reading your intent right.

Their intent is to start chit to feel better, somehow, about themselves. So they can look down their long pointy nose to feel superior. Like you said, just a trolling exercise....

Im a hunter and a shooter.
Grew up reloading and varmint hunting.

Have never long range hunted deer.
Not something I really want to do.

But it might happen.
If so, I will have practiced for it.

I don't shoot at stuff.

Shoot expecting a dead animal. Or I just don't shoot.

My limits, are my limits. They might change from current though.

Expect to play around at 500 and farther this summer, with a new rifle.

I just have to be a little bit sad for the OP...He doesn't respond to questions about himself.
I am not sure why...I guess we could make lots of assumptions about his interaction in a group he is obviously clueless about.
He has made many false assumptions himself, which has lended itself to some pretty funny posts, at his expense.
Does he really believe he is going to change things in his postings?
Does he not have a life?
I do not pretend or think my posts will change him in any way.
So many unanswered questions about this tormented soul.

Can I make an assumption that he is pretty much opposed to all forms of archery hunting?
Yet to use a modern bolt action rifle, surely cannot be legitimate hunting.
It is okay to realize you are not being rational or fair to folks in this forum area.
Polarizing a group for whatever reason, is emotionally immature...My sincere encouragement is for you to bow out of this thread, and give yourself to something productive.
I hope your anger and bitterness doesn't bleed into your relationships around you, but I have my doubts.

It seems he pretty much hates technology, and those who understand it, and are capable of using it, so I am wondering if, he opposes the new bow technology, which reduces time of flight and accuracy issues, at the same time being opposed to long bow hunting, because of the longer time of flight.

Is he just jealous of people who shoot a custom rifle? Jell-O-Spurt...
Does he actually believe if someone hunts with a factory rifle like one of his model 700's, that automatically removes, lack of field shooting skill.

I think that with his bottom line being "you cannot predict what the animal will do, the effect of the wind, mirage, not to mention his own performance every single time under field conditions," I think that Conflict-A-Spurt, should give up hunting and shooting all together.
All of this drama will likely end in a self-fulfilling prophecy for you.
A wannabe's attitude with this much anger, doubt, and conflict has no business in the field, especially since you have lost the confidence in yourself.
When our emotions get really high, our ability to be rational is noticeably diminished, but in that emotional funk, we think our clarity is powerful (Self-Deception)
I think there needs to be some pity for someone who is so conflicted, and yet does not realize he is conflicted.

Yes, I have lowered myself in this post.
I am both reacting and responding.
I think he likes the reacting part...So I will admit, I have probably fed the fool in him some.
I do not typically interact this way, although I enjoy sarcasm and a good laugh.
Hopefully, this anonymous gent (It is easy to hide behind a screen) will realize his words really mean nothing to the LR hunters here, but he has exposed his own inner world, which no doubt involves some things that all of us should want to avoid as a pattern of life.

I must admit, I Have Been Entertained by a number of these posts (not the OP's).

Merry Christmas and a have a Great New Year!

Let us know how things go for you as you begin to stretch things out.
E

diXspurt sounds like Gayandimal's sockpuppet

same type of feeling superior over others because of a pretend halo conjured up to excuse her own lack of ability and proper equipment

remember the bs about "real marksmen" where the twat was against scopes and using a rifle rest ?

now she's whining about long range hunters aren't "real hunters"

All because she said so

Inman - it's both. Couldn't be further away from trolling. The vast majority of replies are pretty sad being totally blind to the issue. It's the only way they can be comfortable.

I can say, after 52 years of hunting, and guiding over 160 hunters as well, that you are absolutely correct, at least IME. The hunters that showed up bragging on their equipment and shooting ability were often times the worst.

Well, at least they had you and me to back them up lol

That's fu cking hilarious.

I'd be willing to bet that most of us here are not "average" hunters, or even average shooters.

Here, on this forum, I agree 100%, the general public is whom I was referring to!

As well as people I have hunted with over the years.

BSA is probably right, but then again, I never guided anyone from this board. Most of them showed up over-scoped and over gunned (and under-practiced as Ingwe once added, and oh so true).

The mathman has solid ball bustin skillz. I thought he was just good at the Maths.

Well played.

Will do.
Be interesting to see how it goes.
Everybody has to start someplace (assuming they are willing to try/learn).

You can only start, where you are at.
Good for you!
You will learn so much, by just actually shooting at distance.
Having a mentor with you is priceless.

You guys are making a lot of sense. I've seen some scary stuff too. Don't know if I'd call those guys average hunters or less than average hunters though. ha ha.. I'm thinking a lot of us here on the long range forum probably shoot much more than the average hunter does. Not to insult those types, but those are just facts. We would not be here, if we did not have a passion for it.

I offer this little bit of advice to anyone I happen across that's expressing interest in long range shooting. Find a club near you that hosts PRS matches. That's the Precision Rifle Series. It's a nationwide disapline of rifle competition that has figured out how to encompass all levels of skill set and equipment with the goal of elevating everyone who seeks to move up their own personal ladder.
I would first start by just going and observing the goings on at a few matches, mentioning to a few folks that you're interested in learning to shoot long range, and just let it snowball from there. I have no doubt you will meet people more than willing to advise, help, and even share equipment when it comes time to actually shoot a match. I've seen with my own eyes several times seasoned shooters offering to lend a rifle and ammo to a new shooter. There's a VERY good chance those people you find to talk to were once in your exact shoes wanting to learn from someone.
You will find that you do not need to jump right in with a huge investment in equipment. Yeah, there's a lot of shooters that do go nuts with gear, but I've seen a lot of good shooters make it through a match with just a bipod and something that functions as a rear bag. The Armageddon Gear Game Changer bag is a superb multi use piece of kit that works as a rear bag and a dozen other things. Anything you read on PRS will tell you that your rifle need only be 1 MOA capable, and common sense tells you to use an optic that will get you out to distance.
PRS puts you in all kinds of situations and positions that are very "hunting" applicable. Quite frankly some of it is good urban training as well if you can imagine what I'm saying. I've shot stages that included pickup truck beds, shooting from inside an SUV vehicle out the back window and out the side, and shooting from the vehicle's roof and hood. All kinds of concrete props, piles of tires, 55 gal drums, boulder rocks, logs, barricades, tank traps, and even a stage that mimicked shooting off a rocking boat at Woody's in NC. There's a 4 story tower at Virginia International Raceway shooting range that we shot from and got a good taste of high angle shooting from up there. Just about anything a MD can dream up for stages goes, he's in total control of what his match consists of.
One single season of shooting PRS matches and talking to those people will teach you more about real world long range shooting than just about anything else. You will burn at least 100 rounds a match at ranges from 250 or 300 yards out to 1200 yards depending on the venue. It will humble you 8 ways to Sunday, and if you possess the drive to learn and take solid advice, and can self critique, you will be a competent long range shooter in short order.

OH NO!!!

Don’t recommend shooting friendly competitions to improve your long range shooting and hunting!

Xphunter will have a meltdown!

I like your post. I'd shoot or hunt with you anytime. Hell, I was just out practicing holdovers out to 800 yards a bit ago, while chatting with Gunner500 here. There's some good guys here, and some you know shoot a lot. Some compete, some don't. You don't have to, to be a great shooter, but there's something about the competition that is great. Sometimes it can be humbling, and it may knock your self esteem down a notch. But if you are anything like me, that only makes you work harder to get to your goal.

In this practice today, I am shooting with no rear support. My club requires that, in the longrange shoots we do. So, I grabbed my rifle that I know shoots well, and went to the range. This is one I threw into a Mcmillan A3 edge about 6 months ago. It handles great in the prone position.



Set the Accu Tac bi-pod high, because some of the targets are high on the hill. The first one is the usual 400 yards:



Aiming for the hole in the plate, I almost blew a chunk out of it.

500 yard plate. The hole on the bottom of the plate is there for hanging it. Just incase you were wondering:

3 shots into what looks like less than 2".

Good enough to move on. No misses yet, so move on to the 600 yard plates:

First 3 shots were on the target on the right. Sloppy, but wanted to make sure my holdover was right. Settled down a bit and made the 3 shots on the plate, to the left.

700 yards:
Center punched the big plate on the right. Holding 17 moa on the reticle, and it's pretty close. Plate on the left suffers. It did get hit 3 times consecutively, but the picture sucks and it's hard to see the bullet splash.:

The smaller plates are 10" in diameter. Still, no misses yet. On to the 800 yard plates.

800 yards. This is where I missed a few, but I was taking ammo from a different box. Using Starline brass, instead of the load I was using previously that had Hornady brass. Had to slightly adjust hold, but not by much. Shot 5 into about 5", but slightly to the right. On to the small 10" plate:

Sorry, the pics suck. Using my very old spotter from 1958. Didn't bring my better spotter. The small plate at 800 was a challenge. I hit it 3 times out of 6 shots. No one is perfect.. At 800, I'm holding right on the sharp point of the bottom reticle, or 21 moa:

At 800, I had to hold the left edge of the small plate to make the hits. Wind was minimal.

Now, that gives the OP something to chew on..

There it is.

The OP feels he is the superior "true" hunter, with anyone who shoots further than he can, a "wannabe. He also is the "real hunter" and if anyone does not do things like he does, they are not legitimate hunters.

Sure sounds a LOT like that Garanimals character. The one who was the all knowing "Xspurt" on sniping, and lectured the board here on what yardage true sniping began. At least until I showed him pictures I took during an actual operation in Iraq from a rooftop, where many of the engagement ranges had the possibility to be less than 1/3 the distance his imagination and old Carlos Hathcock style fantasy books conjured up.

He got taken to the woodshed and did his best to ignore any direct conversation or questions. EXACTLY like the OP is doing now...

What a surprise.

My God, what has happened to the Campfire? All this trolling and nobody, nobody, posts a


DFTFT!!!!

Both shooters that hunt or hunters that shoot should all consider themselves members of the same brotherhood who enjoy their common passion for the outdoors.
The degree of preference towards different aspects of hunting, be it gear, shooting skills, stalking skill, physical condition, etc. seems to make ones enemies of the others, and watching this kind of fighting in the internet always leaves me with a bad taste.
Those that enjoy the stalk are a not a bunch of illiterate bumpkins who cannot even read the numbers on a ballistic turrets, nor those that enjoy the shooting are a bunch of self worshipping geeks who can`t put a stalk on a milk cow.

In my mind, hunting is a challenge to beat an animal instincts while integrating in its surroundings, and if I shoot further than his security area I won't be beating anything except my ego. But this is just my choice and I always understood that anyone should make his own and do whatever he enjoys more or makes him happier.

Merry Xmas to all, shooters that hunt and hunters that shoot as they are all my fellow hunters.

I would not get too worked up over it. He's proven he can't shoot for schiddt, so he makes excuses and proposes his self proclaimed limits on others. There are people here that have proven they can take critters at a very long ways off. It's not hard to do. Those of us that have done it, know that.

Merry Christmas buddy.

Well said.

Only having to hold the edge of the plate at 800, is some nice conditions!!!
I would enjoy getting together to shoot with you. Hunting would be harder, but that too.
I know I am an odd-duck in terms of shooting or hunting at distance, since I like to use various specialty pistols, instead of a rifle.
We all have our unique weirdness, and this is one of my outside the box enjoyments.

A time most anyone could get together and shoot with me, is at WY-SHOT.
It always starts the Monday after Father's Day (June 17-19 2024).
Shots on steel will go from around 200 yards to over 1300 yards-No rifles allowed.
It also has a prairie dog shoot component-Handguns only. You can read the brief description from the link.
I know that most of you do not have a LR specialty pistol, so I have several loaners ready to go for the match.
https://sebrests-usa.com/wy-shot/

Im not gonna do PRS, but will try longer range w a hunting rifle.
Got two places I can shoot, 700 max at one, 1K at the other.

Have no ego to worry about crashing. Like I said, gotta start somewhere.

Uh, I think there is a misunderstanding here.
I am not opposed to friendly or serious comps.
I could have posted it incorrectly as well-I am very capable of that.
If so, my apologies.

In another thread, I did say that being a comp shooter wasn't a requirement to be skilled at LR hunting.
I put on a yearly shoot LR steel shoot, for the very purpose of fun, learning, and improving yourself.

I try to go to a LR steel field shoot or PRS match once or twice a year.
I also try to go to a LR bench shoot (500, 750, and 1K) once a year
Been limited the past couple of years due to three surgeries.
Even when I wasn't hurt, I have not competed on a regular basis like some do here.

A quote from my WY-SHOT page:

"There are a number of purposes of the steel shoot: Having fun, competing, developing your hunting skill set, since we shoot from a variety of field shooting positions or field rests under time and keep score.

We cannot give the complete adrenaline rush of hunting, but by shooting at multiple targets under time, many of which will be farther than what you would shoot at big game, each shooter can learn their limitations from a variety of field shooting positions (Prone, sitting, kneeling), and shooting off a variety of field rests (Bi-pods, back packs, tree trunks, and the like). Sometimes your shooting position may be awkward, like facing downhill when prone, while being required to shoot uphill.

But when you think about it, if you hunt, you do not always have the perfect field rest set-up, and at times you have to make a shot in specific time frame or lose that opportunity.

We hope to hone those field hunting skills, so you can be better equipped when head out to hunt."

No, being a comp shooter isn't a requirement for being skilled at LR hunting, but it sure helps exponentially more than it could ever hurt.

Missing or poorly hitting a target at a match would equate to possibly wounding an animal, but instead of dealing with a wounded animal, you figure out why you made that bad shot on that target and work to not make the same mistake again....which lends greatly to being a successful LR hunter.

I firmly believe that participating in such things as PRS shortens the learning curve, in two ways.

1) you are surrounded by people who are levels above you and if you watch them and learn from them you progress yourself much faster. The structure of a match keeps you from cheating yourself. Everyone is watching and just the peer pressure alone keeps you humbled.

2) the vast majority of shooters I've competed with do not have access to a range that provides the distances we would consider long range. Their only exposure to long range is at a match. You simply cannot learn what you need to learn without actually sending shots at distance.

It's interesting watching all the wriggling and squirming going on by the "long rangers" trying to avoid the very simple real issue: if you are launching mortars at 1000 yd across a canyon at an elk thats all about shooting....and has nothing to do with hunting....no matter how desperately you try to twist it. It's actually on the "sick" side of things.

Finding where the elk are might take a bit of hunting

I know I am I'm spoiled where I live, and I like it!
I and others in this area have access to a permanent steel range that starts at 200 yards (Set-up for paper targets at 100 yards), to beyond a mile.
5" and 10" steel in 100 yard increments.
The 1K targets is a 12" or maybe a 14", and then there is a 5".
I think the targets at 1100 and 1200 yards are 12"
then it jumps to 1350 on a man sized target
This is about a 20 minute drive for me.

If you aren't out there stabbing them with a spear tipped by a piece of flint you knapped yourself then you aren't hunting.

Yep.
Sometimes it is relatively easy, and other times it seems impossible, with a lot of everything in between

Love it!

I'm betting VERY heavy odds your main bitch & whine here isn't the definition of words......

Xspurt = has been under pressure

Excellent chamois!

Merry Christmas and wishing you a phenomenal and healthy 2024.

Interesting thread I shoot long range because I enjoy the challenge, there's no place close by to shoot long range so I built my own out to 1800 yards with big ass targets so iI could see where I'm hitting.
I would Wager I hunt more than 99.9% of the people on the Fire, but rarely kill a critter over 250 yards because our habitat is so heavy. to each his own live and let live keep shootin, quit bitchin enjoy it while you can. Rio7

That would be so cool!

I want that range for Christmas, most excellent!

Oh man, it was great. Sometimes I have to hold 2' off the damn target!! You know how that is though. I always enjoy what you bring to the table. Shooting those pistols always seemed like it would be pretty cool. I know they can be damn accurate too, as you've proven over the years here.

Says my ancestors: But fu ck that. A smart indian carries a rifle now.

Dang. I'd go broke buying barrels if that were my range.

That's cheating man. You aren't a real hunter.

Ha ha..

I killed a big fat whitetail deer at 97 yards with my bow a few years ago, a lot of bowhunters at the range said "How could you!!!!!" I said it's easy, have the right equipment, take a deep breath, relax, and let the arrow fly.

Apparently, you are not allowed to shoot a bow over 40 yards, according to some hahaha

Geronimo would have been proud

A couple years ago, a work friend of mine whacked a bull moose on opening day at 100 paces with his bow, his girlfriend (wife now) was there to witness the shot and stepped it off, dudes a bow hunting nut and practices religiously, he felt confident in taking the shot because he knew exactly where his arrow was going

This past September we had a 16 yr old kid drop a trophy bull moose at just over 1250 yards with a 300 RUM, ranged it, dialed it in and coached him to take the shot

And a 75 yr old hunter who has never hunted moose before or has ever been to Alaska, nor has he ever taken a shot at game beyond a hundred yards

He dropped a fantastic 64" bull moose at 560 yards with a 300 RUM when given the proper instructions for making the shot

Learning is a human trait, if you're not learning something new or becoming better at something, then you're a complete fkn moron

The type of moron who attacks those who are capable of doing something that he considers not doable, when that moron sees it being done ..... he then creates rules ie... "ethics" in his own thick head, that he thinks apply to everyone simply because he can't do & won't learn to do nor will he get the proper tools/equipment to do what is easily done by others

When I go hunting, I'm prepared to take a shot at rock throwing distance and can also launch mortar projectiles if the conditions allow, I'm "hunting" the way I see fit and as allowed by current regulations, some internet moron who wants to dictate what "hunting" is or should be ... is considered as a fkn retard who is incapable of learning

Real hunters learn and adapt constantly, morons are stuck in ruts on a single lane road of their own making and won't take the time to learn how to travel freely, when they see us flying, they screech and shake their fists angrily

But do we care ? Fk no, lol !

Please post up some pics of say.... the last 1/2 dozen elk you have killed.

Taking anything "Xspurt/Garanimal" says with any credibility (which he has none), is like taking advice on pleasing women in the bedroom from a virgin.

We need a pissing up a rope emoji

Friend of mine was a Cavalry Scout in the USARMY for several years and went to sniper school. He told us that quite a few guys didnt pass the course because of poor shooting abilities. He also said that most of the guys that made it had shot competition before joining the military, and were always giving advice to the other soldiers.

Competitive shooters are usually miles ahead of military and government employees in shooting skill

Maybe to an extent. I think if you make it through sniper school, your one bad cat. They shoot under extremes and pressure. The tactical weekend match boys arent getting shot back at. A marine sniper, especially one that has a tour or two under his belt has fired his fair share. I'm taking the marine sniper in this one.

Sitting Bull looks like he is thinking "It's the brave, not the bipod..."

Speaking of ‘hunting’ vs ‘shooting’, when I was in New Zealand in 2015 I whacked a trophy stag and tahr, plus a second of each (both females) for camp meat. I had only a single day left before needing to leave and my guide asked if I was interested in a chamois. Problem was, it was a full day drive/hike to get to where some were. He suggested we go the helo route and it would only take about 15 minutes once we were in the area, he said. I was skeptical, but when in Rome….

I ended up getting dropped off on a hot landing and then taking a buck Chamois that was running from the helo as it was bouncing off a cliff face. I then also took a female, this time literally from the hovering helo. It wasn’t hunting, but it was legal (and fun). Zero regrets. I’d really like to see how many people could have made the shots that I did on those two chamois.


It wasn’t my preferred way, but it was a New Zealand thing, perfectly acceptable there, and a hell of a challenge from a shooting perspective.

It's hard to believe how threatened so many people, who consider themselves hunters are when there is no question about the ethics of so called "long range hunting". They can't even convince themselves or they wouldn't have to be so defensive.

When you’re accused, you have to bring in reasoning


Please defend the ethics of hunting over a feeder in a heated box blind.

It’ll be fun

Exactly. I've seen that many times.

Ha ha.. He's definitely thinking something.....like maybe you white guys are fu cking hilarious..

Every hunt with a rifle is “all about shooting” when it comes time to shoot.

diXspurt doesn't shoot at game, it's unethical and not fair chase ! He tracks, stalks and crawls from his cave for many miles, then when he "gets close" to make it an ethical kill... he leaps to his feet & clubs it to death, like a real hunter is supposed to !

I tried to coach up a former Marine (current reserves) into PRS. God bless that hammer headed son of a gun for his service to our country and his several tours down range, but I couldn't do a thing with him past the 600 yard line. He tried a couple matches and couldn't get past his own shortcomings at distance. Too embarrassed and he walked away from it.

That's what this joker refuses to acknowledge. Hunting gets you to the place, shooting get you the dead animal.

That was good for a laugh Mike!

Man, all this Marine hate stuff... This place is a downer

No Marine hate at all, and can't possibly see how you got to that comment. The guy is not only a friend, but a co-worker, and one of the very few humanoids I'd trust watching my six....as long as he doesn't have to shoot past 600 yards.

I was saying that completely tongue in cheek FA.. Was just pokin fun.

Ok, lol.

Cool stuff there TI. NZ is on my bucket list for sure. That's some supreme stunt shooting there for sure, and can attest to how fun it is. I've been in a helicopter on my buddy's place whacking pigs, and it ain't easy by any stretch, and no "gimme" even with a shotgun. Sounds like fun!

Yeah, I find this "enlisted guys can't shoot very well" stuff interesting, and since I have zero interest in competition shooting I'll just take peoples word for it in comparison. However, I've sat at some of Hodnett's "shooting clinics" from service men from all over the world, and have seen them whack prarie dogs numerous times at 800+ yards. All this in the TX Panhandle where the wind blows to some degree every single day. All comes down to knowing your limitations I guess.

I've heard about a couple decent shooting enlisted guys...


Now officer's, never glimpsed one

Seems like the Marine Gunnery Sergeants can certainly shoot. One local Marine won Southwest Nationals Sling Division last February and has been on multiple Palma teams. Another went from Scout Sniper to running SWAT training programs for Maricopa County Sheriff's office in addition to a highly successful competition resume.

I’ve seen more good shooting on the internet than I ever have in the field or on a range…

Couldn't resist 😄

One thing is most Marines love to shoot. From cooks to the highest caliber of Marine, tended to like to shoot. At least during my short stint. I joined the MC just cause I thought they shot all the time

Now there's some truth right there....

The military personel I've seen that could shoot very well are all retired older gentlemen. Some even in their 80's. One retired gunny sgt (who shot at Quantico, and was very competitive in his day), and another Army Airborne Ranger were about the best I've seen. Those old guys had some skills, but the younger generation is something altogether different, from what I've seen. A while back, we had a younger marine show up to one of our longrange matches. I guess he was a DMR of some sort, not sure exactly what? Anyway, he walked away hitting 5 targets that day. I could go on and on about some younger marines I've met at the local ranges in Or, Washington and here in Nevada. They are generally accompanied by their women folk. Sometimes the responses from their women are actually funnier than their actions, or poor azz shooting skills.

When did being a Marine become all about shooting. some of you wanna brag about out shooting a marine at some competition. Did kicking in doors in a foreign country knowing damn well an insurgent was on the other side wanting to kill you a competition?
Keep patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel good.

That's awesome Scotty. Thanks for your service buddy!!!! I don't think we are saying all marines shoot like schidt. Of course there are some excellent shooters from all branches of the military, and others that have never been in the military. People are people, and being a marine doesn't make you any less of a person. I sure have met some goofy marines at the ranges I frequent though. It seems like they always need validation from their significant others. They usually bring up the fact that they are a marine, at least 3 times during a 1 hour range visit. Otherwise I wouldn't know they were one. Maybe the women get tired of hearing how good they shoot, so when someone beats them, they have to rub it in a little bit?? It can be comical though.

The AMU showed up in force a few years ago at our State Mid Range Championship. I wasn't able to take home any prize money in the High Master Class that day! 😳

Brandon Green set a new Mid Range Aggregate record that weekend.

If they fold to the pressures of competition, I for damn sure would not want them defending me on the battlefield.

You’re so full of sh it..

You are a blowhard that adds nothing to a thread. Go and smoke a bowl, or whatever you methheads do. Better yet, post a picture of yourself, so these guys will know you are a poster child for what meth does to a body...

Here’s another one for your spank bank. Come on, one pic of you with a dead animal.

I will add, one shot at "long range".

Who's wanting to brag about out shooting a Marine?

I don't see it.

The ONE Marine I'm referring to is an urbanite with very little "outdoor" experience, no hunting at all. Sports was/is his thing. He was trained in the Corp on an M4 platform and a SAW. He did his fair share of door kicking and killing bad guys in Iraq. Last time I checked kicking doors and smoking insurgents had absolutely ZERO to do with shooting long range.
This Marine never fired a single round in his life past 600 yards until he came to me wanting to get into comps. His failure to learn it was my first failure at teaching it. I share the blame and really wish he'd listened to advice. NONE of that makes him any less of a warfighter in my book. As I've said before here, LR isn't for everyone.

I've never served, nor shot in competition, but I'd think the pressure these guys feel shooting targets would pale in comparison to the pressure they find themselves in at war, wondering if you're going to get your brains blown out or not. Maybe I'm missing something. The guys I've seen shoot with Hodnett, as mentioned previously, make you proud to be an American.

Do steel coyotes count?

It wasn't that many years ago just when the internet started to really get to be a mainstream thing, that it seemed about 75% of the guys I met who were ex military
were " ex snipers" .
That is until we got them on the range.
Now, with the internet making the World a much smaller place , it is different- especially when on an open forum some guy starts up and you say, "Well, we have our 1K range going steady right now and I will be the RSO on duty tomorrow.
Come on out with your rig and we can have some fun!"
Cat

I'm an RSO at the local range.

Cops are the worst offenders with handguns.

Cop: "I carry a gun all day. I don't need YOU telling me how to shoot!"
me: "How often do you shoot the gun you carry every day?"
Cop: "I qualify twice a year with 100 rounds."
me, making the sign of the cross, "Carry on."

ANYONE in military camo at the range is suspect: "I was a Delta Force Recon Marine sniper with the Seal Team 6. I can hit running targets standing up at 400 yards with my 308 sniper rifle. I'm just here to show my buddy how to become a sniper."

me: "Get the fuque off my range"

Yup, and that is typical!
Our RSO's ( myself included) have more than once ordered RCMP among others off the range for unsafe firearms handling !
Of course there are some that can shoot accurately and safely, and some that are actually decorated snipers or LEO's- they typically won't tell you that however . They don't have too!
Cat

The snipers I knew in 2/6 were a mixed bag, from all walks of life. They knew how to shoot but generally didn’t know squat about their rifles…twist, B/C, etc.

We drank a lot of beer together after getting back to Camp Lejeune but never really discussed anything but the important stuff. Dirty, dirty wimminz. Good times!

That's priceless! LOL
Cat

They’re some quality shooters huh Mike?

Marine is a proper noun. Get it right wankers

I’m a little teary eyed Ted…. Makes me miss the old days kinda…


When life was training or libo…. Anything in between was [bleep].

They do set the bar high, as it should be... in that match I think I only outscored one of the several in attendance.

Pretty sure I capitalized Marine, apologies if otherwise.

We have Marines come over from the west side to shoot high power on our 1,000 yard range. Out to 600 with iron sights and they are ALWAYS competitive.

It’s said the US rifle team comes out to our range (Rattlesnake Mountain Rose Iris range) to practice in the wind.

If you can shoot the wind here, you should be able to shoot it anywhere. Been RSO-ing a few matches where the flags at 200 and 600 were in opposite directions, and the 400 was non committal.

I have heard Rattlesnake mentioned a time or two. Usually it involves the phrase "a Rattlesnake clean" that being when they pull the targets at 1000 and they all come up as misses due to a fast wind shift 😲

Several USNRT members are local and they spend a lot of time here at Ben Avery and Raton which also has some tricky winds. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Rattlesnake is in their rotation. With the World Championships in in South Africa this March, 6 or 7 members of the US Palma Team were shooting at our State Palma Championships at the beginning of the month.

There’s no wind flags in the field while hunting and certainly no wind flags in any PRS or Practical Rifle Match

There’s also a lack of concrete benches and flat areas to shoot everything from prone

🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗

Wasn't directed at you buddy

My SAR team has trained (land nav) with the guys from the Army Mountain Warfare School at Ethan Allen Firing Range. One of the fun things to do at lunch break is wander around the training hall and check out all the pictures of the guys from the National Guard Biathlon Team competing in the Olympics. The National Team lives and trains right there. Those guys can shoot. I don't know about Marines but my cousin (Army) likes to out shoot me with my own rifle whenever we shoot together just because he can.

I always thought biathlon was good training for how I hunt, particularly hitting when winded and with an elevated heart rate. I've run a few primitive biathlons (snowshoes and muzzleloaders) and placed decently. Maybe PRS is better for western hunting?

National Team guy:



My sorry ass trying to shoot like him:

Bsa is a good feller. Not poking fun at him. He knows his stuff for sure. So does Camuglia, usually enjoy whatever his opinion is as well as Burns.

But spank bank? I'm using that one. That's schit is hilarious.

Hard copy Rick.

Comment wasn't comparing shooting on a range to hunting or PRS, just a comment about Marines competing with services rifles and being good marksman.

Great pic One Eye!

Went on my 4th annual elk hunt this fall. No elk for me this year. We added a 4th to our group this year, my friend’s first elk hunt. He bought himself a nice 7PRC and was pumped up. Ended up shooting a rag horn across a canyon at 786 yards, broadside. Problem was, he hit it through the rear quarters. Fortunately the steepness of the slope facilitated a straight down evasion maneuver by the bull. I found him the next morning and put him out of his misery with my 44 mag. Poor thing.

Not saying people shouldn’t hunt at those ranges. If it’s legal, great. But I think there is way too much emphasis on shooting long range today, particularly in the world of newer hunters.

Youngsters goin....my dads dick is bigger than your dads dick!

Pathetic

Jeffrey -- "If it's legal great" What the hell is your logic? Create a mess like that just because it's legal? Would it be the same outcome if he had closed the distance by 500 yards? Like a real hunter would have done. Or if he couldn't do that try another day? Like a real hunter.

I think your quote doesn't hold water or work unless you put in the rest of his sentence about too .uch emphasis on longer distances not working for newer hunters.
Cat

Cherry Pickin'.....

So just for clarity of your opinion, stance, logic, etc, 500 yards is peachy fine for the "real hunter", no?

You do realize that 500 yards is about 300 yards further than most of you "real hunters" should even attempt a shot.

He said "close the distance BY 500", since you glazed over that

I dunno, like he glossed over the rest of the context of the comment?

Still 86 or so yards beyond what most "real hunters" are comfy with.

To clarify my comment on legality…

How many animals are wounded every year by archery equipment? A lot. Should we outlaw it? Should we call bow hunters pathetic because they wounded an animal? No. I support all forms of legal hunting and we as hunters should avoid the “my way of hunting is better than yours” arguments, IMO.

My buddy made a bad call when he made that shot. I wouldn’t call it ethical and I constructively counseled him on his decision and the outcome. We were happy to recover his bull and bring home good meat, but the way it all happened needs to be avoided in the future. He knows he messed up and has verbalized that. I chalk it up to excitement and lack of experience. He has that experience now.

When we look at all the cutting edge cartridges being developed and marketed, like my buddy’s 7PRC, they sell based on ballistic performance at ranges that I think very few hunters have any business shooting at medium or large game. That’s what I was referring to when I said that much of hunting marketing and writing is geared toward now. Take this forum for instance. We have a forum dedicated to long range hunting, but not still hunting or spot and stalk hunting. Go figure….

You’re new here, so let me give you some advice. Take the time to read something and understand it before you reply. Also consider that you don’t have all the facts and that when you start to make comments like yours, they are filled with assumptions.

The hunt was 7 days. 4 hunters from 4 different states taking time away from work and family to hunt elk on public land in a unit with a 10% success rate. My buddy shot his bull on the 6th day, at dusk. As I eluded to in my first post, and expanded on in my second, this was my friend’s first elk hunt. Maybe with that information you can conclude that your comment was not only asinine, but also that of an a$$hole.

Welcome to the fire. GFY.

Cat - nuthin to do with "newer hunters" only, you have followed the thread and know that.

I think we're giving this joker too much credit.

Probably a PETA plant to sow discord among those who should be banded together to fight anti hunters just like him.

Have seen MUCH of the same kind of divisive rhetoric he is regurgitating here while dealing with azzholes just like him out on mainstream facebook. Keep people arguing because when they are wedged apart they won't unite.

So far that SOP is working for him/them.

DFTFT.....

He didn't say it was al about new hunters.
While you are berating me for being misinformed, maybe you can answer this question I asked instead of ignoring it.

Originally Posted by Xspurt

"It's called long range hunting. Nuthin about huntin all about shootin. Get it right."
my reply to your statement:
"The problem with a statement like this is, what exactly IS considered " long range" and who dictates said distance?"

And while you are at it maybe you can tell us exactly what your idea of " hunting " is
Cat

GFY

Jeff - and several others, you are not even putting a spin on the complete mess which occurred just regurgitating the same old crap that will never justify ethically or physically the "long range" hunting that is being marketed. The only people supporting it are those making money off it and those not good enough to be a real hunter. All at the expense of the image of hunting and big game itself.

Cat - You would like nothing better than to crash this thread by turning the debate into a matter of 50 - 100 - 300 - 900 yards or whatever. If you don't know what "extreme outer limits" or just long range hunting is nobody could explain it to you. You support it like a lot of others and thats fine, I'm just saying you are closed minded and look like idiots. And if you have missed the point it's not "hunting" period!

No evidence from the OP that he is a real hunter.
So many broad strokes of putting people in the same cubby hole. Not surprising.
A lot of people who hunt at distance, do not make a living at it...Oh, that disagrees with one of your stated convictions.
Oddly enough, a number of people who hunt at distance, sometimes, also have the skill set to hunt up close.
Public land bull. Me and friend from church
29 yards with a bow I purchased in the early 90’s.

Yes, I bow hunt sometimes, but I prefer handguns of all kinds.
I hunt with revolvers at other times. This was under 100 yards-357 Magnum


I am far from the best shot on here.

Once again, you’re making assumptions. We put a lot of miles in to the find those elk and like it or not he did get his elk. 90ish % of the hunters in that unit won’t be able to say that this year.

I think you envision hunting more than you actually hunt. Just a guess.

How could I forget, a whitetail…26 yards around a month ago, with 14.5” 250 Savage single shot XP-100. No blind/no feeder/no bait/no agricultural field nearby.
The other doe was taken from 223 yards with the 308 Winchester (155 A-Max) both were heart shots from the sitting position

Amazing miracle…Longrange hunters do not fit into your definitions-Shocking!


Also this year---Cow at 225 prone Pachmyer Dominator (prone position)


BUT oh wait, buck antelope at 754 yards also this year. Public land, south of Lander, WY
15" 25-284 Black Widow


Funny thing is, a lot of guys here could easily show the same things: Short-range, mid-range, and LR hunts with a variety of weapons.
I know this doesn't fit your angry biases, but it seems about everyone but you hasn't figured this out yet

You are the gift (In a "Bah Humbug" kind of way) that keeps on giving.
The guy who rants and raves, but doesn't prove or show his hunting abilities or has not even attempted to answer reasonable questions.
Did you know the 357 Magnum can do a good job of killing, and has the accuracy to do so at 100 yards, and even further?
Tell me it's not so
Major assumption, by some: Just because you cannot do it well, does NOT mean others have the same limitations as you.
Some are worse, some are about the same, and some are noticeably better.

PD at 124 yards-44 Magnum (Friends revolver).


Coyote 90ish yards - 44 mag


Double kneeling with a tripod works to at around 265 yards (Dominator)

Good stuff XP’.

That antelope appears to be a bit of a freak Ernie.
I dont beleive i would have shot that one. lol

Good one!
Looking for a big boy or a freak. Found this freak toward the end of our time.

You’ve definitely laid down a lot of meat with those pistols!

👍🏼

"Crash this thread"??
What I asked you is your interpretation of " long range" and who sets the rules for distance seeing how you are the one who stated that Long range hunting is BS according to the thread title - in a long range hunting forum!
And just so we are clear, I know my own limits quite well but choose to hunt these last few years with equipment that has a dudtance limit of 400 yards.
That does not mean I am not competent past that, and it does not mean that I do not consider anything past that long range or shooting not hunting .
Have a great day , I know I will.
Cat

What is long range? That is a very good question with no perfect answer.

But here's a stab - long range (at least in the context of hunting valued animals) is anything beyond the distance where the target could move enough that a shot made with perfect windage and elevation calls would miss the vitals of the target. Obviously too, this definition depends on a rifle accurate enough, and a shooter skilled enough, to consistently hit in a group smaller than the target vitals at the range of the target.

For this, you need to know TOF. For instance, Kamo Gari's buffalo shot could be considered on the edge of long range in that particular instance. What was that at? About 200 yards?

Spurt-Worm never did clean up his mess, did he? 10 pages later...

XP,

I used to hunt exclusively with handguns and crossbows when I lived in OH.

I remember the buck who gave us the “it’s too far” look when a friend and I laid down and put our revolvers on our packs and sighted him in. 125? Yards.

Mark took the shot and the then new 454 Casull with a 2-7 scope mounted did the trick.

I hunted with a contender in 35 Remington when I first moved to Alaska in 1989. After being out with the bears a lot, switched to the Casull, then rifles after moving to eastern WA.

Handguns required me to be more purposeful and thoughtful in my hunting. Maybe I should go back to that.

Just to stir this pot a bit more, an old high school
friend who kills next to nothing, save one deer he was basically guided to and a young wolf he stumbled upon, is extremely against ‘long range’ hunting, because he feels the animals need a better chance of detecting danger. Not necessarily because he thinks the wounding rate is higher.

I have seen him hit and lose a fair number of chukar because he takes 60 yard shots at them…as that is all the closer they’ll flush…

Yep. I’m sure the irony is lost upon him as well.

Let me know which direction you go, if you start doing some handgun hunting in the future.

It is something I have always enjoyed, and our family likes big game meat.

So I'm an old school hunter with old school gear: rifles, scopes, etc. Don't own any of the new long range calibers: just old stuff: .270, .300 WM, etc. Low power scopes. So if I want to change from spot and stalk to spot and shoot, give me an idea of the gear I need to get started to reliably kill game 600-700 yards. Which rifles, calibers, scopes, range finders and give me a rough idea of what kind of money I'm looking at. I AM a handloader however. Sounds like I need a consistent 1/2 moa. rifle. I realize I will need lots of practice but just want to know the equipment needed. thanks

How do these rifles shoot off the bench?

If these rifles shoot tight groups off the bench, would you please tell us the groups on average of each of your different rifles typically do at 100 yards?

It may just require a change of a better optic for distance, or maybe bedding your action, and a new crown.

Do you have a place to practice at distance?

What type of terrain do you typically hunt in?

When I first started deer hunting in the mid 60's and in the SE 100 yards was a long shot and most hunting was in heavy brush. Running dogs was common and wounding deer while taking running shots happened often. Ethical? I knew many folks who maintained they were deadly on game but could not shoot paper. Off a bench or other wise. I have met many folks who could shoot well off of a bench but were semi hopless off hand. I have never met anyone that was good off hand who was not at least acceptable off of a bench. Long way to say skill levels differ along with what each of us consider real hunting.

Methinks he hit a nerve...

Fu ck, that. That is about the most retarded line of thinking in this entire debate and I'm doubting your highschool buddy is alone in it. I'd never hunt with such an idiot.

What do they do, jump up and yell "over here critter!!! Now RUN so I can take a "sporting" shot at you!!"

I don't want the critters to know I'm even in the fu cking world when I take my shot, whether it's 9 feet with a muzzleloader or 600 yard with a 300WM. Clueless that danger is about to put them in my truck bed. For fu cks sake already.

Heart THUMPING 9 feet. Walked straight to me from 200 yards across that broom sage field, shot from a brush blind, peak of the rut......

mr. xphunter: In response to your questions: the rifles I use the most typically shoot around an inch at 100 yds. sometimes a little less, sometimes a bit more: all handloads. I suspect they can shoot better than I can. I don't do lots and lots of load development as those loads have worked for my hunting. While I've hunted in most of the western states, in the past 5-10 years most of my hunting has been home (upper midwest) or Alaska as my son is a guide up there. As I said, my rifles are old school: wood stocks, traditional calibers, old school twist barrels, 1-10 in both .270s and .300 however the .300 and one of the .270s are custom barrels, and have been bedded. I shoot in my backyard (literally) and could shoot to about 450 yards but don't. So there you have it: old school equipment that works well but is far from having the capability of 600-700 yd. killing shots. Hence my original questions.

Grouse, I have been a handloader and shooter for well over 60 years. My pals, older than I, when I was a kid were shooting deer at 800 to 1000 yards, so this is nothing new.
As far as equipment, you probably have it with maybe the addition of a range finder and good scope and lots of rounds. One of my last students who is close 40 years old now just sent me a photo of an elk he killed at 1004 yards, his rifle a 700 in .300WM. He has been shooting since he was probably six years old. He has a slew of rifles mostly 7mags. and ,300s. But some small rounds as well. Earlier this year, he shot his bull at over 700 yards with an old .340 I made on a 700 action.But he shoots all the time and his girls are great spotters. If you have the time money and effort you probably have enough rifles now. But in shooting game, a spotter is very important I feel.

Hi xphunter, all of the critters you posted with your long-range handgun are truly remarkable and outstanding!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

Thanks!
I do almost all of my hunting with some kind of a handgun. Every once in a while, I will use a bow.

As for me,, I long ago have decided to just watch my own bobber.

Long range is that distance that the shooter can't keep 100% of his rounds fired into 1/2 MOA! If 1000 yards inside a 5" circle!

That would eliminate 98% of people shooting at 100 yds and under let alone farther.....That would be approx 1/8" groups at 25 yds or 1/4" at 50 yds.

I would never agree to this kind of definition.
A more realistic way of looking at things, is can you keep your cold bore shot inside the vital area (this will be a different size depending on the animal) of whatever big game animal you are hunting, from a field shooting position.

Agreed, a Moose's vitals area is way bigger than 5" as is a Deer's.

That's because you're not a shooter! Sometimes the twain meet; a shooter and a hunter but the average guy that could buy a box of 20 cartridges and use them for 20 years isn't a shooter. But the problem lies with the hunter.....that thinks he's a shooter!

I am not a shooter?
Well, at least I know now 🤣
I have been using the same box of 30-30 CoreLokt’s for the last 15 years now…you don’t think my 2x Simmons scope is up to the task???

What number of shots are you talking about at 1K for a group of 1/2 MOA (5” or less-Shooter’s MOA)
@Sharpsman?
3-Shots?
5-Shots?
10-Shots?
15-Shots?
20-Shots?
Describe your rifle and field shooting position Mr. Shooter?

Yada yada yada!

Just about what expected from you

XP you seem like a reasonable and thoughtful person. Thank you for sharing your photos and experiences with us. Please have a wonderful 2024 filled with shooting, hunting and all kinds of other good times.

I have done a lot of bow hunting, I only wish I could have the opportunity to shoot big game with a hang gun, must be really cool. But where I live, if I got caught in the bush hunting with a handgun, I would be convicted in court and get a life sentence, without parole. Canada is a "Ruined Nation".

Oh, but I can carry a shotgun for self-defence, which is weird considering a shotgun is way deadlier than a handgun, if you know what I mean.

+1

+2

I will also add xphunter is a class act as well.

The guy from Louisiana is trying to school the guy from Wyoming about LR hunting?

Thanks.
I try to be reasonable.
Next up for me is some night hunting (hopefully if schedules cooperate).
Shooting from a tripod standing, with a center-grip single-shot H-S Precision HSP, chambered in 6mm Creedmoor.
Coyotes, fox, and hogs are on the menu.
Shots shouldn’t be over 300 yards.
108 ELD-M’s

Sounds interesting!!



Have fun and if you are inclined there a lot of us here (the campfire) who really enjoy good stories; which yours most definitely are.

To live in a country that will not allow handguns to be carried and to be used for hunting, would be very frustrating, to say the least.
I would probably bowhunt more if I lived there or with BP.
When we visited New Zealand, I hunted with a rifle, as it was illegal to hunt with a handgun there too.
A borrowed rifle that is set up well works good though - 624 yards.

My other rifle hunting has been typically been at night, and has not involved distance. In fact, I don't think it has surpassed 300 yards. On steel I have shot at 500 yards at night, and that was quite easy.
Now with a thermal scope, I will be using specialty pistols at night too in the future.

Thank you.
Will do.
It won't probably involve distance though.

The Long Range Shooting Forum!

Jeez, it ain't been that cold this winter for the cabin fever threads to be this involved................

I grew up with a dad who taught me the basics of reloading and good shooting. He was an excellent teacher and I've always been a pretty good student. After I graduated college, got married, and moved away from home, I started to branch out a bit. I ended up at one point with an FN PBR XP in .308 Win with a 26" barrel and I wanted to see what it could do. I worked up an excellent load with it, IIRC, 46 gr. Varget behind a 165 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, for hunting. At the time I had a couple of places where I could stretch out to 700 yards shooting at plates and milk jugs. I had a 6.5-20x44 Nikon UCC scope on it that adjusted beautifully for turning turrets and I was confident on anything out to 700 yards.
At that time we hunted west of Pierre, South Dakota every year, chasing mulies and whitetails. I brought that rifle with me after I'd gained a high level of confidence in it. We were glassing and watching some mulies down in a flat below. I put the LRF on the nicest buck in the bunch. 632 yards. Dad and Harry (the ranch owner) were trying to work out a stalk on them for me to run while dad and mom posted in the likeliest place for them to travel on if they decided to move or if I blew the stalk. I had been hunting this country for over a decade and knew that stalking would have worked perfectly fine. But I had acquired new skills with a new rifle and wanted to try them out. As they were trying to figure out how to send me, I got into prone position and dialed in the elevation. They both noticed what I was doing and assumed I was just looking at them with my 20x scope. I settled in and said, "Might want to plug your ears." Dad just about came unglued. 300 yards was a long shot in his book. But he didn't prevent what I was doing. I squeezed off the shot. The bullet slap was like hitting a bass drum and the buck donkey kicked, then we heard the bullet impact, and watched him go on a dead run for about 50 yards before piling up. The other deer startled, but had no idea what had happened. Dad asked me what the hell I thought I was doing. "Filling tags, dad. Filling tags. Shall I shoot another?" Mom laughed and said, "You can fill my tag." So I then lined up on the biggest doe while dad was protesting and told him to plug his ears again. I squeezed off - same result.

Is it long range shooting? Yes. Is it as long as some of you guys shoot? No. But dad didn't argue with me any more about taking shots over 400 yards. Previously my longest kill had been 427 yards with a M70 FWT .30-06 with the same 165 gr. NBT. I was sitting with mom and dad SW of Watertown, SD and a nice buck was lolligagging in the pasture with no way of stalking him. I sat down and used a fence corner post structure as a rest. Squeezed off the first shot, heard the impact as the buck turned 180 degrees. I shot him a second time and he just laid down. Both were within 2" of one another through the lungs. Dad just shook his head and accused me of trickshooting. "If I did it twice is it really a trick shot?"

The point being, why quibble about the distance at one kills an animal? If one is proficient at a given yardage, is it truly unethical? Now I hunt Iowa whitetails during the late muzzleloader season with an XP-100 in .350 Rem Mag. I have no qualms about a 300 yard shot with that setup. But when I share with other hunters in the area what I do and the distances we kill deer at with single shot pistols, they think I'm filling them full of BS.

Why

Do you need anger mgt. class?

Do feel like you would want to hurt yourself or someone else?

Do you vote democrat?

Maybe, just maybe you could use a nap.

Hard to understand why all these fantastic LR shooters that post on this forum never entered any competitive shooting events like the Wimbledon Cup at Camp Perry? My guess is because they’re basically FULL OF BULLSHIT!

Years ago I was told by the owner of Bob's Accuracy Shop I was the beset long range shooter he ever saw. By then I already was soured on official group competition.

Years before that I took my Freedom Arms .454 to a silhouette match. I was used to hitting jack rabbits beyond 100 yards regularly. I was surprised at how large the targets looked. I used the .454 for all kinds of hunting and started to use my hunting stance. Someone told me where to start. Some clown came over and interrupted me with,
"Hey, you can't use an artificial rest." I was holding the bottom of the pistol grip on the fat part of my left hand with my left elbow against my chest like I saw rifle shooters doing.
"What? That's me!" I argued.
"Well, here that is an artificial rest," he continued.
I looked around and saw some guys laying on the ground with their elbow on the ground holding the handgun against the side of their leg. I laughed and told the guy I wouldn't be seeing him again, and left.

Perhaps others feel the same way I do about fun that is not fun is not fun.

It’s a real problem isn’t it?

Assumptions on other people's hearts...
If you value your guessing so well, you must be a millionaire...No?
Maybe you should head to Vegas and clean up

This argument is one that continuously makes me shake my head.

Some folks just aren’t into competition, formal or informal. No interest whatsoever.

That doesn’t mean they are or are not good at shooting, or even better than many who do compete.

Please explain in detail what the Wimbledon Cup and hunting have common, beyond shooting rifles.

One happens on a known distance range with sighters before shooting a long string of fire for score and that one is not hunting.

Also explain how a rifle suitable for the Wimbledon Cup would do double duty as a hunting rifle.

As you won't be able to answer it's not hard to decern who is "FULL OF BULLSHIT".

🤣

About 10-12 years ago.
A guy w/screen name JerryBoy on PredatorMasters website I think- commented on his shooting skills with an AR-15 he had put together. Some doubters [3] challenged him to prove his comments. They met up at a Gun Range and he backed up his online comments- the doubters were stunned by his talent shooting at long-range. JerryBoy then helped the guys [doubters] with some advice and tuning on their guns.

Another guy on [ArcheryTalk] same scenario but with a compound bow, Bowtech 80lb. draw @ 80 yards- shot mind-blowing groups.
Neither of these guys had ever been in any type of competition and both said competing didn't interest them. The doubters were happy to comment on what spectacular shooters both of these guys were.
over.

Don't forget manicured range, usually flat, and wind flags.

You got to witness Creedmore when it was a shooting position and not a caliber

There seem to be a lot more shooters that like to kill stuff now days than there are people who like to hunt. I shoot some woodchucks occasionally and when I do I tell my wife I'm going to go shoot some woodchucks. I have a hard time calling it "woodchuck hunting" when I'll be sitting overlooking a large field with a .22-250 perched on a bipod in front of me. Obviously 740 yards is farther than Burns should be shooting at antelope based on the gut shot due to "a slight miscalculation of wind".

+P

Things happen at all distances and not every hunt is over with one shot. I am not scared to show a miscalculation and how I fixed the issue to become better.

Here is better.

If you expect me to believe you haven't made a bunch more "slight miscalculations" that resulted in badly hit/wounded game but didn't make it into one of your videos you're nuts.

I hearing the same thing every year, Anyone that uses technology and methods newer than 1850 is doing it wrong!

1890?

1920?

1945?

1960?

1980?

Jacketed bullet, Oh my!

Optics on a rifle, That's crazy talk!

Nobody ever had to take a second shot with a 30-40 or an iron sight 30-30 when I was a kid...Ya, right!

There's always going to be slobs that care more about bragging {or making videos and selling rifles} than making clean kills. You don't need to add to the slob numbers by taking shots where "a slight miscalculation" can cause a bad hit and an animal to suffer because you're a braggadocious ass hole. I passed up a very nice buck at 59 yards season before last with my crossbow. I can put arrow after arrow into a 3" bull at that range but my target can't move/take a step/jump string while my arrow is in flight. I filled that buck tag a few days later from 17 yards where the odds of that were very nearly zip. If you can get closer do it. If you can't and it's too far to be certain in case of a slight miscalculation, an errant breeze or movement of the game, don't shoot. I admit I have taken some less than certain shots myself in the past and although they always worked out, I know I was lucky and I don't take those kind of shots anymore. I know sooner or later my luck would run out, an animal would suffer for it and I would feel like shyt. I will do what I can to avoid that.

Hott Damn !!? it looks like the social security and entitlement threads have made it down here now

🎯

I heard of a guy just last season that had a contest with his buddies to see who could kill the biggest buck with their lever actions and iron sights

He shot one at 80 yards


About 5 times

🤣

I guess them there slob 100 yard hunters don't exist either. Or should I say shooters.

So you base YOUR inability to make a clean shot at 59 yards with a crossbow and had to close the distance to 17 yards so there was no chance YOU would miss

And apply your lack of skill and improper equipment to long range hunters with rifles capable of killing game to a mile ?

there was a line Forrest Gump quoted

I'm sure you know it

It was never a question of "missing" dumbass. We already know about YOUR lack of hunting ability since YOU can't get near a moose, can't you read either ?

Because YOU can't ... doesn't mean others have the same disability

not by Forrest Gump, btw

“Never let someone's perception determine who you are.”

“Never be limited by other people's limited imaginations.” — ...

From day one of sending a projectile out of a barrel more accuracy and distance has been sought after.

It’s always been LR nothing new about it.

YOU can't control when the wind gusts any more than YOU can control what a deer does while an arrow is in flight. You can get close enough that neither has the time to cause a bad hit... Well, I can anyway.

We have a bona fide Davey Crockett on the fire.
Or is it Daniel Boone

Good for you to admit you're a poor rifleman that needs to be within rock throwing distance to make a clean kill, your honesty is appreciated ....

not many here have the balls to admit it and just berate those who can utilize their firearms that are capable of killing game at great distances properly

Do you practice inside a small barn so you can at least hit a wall when you miss the target ? If not, you should ..... It will improve your hit/miss ratio positively

Nothing mentioned about a rifle at all. Does ADD run in your family ? It's really too bad you never learned how to hunt.

So you come to the Long Range Hunting forum where it's quite obvious hunters use long range capable rifles, and you attack/accuse them of bragging then you go and BRAG about your short range crossbow shot and what a phenomenal hunter you are, the bestest and greatestest in the known modern world

I think ADD is the least of your problems

It's apparent from our conversation to this point that your screen name was poorly chosen and that swampTARD would be more appropriate. While I sympathise with your disability, I'm afraid I don't have the patience to deal with the mentally handicapped.

Haaaa, Figured as much, when confronted and slapped down, the big mean bully turns into a crying lil' byatch

Speaking of poorly chosen names, let me try.....

BlackFART ... just a sh itstain on the underwear of the 24hr Campfire Long Range Hunting forum

the "I don't know how to do it , therefore nobody should do it" kind of sh itstain

How'd i do ?

Long range hunter is a misnomer from the start as I explained in my post about shootig woodchucks. Some people have the ability to put themselves in close proximity to game on a regular basis. Some don't and never will. You don't need to be Daniel Boone or Davy Crocket. Thousands of archers accomplish it year after year all across the Country.. The joke is the people who consider themselves accomplished hunters yet can't get near a stupid moose. They're almost as bad as the ones who consider themselves accomplished riflemen but can't consistently hit a basketball from 100 yards without telescopic sights and a solid rest.

so how many moose have you shot under 50 yards ? How many brown/grizzly bears have you shot under 30 yards and how many black bears under 50 ?
How about Sitka Blacktailed deer under 50 yards ? or wolves etc etc etc ...,

remember that part in Quigley Down Under where the bad guy challenges the good guy to a pistol duel ? What did the good guy say after he blasted the bad guy ?
Post your answer in the comments below, lol !


case in point, I'm going moose hunting in Sept with a handgun then to Kodiak Is. in Oct. after a brownie with a handgun, iron sights n all

but this is the Long Range Hunting forum, so I won't be posting about it here

Kinda what I've been trying to 'splain to you the entire time

LOL. Give it up swamptard. I've seen you bragging it up about your cannons, your long range prowess with same and your supehuman hunting ability on forums all over this site. You've pissed in everyones cheerios that doesn't use cartridges that burn powder by the hatfull and lob bullets at game a mile away and have no leg to stand on when someone gives you some back here. We don't have a moose season here but we do have moose. I haven't found them particularly hard to approach and have had little difficulty getting within easy bow range. Apparently they don't find them terribly hard to kill in Maine as the hunter success rate on moose runs around 70%, which is more than double the success rate on whitetails here despite the fact that we have way more deer than they have moose.

Give up Blackheart I dont like your crossbow but do I fugging bash you for it HELL NO!!!
Or are you the new Fred Bear?

I haven't bashed your rifle sherm. Pay attention if you can.

Blackheart,
Swampdude has earned his reputation here. I won’t deny that but please don’t compare Alaskan moose hunting to Maine moose hunting, let alone to unhunted New York moose.

For multiple reasons, the two just don’t compare.

Oh ive paid plenty of attention. If you dont like the LR hunting just pass on by simple as that.
Next I guess your gonna try and tell me you don't put LR hunting and guns in the same group.

The hunter success rate is listed at 20% on Alaskan moose. Doesn't seem too bad considering that's a couple percent higher than the success rate on whitetail bucks here.

I'm a rifle hunter too. I certainly don't dislike rifles. If I did I wouldn't have two safes full. I do dislike slob hunters that take unnecesarily risky shots and wound game because of it.

Moose in heavily hunted areas in Alaska can get pretty damn spooky and be coy, just like deer. Maybe not quite so bad and they seem more clumsy when running away, but certainly they get more skittish than you're indicating.

I'd guess Maine moose success is 70% at least partly because tags are rare, and people who finally get a tag often put a lot more effort into it: more than they generally do deer which they can hunt every year. Can't there also be a 2nd shooter (designated subpermitee) when someone draws moose there? Even if they have to hunt together that will up the odds.

That, and since moose tags there in Maine are few and far between, the moose don't get pressured like the deer do, or the road accessible moose in Alaska. It is the same thing with Shiras moose out in the western US. They seem 'dumb' because they rarely have reason to run from people. I've been told the heavily hunted moose in New Foundland can be pretty spooky. The New York moose never get hunted and I presume rarely harassed if they're not being a yard pest, so it stands to reason that they're not difficult to get close to as you say.

There are more reasons, but I'll leave it at that.


Nice unmarked edit, BTW and 20% success in Alaska is quite different than the 70% success in Maine you tried to make a point with.

I've been around moose in Maine, Montana and here. None were skittish or difficult to approach. No matter where they are or how hard they're hunted there's no excuse for shooting at a game animal from a distance where you can't be 99% sure of a first round hit in the vitals.

Well BlackFART Sh itstain, you've seen moose off season standing on the roadside and now you're an expert on moose habits/movement in all 17 seasons in all 70 states ? a moose ballologist or retard ...... total retard ? or just a shi tstain ?

my personal success rate for moose in Alaska is 100% , consecutively for the last 37 years, a large percentage is solo hunts, two weeks alone in the woods, hunting, killing, gutting, skinning, quartering, bagging and packing out alone ! AFTER having put several family members on large bull moose AND doing all of the above to their moose, when the family/friends meat run is done , it's my solo trophy hunt & things change a bit

When I guide other hunters it's usually a typical 300 yard and under kill shot, averaging around 140-160 yards or so, depending on the terrain

When I go on my solo hunts I spend a lot of time glassing and never shoot the first legal bull I see, that's a sure fire way to ruin a hunt, tagging out on a barely legal bull the first few days out is for trigger happy, gun dummy shi t hunters .... Shooting the first animal absolutely ruins the potential for a fantastic hunt on a large antlered bull

My absolute favorite method of moose hunting is to locate the bull I want from above, get down in the thick shyte downwind and rake/thrash brush as I move in to the bulls location, usually ending up in a thrilling standoff of calling and raking back & forth at close range with zero visibility & then fast action at less than 30 yards because of the thick shyte, nothing gets the adrenalin pumping harder than having a 60"+ bull snorting, grunting and thrashing brush less than 100 feet from you but you can't see him .. Patience wins the battle and I take the kings crown !

The other method requires unbearable patience, many miles of hiking & many days of glassing and waiting, always waiting for the perfect weather opportunity for that perfect shot ... This is hunting ....

Remember that this in the roughest, shi ttiest, wettest terrain in NA, with brown bear populations at an ultra high level .... not some cornfield or ranchers cow field or blackberry thicket on the edge of town that you shoot your deer at a feeding station or off a treestand at your garden or off your fkn porch

Your "hunting" is nothing more than shooting fed, fenceline, "bobwire" livestock that happen to be called deer

Don't ever compare your barnyard hunts to what we do here

Sounds like you really need to spend a lot of time at the range practicing, if you're not sure where your rounds are going, lmao !

Then you better include the 100 yard hunters to, spend some time at a range before hunting season and see were some guys rifles shoot or comments " minute of deer or elk is good enough.
Your problem is you wanna say all LR hunters are " slob " hunters. Theres plenty of slob hunters to go around in each category you choose to put them in in.
How about we just put them all in just one.

Spicy talk, folks.
Geezer here, still hunt sheep , mule deer and our local mountain goat every year.
Steep country, often available cover but requires more patience and planning to make this play.
This is how we were taught, going back a few generations that predated modern rifles and optics.
The skill is in your ability to close the distance, to verify the horns or antlers are legal, sheep hunters have had their rams away because they were 1/4" short on one side, during mandatory inspections...by experienced Sheep hunters.
I can sometimes see the Sheep and Goats on our "Sheep Mountain" with my optics. I also hear the long bombs attempted , y'know rifleshots spaced long enough to make a adjustment sometimes 8-10-12.
Across a valley, or from the truck or quad.
This makes me cringe, my guess is many of those hunters won't put the 2 hours into crossing the valley to check.
More importantly, they could of likely connected with a wounding shot and just might of killed and left a mature 10 year old ram on the mountain.
This ram suffers and dies( watch for the birds) the shooter has taken a nice legal ram out of the picture.
The long shooter heads down the road.
I only wish postional shooting practice was the current rage, and the equipment , the rifles etc was the talk of the mountain.
I love our wildlife species! I sometimes love our livestock as much. Their livestock's destiny is secure, they will be killed. All forms of killing must include little risk of suffering to any animal.
This is not a video Game, folks
My little old opinion

My guess you and I are real close in age 63 week ago I still get in the rugged mountains after M.D.and Elk ive been on sheep, goat hunts. So because I choose to take a shot on an animal or pass on the shot at LR make me a slob hunter?
How about the bow or crossbow hunter who brags about those 100 yard shots?

I am older than you, 66.
Maybe that is why I don't recall using the word- slob.
I do know what I have experienced, worked as a Game guide for various outfitter's until I got too old.
I will say this, unless you are proficient shooting offhand, sitting kneelng and prone , able to keep your shooting in the black( 8 ring) you will wound Game at extended ranges.
I wish hunter's spent more time on positional shooting as practice rather than long shooting.
It would also make them a superior long shooter,
Shooting without dialing, wind calc , bullet spin drift
and the rotation of the earth.
Use you hunting and stalking instincts, or you will lose them.
God Bless, take care

comerade;
Top of the morning to you my cyber friend, I hope you all are getting spring like we seem to be a half dozen valleys west of you and that you're all well.

As another older hunter, I'm about a year and a half younger than sherm 61, who has also been blessed to be out on a whole bunch of grand adventures where we sometimes brought meat off the mountain, I approach some of it this way.

When teaching our spring BC CORE Hunter Safety course each spring at the gun club, the topic of "how far away can I ethically shoot" has come up since I started which was 35 years ago now I see.

My reply has been modified somewhat over the years, but more or less I'll tell the students a couple things, the first of which is that if they can hit a regular old pie plate every time from that shooting position with that hunting tool, they're good to let fly.

Now not 9 out of 10 times comerade, but 10 out of 10 when they're practicing.

We all know that there's a different amount of excitement that hunters experience when shooting at game and I'll ask them to be as honest as possible with themselves about that too.

The other thing I tell them is that they need to mark the spot where the animal was, head over to it and check to make sure they missed it.

In a lifetime of hunting I'm sure many, well likely most of us have seen where mortally hit animals don't react much if at all. Younger or less experienced hunters don't have the benefit of this field experience so I encourage them to be extra diligent in that regard.

One that comes to mind for me was a 2 point mulie that was leisurely walking at maybe 200 yds when I hit it with my .338 Win Mag. My late Dad was watching with binos and he first said, "What happened?" as he assumed first that I could shoot better and second that the .338 would knock it flat.

As I recall now comerade, I was digging another round out of my pocket it continued its stroll and presently collapsed, but I'm sure we've all seen similar reactions.

Was a good lung shot by the way, likely behind the shoulder as it was there I'd aimed.

Anyways that's just a few thoughts on shooting at any game from another older BC redneck and nothing more.

Best to you all.

Dwayne

Once again you wanna lump all hunter in the same category. How much do you think I shoot? What distance? Rest or bipod? Etc.
You have no idea we are all just LR bad hunters can't get close, no skill, just take unethical shots blah blah.

It is possible to do both.

It is also more common that folks who take game at distance, also take game close up, and everything in between.
Ditto on Jordan's comment above me.

Jordan;
Morning my friend, I hope all is as well as can be in your world. Hope the family is all well too today.

For sure and certain, I can safely say from our discussions that you practice shooting a bunch AND that you've seen many more animals hit than most hunters, much less a beginning hunter.

There's a fellow here locally who teaches long range shooting and in discussions with him and an instructor there, they've said there are younger hunters who do very well at the shooting part but who still have some issues out hunting.

If I could summarize their thoughts, it'd be more or less that experience level one gets after seeing "enough" stuff hit and react.

I've used "enough" in quotations both because I'm at a loss to quantify what that might be and then too Jordan I don't recall how many animals it took for me before a few dots got connected or better said started to get connected quicker.

Hopefully that made sense?

Again my thought is to just urge the hunters who loose an arrow or bullet at game to go take a look before coming to the conclusion it was a miss.

Nothing more than that.

All the best to you all as we head into Easter.

Dwayne

Listen up swamptard. My range is in my back yard. I shoot out there whenever I want and that is several times a week in the off season. I was out there shooting yesterday. When I shot competitively I not only had the highest off hand and kneeling averages in a league of 144 competitors, I placed in the top 3 at the State championship 3 years running, took high individual one year and still hold the record for the highest score ever fired in a match by a first year competitor. I'm pretty sure I know how to shoot and do it pretty well. Most of my practice today is done off hand where I maintain the abilty to consistently hit a 2" target from 65 yards. This is how I practice most because most of my shots are fired off hand at deer that are less than 65 yards away when hunting with a rifle. It has done me well as my success rate has been 100% since I killed my first buck 50 years ago. Since then I've killed somewhere between 225 and 250 deer by my best estimate. I stopped keeping track many years ago now and no longer have an exact count. My freezer is still 3/4 full of venison right now, the walls in my living room, bed room and reloading room are covered with antlers and mounts and there are boxes of antlers in storage because I have no room to hang more. Oh and one more thing. Baiting or feeding deer is not legal here and there are no food plots or farm fields in the State forest lands where I've done most of my deer hunting.

How some narrow minded people define a "hunter" is pretty laughable.

We considered anyone who could fill a freezer an accomplished hunter. Dad thought antlers mattered. If not for legal requirements, I would leave the antlers in the gut pile for the wolves to chew.

I have killed a couple of 4x4 mule deer, a 5x5 bull, and a 6x5 bull that many would consider nice. The antlers all went to the county dump after the meat was transported home.

Hell, I would much rather eat a doe or a cow.

We typically ride our horses several miles and about 3000 feet in elevation in the dark, to start a day's hunt. At the approach of legal light we look for game which can be seen from the trail while horse back. The trail is near the ridge top, and the view goes for miles.

If game is spotted a mile away, we ride closer. If it is within 500 yds, we stop, dismount, drop the reigns and kill the game.

If nothing is seen on the ride in, we have a couple of favorite look out points with great views, and lots of big rocks to use as a bench rest.

Both of the aforementioned bulls were shot from this same lookout point. One finds a comfortable seat and then lasers trees and rocks in likely shooting lanes.

In the old days, before lasers, we would recreate on the same trails during the summer on horses or on dirt bikes, while carrying our rifles. We would bet on range estimations off of the trail. Then we would shoot big boulders for confirmation.

The 5x5 bull was spotted coming up out of a canyon at about 800 yds. I watched him take a few steps and stop and look over his shoulder, again and again. I picked the point in the trail to kill him. It was a nice open saddle where four trails intersected. It was 400 yds to the trail in that saddle at just about a 30 degree down angle.

I carried a Ruger #1 in 7mm STW with 162 gr Hornady btsp at 3200 fps over H1000 with an old Burris FF 4-12 duplex. It was zeroed to be a couple inches high at 300 yds. At 400, I held just a little high on the ribs, considering the downward trajectory.

When he stopped to look over his shoulder, I touched the trigger.

The first bullet hit him in the aortic arch from the left side. He jumped two times uphill, then turned around and stood with his nose in the dirt of the trail. I dropped another slug into his heart from the right side. He picked up his head, and started walking away from me in that saddle. I dropped a third round into the pocket in front of his right hip. It also ended up in the pumping station. Then he walked out of sight. He made it about another twenty yards, right into the middle of a water covered bog.


The old grand daddy 5x6 was killed a few years later, again at 400 yds. Only this time he was nearly 30 degrees uphill. My first bullet entered the right ham, traversed the kidneys, and came to rest in the back portion of the left back strap. Eventually he turned and presented a broadside shot. I put a bullet into his heart, at which point he fell.

There was no blood in the thoracic cavity, as he had completely bled out through the kidneys.

No, I will not try a shot on game beyond 500. I know where to hold under at closer ranges and have killed plenty of deer at 100 to 250 yds. I don't have to mess with turrets. I know my trajectory. Shooting ground squirrels all spring with a 30-06 zeroed at 300 yds will do that, You only have about a 1.5 inch vertical target.

When you observe an elk traveling cross country, there is no opportunity to stalk him. In ten minutes he will be a mile away, two or three minutes if he decides he needs to run.

I suppose, by most definitions here, I ain't a hunter. Nor am I a long range shooter. I know my limitations and work within them.

Well I’m sorry you feel that way about the moose, despite it being quite the deflection from my point. I’d agree with the 99% sure of a first round hit thing…if not bumping it up to 100%.

I won’t endorse folks who lob rounds at critters without being confident in their ability, but there are people who can and do make 600+ yard game shots with much, much more reliability than many hunters do at 100 yards. Many of those guys with the ability also have the discipline to hold their shot if conditions aren’t right, regardless of the distance. I can’t say that with the same confidence about people who insist only shorter range shots should be taken or allowed.

Some people have ethics and other’s don’t, however they’re defined.

Carry on, I guess.

Whatever range you can be sure of placing a quickly fatal shot is ethical. Whether it constitutes "hunting" or not is a matter of opinion and debatable. I'd like to see someone who can consistently place their shots with precision under field conditions at 600 yards and beyond but so far no joy. Jim over on Backfire issued a challenge a few weeks ago to anyone who believes they can hit 100 one gallon jugs in a row at various, random distances out to 600 yards to come and prove it and he would pay your air fare. So far there have been few takers and the couple who have tried failed to maintain even an 80% hit rate. Jim claims he has shot with some of the best in the Country and has yet to see anyone who can do it. I would say step up and take his challenge and go prove it if you can. Last I knew he was still waiting to hear from you and would like to see it himself.

I have no clue what ‘Backfire’ is, nor who this Jim person is but he hasn’t been waiting on me. I’ve never made the claim that I could shoot like that but it doesn’t mean that nobody can. I have said many times here I am way more of a hunter than a shooter. I get bored very easily with paper or steel targets.

600 yards isn’t terribly far this day in age. There are a few people on this forum and elsewhere that I suspect could reliably make those shots but they’re generally the more modest and less talkative type.

I don’t know what to tell you dude, other than to keep an open mind about things.

Long Range shooting is a Hell of a lot of fun and very challenging, I feel shooting at distance will improve your shooting and equipment and loads you can practice from any position you chose at the distance you choose shooting is a diminishing skill if you don't shoot regularly your skill will diminish no matter the range, as for shooting a critter at distance that's up to the shooter hopefully they make good choices and good shots. YMMV Rio7

"Backfire" is Jim Harmers youtube channel. He is reaching out to a pretty big audience with that challenge.

I use my ethics, they are a personal indiviidual thing, I use my abilities, not yours. have taken 60 whitetails beyond 450 yards, dozens beyond 600, and a handful beyond a grand. you don't like it, don't do it just leave me be. when I do not recover one that I shoot then you can bitch,, till then mind ya business.
3 shots from my hunting rifle at a lazered 752 yards.

4 shots at 1004 in a 9mph wind

Yessir, Dwayne. Agree with everything you said.

I hope you have a Happy Easter weekend with your loved ones!

LOL.

He had one chucklehead that flinched so bad he couldn't see his shots.

Guy was shooting a 8lb .300 win mag and it was a 100round session.

He did not know how to dial his scope and didn't dial his scope. The fact you think this is an example of a mildly competent LR shooter show how clueless you are in this discussion.

I could tell he was a boob as soon as I saw what rifle he brought but I think he's probably typical of a lot the guys who THINK they're competent. I've seen way too many of those over the years to think otherwise. There's another guy that has his own youtube channel, saw the Backfire challenge video, tried it on his own at his locale and also failed miserably. He is a long time Western hunting guide and if I remember correctly was using a 7mm Rem. Mag.. I think he got 5 in a row at 600 before he missed a jug. Obviously you can't reliably place a shot in the vitals of an antelope at 740 yards. That was real impressive. Makes one wonder how many animals you've gut shot off camera over the years. Probably a lot more than you'd ever admit to. When are you or one of the other "competent" long range shooters here going to be getting in touch with Jim Harmer so you can take the challenge and prove you're up to it ?

T Inman;
Good evening my friend, I hope the last week of the 3rd month has been behaving for you and you're well up there.

Since I do watch Jim on Backfire on occasion, I was aware of his challenge.

To be crystal clear, as I believe you know of me T, I don't yet own a laser range finder and while I do have a couple scopes that seem to dial fairly reliably, I really haven't spent the time learning to do it.

However as you said, that doesn't mean nobody can or that I believe no one should.

This young guide from Wyoming puts in a pretty fair showing with a stock Tikka and Hornady ammo.



Again as I said to Jordan, my participation is to encourage hunters who shoot near or far to go take a look once they shoot with whatever it is they're hunting with.

As always, I appreciate your input on subjects T as I know you've put in the time on the mountain - well on the flat lands too likely, but it's a BC saying maybe...

Best to you sir.

Dwayne

Blackheart,

You’re seriously not gonna tell us that you’ve never made a marginal, non-lethal, shot on a game animal in all of your years of hunting, even at the short ranges you hunt, are you?

As always, you've got solid info to pass Dwayne.
I've watched people wail away across canyons and not go check the area out for blood, regardless if the critter ran off seemingly unhurt or not. It is frustrating to watch. In fairness though, it can be next to impossible to find a particular spot after you drop down, cross a creek and climb a couple thousand vertical back up to where you think the spot was and doubly so if the brush is thick or trees are tall. I'd argue in those circumstances you shouldn't shoot at all even if the shot is within your abilities.

What is this Creedmore?

The last one was in 2011 and it was caused by a deflection on an unseen twig between me and the deer. I had that deer dead to rights and completely unaware at 30 yards, my crosshairs on it's ribs in the pocket behind the front leg and under the shoulder blade when the trigger broke. The deer dropped like it was hit by a bolt of lightning. When I got up to it, the top of it's head was gone ! WTF ? I immediately knew it was either a deflection or my scope was royally fugged so went back to where I was when I fired and sure enough I found a twig smaller than a pencil shot clean off maybe two feet in front of my muzzle. Given the height of it, I knew it had been below my scope and out of view but directly in line with my muzzle when I fired. I was just lucky that bullet deflected straight into the head of a very unlucky deer. I could have just as easily missed or hit it in the guts instead as deflections are completely unpredictable. The last one before that incident was sometime in the early '90's and was another case of bullet deflection. That time by a blackberry bramble about halfway between me and the deer that caused me to hit it through the hips rather than behind the shoulder where I intended. I was shooting iron sights that day and just didn't see that bramble. At the shot the deer instantly dropped in the hind quarters and started dragging itself away. I pumped another round into the chamber and put it away with a second shot before it went 10 feet.

Agreed, sherm_61.

So, what's 100%? 50 yards, not too cold, no buck fever, animal is unaware of your presence, solid rest, clear shooting lane, animal not moving, animal broadside? Ok, that happens for sitters and stand hunters sometimes (for the life of me I can't see the difference between this deer and the deer that doesn't know you're there because you're 600 yards away but, whatever). But, even then, you're in a high-density deer state and you let 'em walk this particular evening. Then, hiking out for lunch with the boys you jump the big one at 50 yards and you see that big rocking chair (as Faulkner would say) on top of his head above his bounding, white azz and you have to take a shot. And, you have way less chance of making that shot than Mr. Burns does making that antelope shot. That's how 100-yard hunters wound deer. Or, you practice and get good at killing running deer at 50 yards (kinda like Mr. Burns is good at killing antelope at 700). Or, you only take shots from your sit at unaware deer that are walking by on that deer run 50 yards up wind - which sounds more like "shooting" than "hunting" as defined previously (not by me - you're all hunters in my book).

One of the better posts in this thread:


I've put in the hours to be good up close. But, a good deal more deer have been in the sights than I've pulled the trigger on because the light doesn't turn green unless I know I can kill him. Having said that, when the shot depends on skill it's rarely 100%. The meat cooler at the grocery store is 100%. Sure, there are unskilled hunters who take shots they shouldn't. It's our job to help them be better. But, when we decide to emasculate hunting to 100%-shot, zero-skill, participation trophy, consequenceless, no-animals-were-hurt-during-the-filming-of-this-movie play time, we will have destroyed what is meaningful about it.

OK, I feel better.

Yeah I have watched that one also.

Factory rifle shooting factory ammo without a spotter.

If we are talking LR shooting then using video of beginners shooting factory ammo in factory rifles is not indicative of the state of the art.

So when are you calling Jim to tell him you're up to it and ready to prove it ? Lotta big talk here. You'd think somebody would step up.

I stepped up a long time ago.

That's not 100 milk jugs in a row and doesn't really prove anything. For all I know you might put a bad hit on every third animal you shoot at.

Show us your skillz, player.

Or whine like a puzzy at those who do what you can't.

John;
Top of the morning to you sir, I hope your part of Wyoming is getting seasonally appropriate and tolerable weather and that you're well on the last Wednesday of the 3rd month of what's turning out to be a bit of an exciting year.

As I mentioned to T, I know a couple fellows who teach long range shooting to LEO, civilians and maybe some military too, not sure about that last client or not, but for sure they're not using factory rifles, though the ammo often is factory selected I want to say.

Nonetheless I was impressed with the performance capabilities of the Tikka with the Hornady ammo, as you mentioned too without a spotter. That said, he seemed to be doing a decent job of seeing where he hit enough to make corrections and then make connections, so again not nothing.

In talking to the local guides for the past 40 years, I know that it's their job and that young fellow's as well to do what I've been encouraging everyone to do, which is go see if the animal was hit or not after the shot.

In his reply, T Inman mentioned it's often hard to find a particular spot after crossing a creek and/or a canyon and I'd say a hearty "Amen" to that thought for sure. We've found it helpful to carry trail tape and put a couple big strands where we've shot from since sometimes it's been necessary to go back at least once to get the bearings on where the animal was.

For sure too those times it's easier to accomplish with a hunting partner, but knowing exactly where I shot from has assisted me a couple times hunting solo too.

Anyways just a few thoughts from someone who admittedly cannot do what was in the video, but from a teaching perspective find the subject useful.

All the best.

Dwayne

Those skills would be worthless to me. There is no place to develop them or to put them to use where I live and hunt.

Blackheart is a EXPERT----Definition----He's quit learning---and he know it all. Rio7

Maybe we need to see this again??

There is no place to shoot long range around here you doddering old fool.

I do this more often than a guy would think. Sometimes I backtrack 2-3 times before I put the puzzle pieces together.

I remember one spring bear in WY, I had to go back multiple times to where I shot from and get my bearings. That shot wasn’t but maybe 150-200 yards in a steep but not very wide canyon. It took a few hours to find that bear and it fell at the shot and slid just a few feet before being wedged into a down tree.

It's apparent that a "spine shot just in front of the hips" from 952 yards is an accomplishment worthy of praise to the long range crowd. To the rest of us it's a major fuuck up.

Now I have never heard a long range hunter admit to making a bad shot! Never heard one tell of a cripple or a dead animal off 500 yds they left because they couldn't find it either. Ever heard of a long range hunter miss judging the wind? I haven't!

Blackheart, Yes I'm old 85 years old been shooting sense i was 6 years old when my uncle thought me how to shoot and be safe with a rifle started hunting when i was 8 years old killed my first Elk and Mule Deer that year in our hay pasture sense then i have hunted every year and i've hunted big and small game and Birds from Coast in the U.S. and Canada, and this old fool knows a FRAUD when he sees one your IT! Rio7

You don't know your ass hole from your elbow gramps. Stick said it best long ago.... "what passes for hunting in Texas is never not hilarious." They don't allow "hunting" over the feeders at the zoo here so you Texas clowns are SOL.

PS

Put your tree houses closer to your feeders and you won't need to shoot so far. LOL

Things you hear onlookers say immediately after a long range hunter takes a poke.....


"Damn boy, the vitals are in the other end of that critter"... LOL

I don’t know if this counts but my brother took this bull at 675 yards. We’d thought about a mil of wind and we guessed wrong, luckily the next shot done quickly put him down with a touch more hold.







After getting to the bull we may have gotten closer or maybe we might have spooked them out. Don’t know but we practice as much as we can in the rain, wind, etc and agree, things do happen. I do err on the side of caution with big 7’s and larger. I don’t know it helps but it makes us feel better.

I’d much rather shoot them close but on public land in the west if you’re not prepared to shoot a bit longer than what’s normal you may not fill your coolers which is fine, we’ve gone home empty a few times. I’ve also flubbed a couple close shots as well I shouldn’t have.

I like to see and learn from others who do it close and far and in between.

Hope you all are having a great night.

Dwayne,

If one wishes to shoot game at longer range I would say a spotter is very close to mandatory.

Some guys simply enjoy hunting alone and that should be a factor in the type of shots they would take.

A good spotter is a "force multiplier" when hunting and I will take more difficult shots knowing a competent spotter is watching in case of a mistake, at any range from close to far. 4 eyes beat 2 by more than twice as much. A good spotter will see the trace of the bullet on the way to the target.

The video you posted is a good example as a spotter would have seen the issue quickly and given the info to correct for the wind and probably provided a better wind call all right from the get go.

I think LR game shooting should be considered a team effort to do it at the higher levels.


So quit whimpering about those that have a place to use such skills. You got your small world all figured out. Stop trying to fit everything into that small world and enjoy your style of hunting.

Dude, did someone hurt you when you were small?

John;
Top of the morning to you sir, I hope your part of Wyoming looks promising this morning and that you're well.

Thanks for the reply, I do believe you're 100% correct in terms of the difference a spotter would make for sure.

Actually when I look back at a lifetime of different hunts here in our local mountains, especially after a couple hard lessons, when I'm solo which is about 3/4 of the time, I do tend to shoot much closer.

Hopefully it's okay with you sir, but I'm going to put that, "I think LR game shooting should be considered a team effort to do it at the higher levels" into my Hunter Safety teaching "answers to questions" storage bank.

Well said and for sure for those beginning hunters it's likely much more important.

It occurs to me too that whenever I've had a tough tracking or even just finding downed game task, having another set of eyes had never been a detriment.

Thanks again and all the best to you this Easter sir.

Dwayne

Edit to add;

Now the trick will be to remember just exactly where in that "answers to questions" storage bank I've put that.....

Getting old has some plusses and some definite challenges....

Good post!

I think it's ego that drives excessive range shooting. That and a miss conception that it's the only shot you'll get. I hear quite often about the shot "I had to take". That shot does exist but usually it's a dangerous game animal attacking you and rather than at 600 yds, it's at 6 feet! After that there is never a shot you have to take! That is nothing more than an excuse for taking a low odds shot. Low odds may be different for some people as I'm sure some do practice at extreme ranges. But reading wind plays into it at long range and reading wind is done pretty well by some I think but not by most! I have been asked a few times to take shots I know I was not qualified to take, I turn them down. Thing I'd hate to do is wound some animal for a lingering death or even worse, loose it! But I'll admit sometimes getting closer can be a challenge but I'd still rather give up the shot than risk wounding. Down side is shooting game at long range is not illegal, should be I think but how do you enforce it? Simply have to hope the shooter is as good as he claims, few are!

Why is it the LR (600yard) rifle hunter put into this category, I guess in your book the 80,90,100, yard bow hunters don't count.

Well your wrong. Those guy's using bows at those distances I find as bad or worse. The good thing about it is there aren't that many guy's getting on the internet bragging about it and in turn encouraging other's to do it.

Well you never mentioned it, its always the BAD, UNETHICAL ,EGO, etc LR rifle hunter.
What does bragging about it in the internet have anything to do with it, how many T.V shows do you see guys letting an arrow loose at 80 yards? PLENTY

The guys that bitch the most about long range hunters are simply comparing their own shi tty rifle skills and pissing n moaning about those who can shoot

If you can't use a modern high velocity cartridge out to it's effective killing range, you're one dumb mofo

go back to the range and practice till you learn how to use a rifle properly and quit bitching about it

How do you keep the bullet from dropping?
You shoot way out there and the bullets got to drop some.

I must have missed those shows.

Yeah, me too. Must be a Western thing. Everybody in my camp bow hunts. None consider their max range more than 40 yards and the closer the better. One uses a recurve and won't shoot past 20 yards. He's arrowed a lot of nice buck within that distance.

Yeah I know all us western folk are just LR slob, UNETHICAL can't hunt POS hunters i get it.
But when it comes time to kill an elk or M.D who they asking advice from not you eastern type.
Pretty hard to take a shot farther than 20 yards when you can't see much farther than that in your woods.

I just said I missed the hunting shows where they're shooting at game that's 80 yards off.

Never said a thing about Western hunters being slob hunters.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said all Western hunters are slobs. What I said was I never saw any shows where bow hunters took 80 yard shots. No bowhunter I know around here would attempt a shot that far so if you have seen it, it might be a Western thing.

.



86 yards

I know of 3 nice mule deer 4x4 bucks that came out of southern Idaho archery hunts, all with 80+ yard shots.

One guy I don’t know well shot one at over 100 yards (supposedly) and I suspect he just put his 80 yard pin 5 feet over the bucks’s back and let ‘er rip. I have a pic of that buck alive somewhere when I jumped him pheasant hunting near Rupert earlier in the year.

The other two bucks came out of the Owyhees from a hunter I have known for years. I would trust that guy to take a responsible 80 yard shot with a bow way before I’d trust the vast majority of rifle hunters to take a 100 yard shot.

I guess that is my way of saying, I see long range bow hunting just like long range rifle hunting. Some can responsibly do it, and some shouldn’t even have a tag. It is what it is. I am not the one who should decide who is who.

There is NO SUCH THING as a "responsible" 100 yard bow shot at a whitetail. The arrows time of flight is way too long and YOU HAVE NO CONTROL of what the deer does while the arrow is on it's way. Most responsible, experienced bow hunters here will not attempt a shot longer than 40 yards with the fastest of compound bows for that reason.

Glad I am not the only one who has had to do that.

Maybe you should go back a few pages about the can't get closer, unethical shots, LR is just slob hunters ring a bell.
Everybody in " your" camp thats all you wanna compare the whole hunting world too.
Ya gotta be the judge and jury when you don't obviously know [bleep] about LR hunting or shooting

Holy cow dude, did you just glance at my post and make an estrogen fueled reaction? Did you honestly even read it?

You’d be a psychology student’s wet dream. Carry on, I guess but please at least try to see both sides of the issue.

Yeah I read it. NOBODY can responsibly take an 80+ yard shot at a live deer with a bow. I don't care if they can hit a golf ball every time from that far.

Phil Shoemaker 458WM 500 grain RN backing up a hunter on moose at 500ish yards. Leupold 2.5x optic. Dead moose.
👍🏼

Unnamed average hunters everywhere shooting past 250 yards, miss and wound more often than not. My observations.

The video of the marine who accepted the “every shot between 200 and 600 on gallon jugs” tells the story of the average person really well. Missed 2,3,4 shots and hadn’t gotten past 450 yet using rangefinder, good optics, shooting prone with bipod. I stopped watching there.

The only person who has the opportunity to make the right decision is the guy pulling the trigger.
It’s a free country.
F01

Nice shot, John.

These type of threads are never not entertaining.........imagine being an outsider looking in at the different view points...........

Should be called LONG RANGE SHOOTING FOR UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE!!

I ordered a MK 4 once for a ELR hunt in south Florida but it didn't pan out.

Hi Dwayne, I trust you had a great Easter long weekend!

Great post, while he was shooting I was wondering how the barrel heated up would effect his shooting. His misses were not drastic and from what I could tell if he was shooting at a moose or an elk, they would have been dead.

Also found it interesting that he shoots a Huskemaw Blue Diamond as I do, when I hunt Elk. He may have been missing the shots he did because he was shooting a Tikka lol.

In any case what I took away from the video is how he set up the targets randomly and at different yardages, great way to practice for real hunting situations. I will be doing the same this summer.

Here is another of his videos on "Cross Canyon" shooting. I am surprised that he was not using a Wind Meter.

Cheers ~

LMAO

Shoot the distances you're comfortable at taking, don't exceed your capabilities, and you will do fine. I do not know many people who enjoy wounding gritters. I know a few people that don't care. When that has happened to me, I felt like puking.

If you can take effective shots with a bow @ 80 yards take them, if not, don't. Pretty simple philosophy, one that I follow myself.

For someone who claims to be very much into bow hunting to repeatedly make these asinine claims that no one “responsible” is doing it is downright humorous but talking out of your ass is what you do best.

So Mr Self Proclaimed Bad Ass Bowhunter, have you ever heard the name Levi Morgan or the show Bow Life? If not he’s a multi time national champion archer with his own show Bow Life that is carried on several outdoor networks. On these shows he quite often shoots game animals at 70 yds and several times out to even 100yds. Oh and it’s a western thing? Funny Levi grew up in NC and currently lives in Pennsylvania.

I’m not the best at geography but I’m pretty sure that Penn and NY aren’t real far apart and no one with a brain would call Pennsylvania the west.

Basically anyone who has followed archery at all in the last 20 years knows of Levi. So again your FOS

What I am is a responsible hunter that is damned tired of finding dead and wounded deer in the woods year after year that were poorly hit and not recovered by ass holes taking hail Mary shots because they suck at hunting. I never said I was an avid bow hunter. I haven't "followed archery" and don't much give a damn about this Levi character. I have bow and crossbow hunted for a few seasons and always managed to fill my tags but I'm far from what anybody would call an avid archer.. Some of my friends are avid archers and bow hunters and are very good at it. They won't take risky shots and don't need to because they're good hunters who can put themselves within sure kill range consistently. What they aren't doing is trying to make videos and that saves them from having to edit out bad hits from taking those risky long shots.

You need to head off the the archery forum and whine there about guys who have more skill than you are willing to develop.

As you admit you have no experience with longer range rifle shooting on game so quit your bitchin about that which you know nothing.


Thanks for your attention to this matter.

I used to work with a guy who had his own 500 yard range set up in the field right out his back door. I listened to him brag about what a great shot he was and how he could consistently hit small targets and kill woodchucks at the far end of his hay field/range all the time. He bragged how easy it was for him to kill deer in that field because no matter where they came out he could kill them right from his bench on the back porch. Then deer season came along and with it came the excuses. Said he'd shot at a huge buck that came out at the far end of the field, was sure he'd hit it but looked all day and couldn't find it or any sign he'd even hit it. I said I didn't know what to tell him other than if he'd get off his dead ass and go find one to shoot at 50 yards instead of 500 his chances of losing it would go down and his chances of recovering it up by about 10 times. Kinda like if you'd have been 300 yards from that pronghorn in your video rather than 640, you likely wouldn't have gut shot the fuggin thing. You'll have to pardon me for not being impressed with either of you.

Good evening Blackheart,

At 80 yards with my bow I can hit this 50% of the time, the other shots are really close.



It's all a matter of practice, and FYI, a moose's vitals are WAYYYYYYYYY LARGER

LOL. It’s the “old way” and many of us have, and currently do it. Too easy to lose a spot, and this small effort might make the difference between finding an animal or not. Good standard practice if you have less experienced people with you.

It doesn't matter if you can hit a dime at 80 yards every time. Unless you have a deer tied up and tranquilized you can't be sure it will be in the same position by the time your arrow gets there as it was when you released it from 80 yards away.